DIY Gen3 style HPOP ?'s

Right now i have a spare 7.3 sitting in the corner of the shop with the IH ressi on it, and its begging for me to put it to use. I've been doing some research on the DIY Gen 3 and there is some info, but its scattered through out and half the time its in threads full of BS. I've seen pics of set-ups with dual IPR blocks, then ones that look like they are just feeding the HPOP.

I'm wanting to keep this as low cost, and simple as possible. But i also want it to be reliable, and be able to handle the 140cc splits i have now, and whatever i get in a year or two(300cc+). Right now i'm thinking about just using the gear pump to feed the stock HPOP, possibly with a check valve in between the pumps or between the pump and ressi. And leaving the stock lines and everything else in place.

So does that sound like a solid set-up, or is there a problem with it?

I know somebody on here has to have experience with Gen 3 style set-ups...

A lot of information you are asking for is either proprietary or was gained at the hard work of a very respected vendor here, so those who know are probably going to be reluctant to share for those reasons.

The SRP1 pretty much made even the DIY Gen-3 obsolete...

OP, your pretty much there. Might want to run some oil up to that reservior as well. I've donw the dual remote IPR thing and honestly, there is no difference and I'm on 1 now.





Important dimension here:





SRP1??? I'm so out of the loop on this stuff.

DZL JIM said:

The SRP1 pretty much made even the DIY Gen-3 obsolete...

Click to expand...

I was under the impression it only supports up to 275cc injectors. Gen 3 will support any and all injectors.

If he plans on going bigger than 300cc like his OP, would it still be worth buying?

Big Bore said:

A lot of information you are asking for is either proprietary or was gained at the hard work of a very respected vendor here, so those who know are probably going to be reluctant to share for those reasons.

Click to expand...

:whs:

And Jim, we have been really impressed with the results of the SRP1 on a set of 300 cc injectors. You really can't beat if for the price and on top of that you can retain the factory fuel bowl. This makes for a very appealing product for somebody who needs more oil(injector upgrade or failing pump) but can't afford a fuel system at the same time.

UPINSMOKE said:

I was under the impression it only supports up to 275cc injectors. Gen 3 will support any and all injectors.

If he plans on going bigger than 300cc like his OP, would it still be worth buying?

Click to expand...

No, you are absolutely right there.
I'm just going off of what most people seem to run with a DIY pump set-up. If you run really big hybrids then you can't beat a DIY Gen-3 if it's set-up properly.

But I'm not sure how many guys realize how much fuel 300cc actually is, and that's what the SRP1 has proven to push.

DZL JIM said:

No, you are absolutely right there.
I'm just going off of what most people seem to run with a DIY pump set-up. If you run really big hybrids then you can't beat a DIY Gen-3 if it's set-up properly.

But I'm not sure how many guys realize how much fuel 300cc actually is, and that's what the SRP1 has proven to push.

Click to expand...

Yeah after doing some more reading I saw that 300cc was being run with the srp1 and without many problems. You are right, 99.9% of guys will never run an injector that big.

i thought when getting/making/buying a pump, it should be based on nozzle of the inj first, then cc's.

for instance, if we use a 200cc inj as an example, and you put a 400% on it, you would need a pretty large pump, because it empties so fast you need a alot of volume to make up for it. but with a stock nozzle, you can use a stock pump, as it empties slow.

i dont know all the reasons why, as im still learning, but thats what i was always told. was i told wrong?

I've thought about a SRP1, but i wanna try out this set-up since i have a mock-up engine and the cover/gear. I just gotta get a pump and everything else then throw it on the truck once i do e-fuel. Injector wise i may be going with 300/200's or bigger when i get injectors, and hopefully in about 2 years bump up to 400/400's. I just want a HPOP that will handle the injectors i have right now, and the ones i will run in the future. If i have to get a different gear pump(larger volume) then thats something i can live with, instead of having to upgrade HPOP's.

Sure does look like the P.S. pump off a 60 series detroit but what do I know ?
Someone took some time and had access to sp specs and made a hyd. pump work .......bout damn time.

????? The Halidex pump setup has been available for many years from swamps....

Marty said:

????? The Halidex pump setup has been available for many years from swamps....

Click to expand...

You can get the pump for about $220

Tree Trimmer said:

i thought when getting/making/buying a pump, it should be based on nozzle of the inj first, then cc's.

for instance, if we use a 200cc inj as an example, and you put a 400% on it, you would need a pretty large pump, because it empties so fast you need a alot of volume to make up for it. but with a stock nozzle, you can use a stock pump, as it empties slow.

i dont know all the reasons why, as im still learning, but thats what i was always told. was i told wrong?

Click to expand...

100% correct.

I've done the calculations for oil requirements and would be happy to share them. I've posted them before but usually get responses like "that's too complicated can you just tell me what I need..."

I wouldn't mind knowing the oil requirements for the injectors. If i knew what the stock pump put out then it would help me pick a pump.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but all the pumps seem to be pretty much the same size. So say for the splits i could run a smaller displacement/volume pump since i don't need a ton of oil, then once i step-up to whatever injectors i go with i can essentially swap out pumps without having to change anything else.

Split shot's use more oil than hybrids do.

ITUKMOR said:

Split shot's use more oil than hybrids do.

Click to expand...

Even 300's? oke:

I wrote this in about 2005.

Back then we were using BD injectors and we didn't understand flow restrictions inside of injectors although I recognized problems even then.

You will need to replace my numbers (injection ratio, ms or pw to empty injectors, etc...) w/ your numbers.



"An example of oil requirements for stock BD injectors would go something like this:

My stock Alliant BDs flowed 244cc volume stock and the stock 5 hole nozzles on the flowbench at 2800 icp flowed that 244cc in about 3.4 ms if I recall correctly. This is important info.

The stock HPOP turns at 85% of crank speed.

The 17 degree pumps, pump about 7.2 cc of oil per HPOP revolution so that equals about 6.12 cc per engine revolution.

The 15 degree pumps, pump about 6.8 cc of oil per HPOP revolution so that equals about 5.78 cc per engine revolution.

Keep in mind these #’s assume 100% efficiency and that is never going to happen.

So you have a 15 degree pump on your truck and you want to buy an inline big oil system and you want to know if you have enough oil? (you do, but just barely and here is why)

Oil needed is easily calculated. 6:1 injector is 244 * 6 = 1464 mm^3 PER injector. Of course 4 injectors fire per engine revolution cause it’s a V8 4 stroke.

I figure the lowest RPM anyone is going to ask for full pw is around 2400 RPM (just guessing really) so 2400 rpms/ 60 seconds = 40 RPSecond. Which is 25ms (1000/ 40) per crank revolution. So regardless of injector pw we have one injector BEGINNING to fire ever 6.25 ms. (25ms/4=6.25ms) Full pw at the lowest RPM is always going to tax the HPO system the greatest.

Now due to injector constraints (should be the nozzle but sometimes it’s not) we are emptying these injectors in 3.4 ms. The injector accepts oil for this period of time but the rest of the time the pressure regulator is doing all it can to bleed off that excess oil. So that means that the injectors can only accept 54 % of the oil that the HPOP(s) are providing (3.4ms*4 injectors) /25ms which in the case of a 15 degree pump and a 17 degree pump equates to (6.12cc+5.78cc)*.54= 6.43 cc of oil. Now our requirements are of course (1464mm^3*4=5.856 cc of oil to run these injectors.


Of course this assumes 100% efficiency but just looking at stock injectors and the (lack of) performance offered on 1 stock HPOP makes it clear that a 40-50% overallowance is not overkill AT ALL. Furthermore, the higher the desired pressures the more inefficient the system becomes.

Problems:

What happens when the pw is so long and the RPM are so high that the oil system has to provide oil for multiple injectors at a time? PW gets cut back of course.

What happens when the nozzles and/ or injectors get really large and the pw is further shortened? Oil requirements go up substantially.

What happens if the same large nozzles/ injectors are not dropping HPO psi on a dual pump system when measured at the rails? The only obvious answer is that the injectors are not really getting all the fuel out. Maybe a restriction inside the injector is making the nozzle NOT the restriction (as it should be) and resulting in poor atomization at the NOZZLE where it matters? "