Some pieces of the puzzle

Big Bore

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Just some things being gathered. 1.15 38r housing and van turbo adapter. Twin pumps that will be getting a dual IPR setup and some reconfiguration to 4 feed lines and deleting the single remote IPR block and non serviceable plug repairs just for insurance, custom made billet fuel distribution block and fittings to get rid of hated fuel bowl. And a new Melling LPOP. Rods are being cryoed and heat treated as we speak and cam is being or is already ground, which reminds me i still owe Matt some money. Taking a block in soon to be magnafluxed and sleeved if it checks out.




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CSIPSD

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Leave it to Curtis to see pink out of orange...

I'm just going to assume you will make a rear support for that back pump. I know we had that talk... LOL
 

rat49f6

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u can blame 7.3 rocket for that paint i painted it for him thinking it was a van housing

its supposed to be red according to duplicolor anyway
 

Big Bore

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It is not red lol. Even my wife commented on the color when I picked it up at the post office LOL.

So I explained how you were substituting garish colors for HP. LOL
 

vanderchevy18

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I understand money issues, and dont know the end goal, but I have a couple questions.

The dual pumps tell me you're looking for some serious hp. If so then why not go with a t4 style turbo or upgrade from stock? Also if you're paying for the treatment of the rods, then why not go with billet?

Not bashing, just asking.
 

Big Bore

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I understand money issues, and dont know the end goal, but I have a couple questions.

The dual pumps tell me you're looking for some serious hp. If so then why not go with a t4 style turbo or upgrade from stock? Also if you're paying for the treatment of the rods, then why not go with billet?

Not bashing, just asking.

No problem man happy to answer. HP goals are 600-650, not really "serious" these days as far as I can tell.

As far as turbo's, I'm going compounds using the 38r as drive turbo, atmo is being discussed in another thread lol.

The treatment I'm doing to the rods is not the typical cryo treatment, it's being done at a facility that does heat treating as well as cryo as part of the total process, and the rods will be at least twice as strong if not more than stock, and I think significantly stronger than most other cryo treat jobs.

Additionally the rotating assembly will be balanced along with some other goodies, all designed to keep the rods in one piece.

My HP goals do not require billet, especially since most of the reason people were throwing rods at my HP goal had more to do with tuning than rod strength IMO. My prediction is in the very near future you are going to see PMR's holding up to HP numbers that were forged rod territory, and properly treated forged rods in a well built motor edging into billet territory.
 

vanderchevy18

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Ah! Ok cool! Just wondering.

I 110% agree with you on that! I mean, look at what has happened in the last 5 years. We went from 500 being the limit on stock forged rods to 600+ being a norm.

Good luck man! If you need anything holler! Sounds like you got it covered though!
 

Big Bore

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Good luck man! If you need anything holler! Sounds like you got it covered though!

You have way more confidence in my plans than I do. LOL

Feel free to point out any flaws in my plans, I have no problem averting a problem because someone spotted it here, instead of seeing it through a new inspection window in my block.
 

genie144

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When you get everything, let me know if you need a hand. I can drink beer and watch people work with the best of 'em. I can even hand tools as need while I supervise my beer.

Sam
 

TARM

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Big Bore,

You mention the rods are being reheat treated and cryo'd; I think this is a good idea and will help. No way to know just how much stronger they will be as you have no way to know the strength of the product you are starting with. Do you know what hardness they are going to heat treat to? I am personally interested as I have wondered where the pros have factored the balance point between the added rigidity vs brittleness. (much like we see with the PMRs) With enough stress you would likely want a even number to either break or bend at that point.

If you end up talking to them again could you see if you can find out the hardness they shoot for?

Will you be doing shot peen, polishing before balancing? You plan to pay or polish them yourself?

After balancing have you considered case or surface hardening treatments like nitrocarboizing. Its quite inexpensive as long as you are not stuck paying for a full batch price. For our rifle barrels it worked out to $3 IIRC per barrel but part of that was because we were paying for a full batch weight but were only doing lots of 200 barrels at a time.

I would think you would want them balanced before hand as any grinding is a real PITA because the surface is that hard. We ended up having to use solid carbide bits on a set that had not had the gas ports drilled prior to treatment. 1500 HV/ 65 RW surface hardness @ .05mm/0.0020 thickness into metal surface.

Then again you may not want to put this much time into a rod that dimensionally can only be so strong with the alloy used.

You going to upgrade to ARP pins studs etc?

What about 1/2 block fill? What about a bed plate?

IMO anything that can increase rigidity and decrease any flex or distortion the better.

Have you been researching into all the other little tips and tricks I have seen mentioned over the years on the forums and by guys that have been in one form or another of competition?

I have seen so many things I would have surely not thought of to do on my own until I eventually had an issue and was on the next build LOL. Its a great thing when you can learn from others mistakes or process of learning when they are willing to share. It helps the entire community when these guys offer up any info no matter how small.

Will you be doing the final engine assembly yourself?

Not sure where you are at with any of this but maybe this thread is a good place to see what suggestions others have?

With compounds you have end up with boat loads of low end torque so fast and with getting tuning dialed in makes sense to do as much as you can.
 
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Big Bore

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Big Bore,

You mention the rods are being reheat treated and cryo'd; I think this is a good idea and will help. No way to know just how much stronger they will be as you have no way to know the strength of the product you are starting with. Do you know what hardness they are going to heat treat to? I am personally interested as I have wondered where the pros have factored the balance point between the added rigidity vs brittleness. (much like we see with the PMRs) With enough stress you would likely want a even number to either break or bend at that point.

If you end up talking to them again could you see if you can find out the hardness they shoot for?

Will you be doing shot peen, polishing before balancing? You plan to pay or polish them yourself?

After balancing have you considered case or surface hardening treatments like nitrocarboizing. Its quite inexpensive as long as you are not stuck paying for a full batch price. For our rifle barrels it worked out to $3 IIRC per barrel but part of that was because we were paying for a full batch weight but were only doing lots of 200 barrels at a time.

I would think you would want them balanced before hand as any grinding is a real PITA because the surface is that hard. We ended up having to use solid carbide bits on a set that had not had the gas ports drilled prior to treatment. 1500 HV/ 65 RW surface hardness @ .05mm/0.0020 thickness into metal surface.

Then again you may not want to put this much time into a rod that dimensionally can only be so strong with the alloy used.

You going to upgrade to ARP pins studs etc?

What about 1/2 block fill? What about a bed plate?

IMO anything that can increase rigidity and decrease any flex or distortion the better.

Have you been researching into all the other little tips and tricks I have seen mentioned over the years on the forums and by guys that have been in one form or another of competition?

I have seen so many things I would have surely not thought of to do on my own until I eventually had an issue and was on the next build LOL. Its a great thing when you can learn from others mistakes or process of learning when they are willing to share. It helps the entire community when these guys offer up any info no matter how small.

Will you be doing the final engine assembly yourself?

Not sure where you are at with any of this but maybe this thread is a good place to see what suggestions others have?

With compounds you have end up with boat loads of low end torque so fast and with getting tuning dialed in makes sense to do as much as you can.

Ummm, what?:postwhore2:

Yes, no, yes, yes, maybe, yes, never, sometimes, no, yes, yes, never heard it, yes, no, no, don't care, yes, and I didnt know her age at the time.:doh:

Just got home from long weekend. Head hurt. Now hurt more.

Tarm, Prozac and decaf. LOL
 

young7.3

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LMAO^.I wouldnt stress too much about the rods. Worst case senario one gets spit out and you have to buy a new block. What are they?5-600 bucks versus the cost of billet rods. Plus stock fordged rods again 250. I would roll the dice with treated fordged rods. Tarm does have a good point with the massive amount of low end torque. So i basically have a nuetral statement hear.lol
 

Magnum PD

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I plan on sending my rods to Wide Open and getting them treated there. Should I have them shot penned, convection oven as well? I probably should have them balanced before treatment. Got the bearings, pistons, and crank ready.
 

JAP

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I'm sorry, but isn't the point of compounds to make a lot of power down low and pull it out through the top as well? In my opinion, it's kind of an oxymoron to have a fuel/torque limit and compounds. Seems like a bigger single would be more than enough for a limited strength bottom end.
 

genie144

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Tarm - 99% of people doing cryo and heat cycling don't seek to change temper. They simply follow the instruction book... Those that do probably can't or won't say. Shot peen on a cryo'd surface is redundant and waste of money. There are a number of surface treatments worth looking at... And they would HAVE to be applied prior to balancing.

Magnum - Shot peen is waste of money on cryo'd rods. It doesn't matter if you have balanced before or after cryo. I would recommend after but technically shouldn't matter. I am sure that Wide Open will put in oven after cryo - you could call to confirm.

I am curious about the low end torque question though.

Sam
 

TARM

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Torque Levels:

I think we are talking about different levels in terms of lower tq and thats my fault for not being more specific and clear. With big power you are always, at least I would, be keeping a cap on power down low @ low rpms where it serves no purpose. There is no point past a certain level. A decently sized compound setup with large injectors can and will make enough power to break stuff. It was not meant low torque levels like most would be thinking of that are running 160/30 and a 38r. Point being why beat up a engine with more power than can be put to pavement or whatever your use. Not to mention we are also talking about worked over stock rods not premium that can handle more power than any other part in the engine.

While I do not see lossing a block with all the work and prep that goes into the whole system as trivial maybe some do. I guess for some money grows on trees right next to the bush that blooms unlimited free time to work on their trucks. LOL But you can loose A LOT more than just a rod and block. The crank, head, cam, you name it depending how that thing lets loose you can basically kiss it all good bye.

As I see it and has seem to been shown thru the failures that have occurred the aftermarket rods go way past the strength of the 7.3 system as a whole. The rods will hold up past what the block and basically the rest of the system can take. IMO it then makes sense to see if there might be a lower cost option that would have the rods more evenly match up to the strength of the rest of the system for those not building all out comp setups.

If the proper prep work could be done to stock rods along with other work on supporting areas to reduce other stresses maybe a balanced system could be made and save a $1000 or more of cost. IMO I think when you stiffen a block up with things like: fill and plate or girdle which also aides the mains I think you also reduce the stressing on parts such as the rods. That along with using higher strength fasteners and studs such as ARPs kits. Fire ring with H11 studs to handle the higher and sharper CP the engine will see.

Then doing the small things that prevent those " OK Moth@!$#%#$^(@#%U#@" issues where one small little thing causes you to basically end up with a full rebuild.

Some being basic such as for instance: welding cooling jets to prevent them from dropping into the cylinder, Welding the cam gear on so it does not end up walking off.


Genie144,

Actually I had not though about the "doing it before or after" differences much before with shot peening and cryo. Off the top of my head I would have said before but I would have researched much deeper before having a clear position on it. I see the shot peening benefits, where cryo will be used, not so much for is deeper subsurface effects but for its surface layer effects. While cryo releases internal residual stresses as well as increases dimensional stability along with typical durability increases.. Shot peening effect of inducing compressive stress at surface levels which is where from what I can tell nearly all fatigue and stress corrosion failures originate. Polishing takes that surface to its final level. But again I would of course differ to someone that had a higher level of understanding of this. I can certainly see the possibly of some things being redundant and possibly counter productive.

Too bad that the balancing has to be done post treatment as I have dealt with treatments that could not even be marred let alone ground thru with cutting wheels. That would not be the one I guess for the rod or at least area where material removal has to take place.


Big Bore,

I was under the impression you were wanting to start to work thru idea to cover everything with this engine build and bouncing it off the choir so to speak. I was just trying to kick it off for ya with a initial list to generate some discussion that would hopefully be of benefit in terms of ideas to include/exclude from your build or confirm for yourself you had Is and Ts dotted and crossed. I do not want to side rail your thread with this stuff if its not of any benefit to ya.
 
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