Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

jaybuller · Dec 21, 2015

What ever route you go I would invest in a hydra chip. Thy way when you get tunes and tweaks done by your tunner you just plug in the cord and load the new tune. Also I recommend PHP and gh both of them know what they are doing. I like both because they tune on the safe and smooth side. I also used to like my swamps tunes because of the raw power felt down low compared to the others.

mandkole · Dec 21, 2015

I am in the market for injectors come spring. I had decided to go with a 180/100 until this thread. In talking to FF the reason given to go to 100% nozzles is basically the same reason given here to go to 200%, one can inject in a narrower window.

When I was playing with LSx motors I learned to tune so I got the results I wanted. I don't have the time to invest again so which tuners would be the ones to talk to?

Be prepared to invest time if you have 200s.. some real time data availability would also be good in order to communicate with the tuner. In addition to GH, Charles may have a few files available soon from his working on his truck and Bill @ PHP will likely have a few.

PABowhunter · Dec 21, 2015

Between having the ability to datalog with a good scanner such as auto enginuity and the ease of uploading tunes with a hydra, it's a lot easier for tuners to work with you and get your truck running better sooner.

Hotrodtractor · Dec 21, 2015

TyCorr said:
Since the mcc guys have a subforum, cant we? Or should we just start a thread and start posting screenshots from minotaur with pw, icp, and mfd tables? **** it, lets get this shti rolling. Obviously this idea shouldnt be stepping on any vendor toes as none of them agree with the principal anyway.

Look at how smooth 907daves 450/400s idle and free rev. And we're bickering over 200% nozzles? What comparable size is a 6.4 stock nozzle? What about a 6.7? Or duramax?

Go ahead and start a new thread with info. After it gets going a bit, I'll make it a sticky.

Since you mentioned Dmax - and I tend to agree with Charles quite a bit on injection theory (shorter duration fuel injection at the right time is cleaner and more powerful) - my Dmax dynos about 640rwhp on 37x13.50s using a 60% over tip, a 10mm stroker CP3 pump, and 1.6ms of PW for fuel.

Personally - when I pick injectors I try to pick injectors that can dump the fuel I want in the 1.5-2ms window. Its about getting a set of injectors that have fuel injection speed as well as control resolution to be able to utilize them appropriately. There are already posts on here and on PSN that discuss some of this. For this to work - you need injectors that you know what are and a tuner that knows how to use them correctly. Unfortunately in the 7.3 world things were so screwed up in the beginning that the sins of the past have never been truly washed away from the results of today.

Anyone that is looking to put a 200% tip on an injector in a motor with a 38R is going to need to know exactly what is going on. While it is something I would do - it is not something that most tuners are comfortable with tuning for. Its not something that most of the guys looking to buy injectors should be looking at. Its just easier to make a long PW nozzle work for someone than it is to take the time and work to make a short PW nozzle work.

Charles · Dec 21, 2015

It's sad that the 200, 300 and 400% nozzles have been running down the roads in trucks for so many years and so many people treat tuning like the things just came out yesterday, or they are some kind of volatile, unstable mess that require precise corrections in every application.

Rewind 15 years and you could have said that about a 30%. I remember sitting at a red light wondering if my motor mounts were going to break and being UNABLE to drive slower than 40 mph with a set of DT466 6 holers on a 175cc injector!!!

With sh*t tuning, you can make anything seem like an unruly mess!

Charles · Dec 21, 2015

Fwiw, it would only take me a hour or so to have a set of 200 nozzles running like clockwork in a bone stock truck. No intake, no exhaust, no turbo, nothing. I would have it running 200rwhp if you wanted with absolutely no effort at all. Those numbers in the pw map go all the way to 0, just so everybody knows, lol. You can have the truck max out at 67hp if you want. Or you could have it never even come off idle, or even crank for that matter.

Now for a truck truly making only 200rwhp, it would be less efficient to use a 200 most likely, although I would actually like to test with say a flow meter on the fuel pump outlet vs the return line flow to verify BSFC to make sure, because at 200rwhp the larger nozzle may actually still win, lol.

Jomax · Dec 21, 2015

Charles said:
Fwiw, it would only take me a hour or so to have a set of 200 nozzles running like clockwork in a bone stock truck. No intake, no exhaust, no turbo, nothing. I would have it running 200rwhp if you wanted with absolutely no effort at all. Those numbers in the pw map go all the way to 0, just so everybody knows, lol. You can have the truck max out at 67hp if you want. Or you could have it never even come off idle, or even crank for that matter.

Now for a truck truly making only 200rwhp, it would be less efficient to use a 200 most likely, although I would actually like to test with say a flow meter on the fuel pump outlet vs the return line flow to verify BSFC to make sure, because at 200rwhp the larger nozzle may actually still win, lol.

I'll be getting Minotaur. And 300/200s. Can't wait to start tuning.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jeremiahmercier · Dec 21, 2015

PsRumors said:
I am in the market for injectors come spring. I had decided to go with a 180/100 until this thread. In talking to FF the reason given to go to 100% nozzles is basically the same reason given here to go to 200%, one can inject in a narrower window.

When I was playing with LSx motors I learned to tune so I got the results I wanted. I don't have the time to invest again so which tuners would be the ones to talk to?

You still exist!

Charles, dId you ever have a tuner other than yourself who could dial in the 200s? When it comes time for our 02 to need injectors, you've got me considering going with a 230-250/200%, I just gotta find someone who can and is willing to tune it, I know Jody at DP-TUNER, Bill at PHP, and Johnathon over at Dynoproven are all in georgia, and would be really convienent for live tuning. The 02 is primarily used to tow my parents travel trailer, and I simply want the bigger nozzles for the cooler egts, other than a 38r, intake and exhaust, the truck is stock, will the pmr hold up with just towing in mind? And how's your trans holding?

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

Charles · Dec 21, 2015

jeremiahmercier said:
You still exist!

Charles, dId you ever have a tuner other than yourself who could dial in the 200s? When it comes time for our 02 to need injectors, you've got me considering going with a 230-250/200%, I just gotta find someone who can and is willing to tune it, I know Jody at DP-TUNER, Bill at PHP, and Johnathon over at Dynoproven are all in georgia, and would be really convienent for live tuning. The 02 is primarily used to tow my parents travel trailer, and I simply want the bigger nozzles for the cooler egts, other than a 38r, intake and exhaust, the truck is stock, will the pmr hold up with just towing in mind? And how's your trans holding?

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

I have files for an 02 auto, although only a couple I wrote before I realized there was no way to stop the auto PCM from surging the MFD because it was no longer hooked to the trans.

For what you're wanting, you would need to dial the power on down a bit more than where I have mine. The stock trans would never see you through unless you lifted on every shift. I'm only doing this because I fully plan to swap in my BTS after I have time to freshen it up, plus there's only so much will power to remove power from a truck that's so fun to drive. I've already dropped power in 2 big steps so far to try and appease the trans. If this trans lasts until I have the other one sitting on the shelf, that's a win for me. But for longevity, the power would have to be dropped some more to be used with a stock trans. Which is easy, as long as you never have to feel the truck drive with that power! LOL

If you had the truck driving and shifting well (I don't do stock ford trans control) and just needed refinement to the engine tuning I'm sure one of my files could give your tuner any insight they might need to get the power/smoke in the target zone, assuming they didn't already have that under control.

And if it just couldn't be done, I might break my own tuning rule and just sit in the seat and tune the thing for you just to shut some of these Nancy boys up. Then if someone could just back up the engine tuning with solid trans tuning we would instantly have a VDH program for 200 nozzles on a stock truck!

The only reason to change it from there would be personal preferences for idle speeds and trans shift points and such.

The trans is the really tricky part. If the trans tuning would have worked at all for me with the stock ford PCM I would already have a file done, sitting here needing only minor changes for reduced power. The trans has always been a barrier between me and almost anybody who I might share a file with. I always run manual trans PCM's, and 99% of the world runs autos.

It would be really hard to tune the engine without the ability to control the trans.

psduser1 · Dec 21, 2015

ja_cain said:
This talk about eh nozzles vs straight edm makes perfect sense. More turbulent flow, thus better atomization. Learned early on you don't polish the intake side of a head on a gas engine, especially if you are going to run it on the street. Not to mention velocity drops for the same amount of air when you hog them out. That will lower turbulence too.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

I'm curious as to the finish on 200% nozzles, edm or eh? Assuming not honed, generally speaking? Any builders care to share?

ja_cain · Dec 21, 2015

psduser1 said:
I'm curious as to the finish on 200% nozzles, edm or eh? Assuming not honed, generally speaking? Any builders care to share?

I think I have a microscope powerful enough at the lab to do some comparison photos if someone wanted to send me some 100% and 200% nozzles. DOF will be very shallow but I still might be able to get some meaningful images.

ja_cain · Dec 21, 2015

jeremiahmercier said:
You still exist!

Charles, dId you ever have a tuner other than yourself who could dial in the 200s? When it comes time for our 02 to need injectors, you've got me considering going with a 230-250/200%, I just gotta find someone who can and is willing to tune it, I know Jody at DP-TUNER, Bill at PHP, and Johnathon over at Dynoproven are all in georgia, and would be really convienent for live tuning. The 02 is primarily used to tow my parents travel trailer, and I simply want the bigger nozzles for the cooler egts, other than a 38r, intake and exhaust, the truck is stock, will the pmr hold up with just towing in mind? And how's your trans holding?

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

You should have never sold your old truck. It would have been perfect to test some hybrid injectors with 200% nozzles. Not sure how easy it would have been to port over Charles AEB tunes to the older PCM that you had, but it would have been pretty awesome to try out if it could have been done fairly easily.

******** seems to really have their stuff together based on all of the comments I have read lately. I would get a copy of Charles tuning and see if they will work with you on the trans tuning.

ja_cain · Dec 21, 2015

Hotrodtractor said:
Go ahead and start a new thread with info. After it gets going a bit, I'll make it a sticky.

Since you mentioned Dmax - and I tend to agree with Charles quite a bit on injection theory (shorter duration fuel injection at the right time is cleaner and more powerful) - my Dmax dynos about 640rwhp on 37x13.50s using a 60% over tip, a 10mm stroker CP3 pump, and 1.6ms of PW for fuel.

Personally - when I pick injectors I try to pick injectors that can dump the fuel I want in the 1.5-2ms window. Its about getting a set of injectors that have fuel injection speed as well as control resolution to be able to utilize them appropriately. There are already posts on here and on PSN that discuss some of this. For this to work - you need injectors that you know what are and a tuner that knows how to use them correctly. Unfortunately in the 7.3 world things were so screwed up in the beginning that the sins of the past have never been truly washed away from the results of today.

Anyone that is looking to put a 200% tip on an injector in a motor with a 38R is going to need to know exactly what is going on. While it is something I would do - it is not something that most tuners are comfortable with tuning for. Its not something that most of the guys looking to buy injectors should be looking at. Its just easier to make a long PW nozzle work for someone than it is to take the time and work to make a short PW nozzle work.

This is money right here. I have been wondering how the other platforms compared as far flow rate was concerned. Charles comment about the stock 6.4 injectors supporting so much horse power really illustrates how crippled the 7.3 came from the factory (injectors). Do you know if there is some sort of atomization advantage to piezoelectric injectors, or is just a speed thing since they pulse so many times per compression event?

jeremiahmercier · Dec 21, 2015

Still would be possible, I sold my old truck to an old friend and now co worker, and he has every intention of doing studs, dual disk clutch, and either 230 or 250/200s. Him and I both love these trucks, and we talk about them all the time, I have been sharing with him what I read, between that and his past experience with drift cars we tend to see a lot if things on the same level. I know the 100%s made a great difference in dropping egts, I can only imagine what 200s would have done...

Now if I could just find the 6.0 crowd who understands the idea of larger nozzles for shorter injection time and not always max fuel, I could have a good thread going over there too, but the couple time I've brought it up, it's always larger nozzle equals more smoke and hotter. Since I have no personal experience with the 6.0 platform, I just keep my mouth shut for now, and plan on picking a 175 or 190cc with a 75 or 100% nozzles, and report back once I have it tuned. In thinking of trying ********, he seems to be the most willing to work with people, but I might give Cassie over at Dynoproven a shot too

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

ja_cain · Dec 21, 2015

PABowhunter said:
Between having the ability to datalog with a good scanner such as auto enginuity and the ease of uploading tunes with a hydra, it's a lot easier for tuners to work with you and get your truck running better sooner.

I almost bought AE instead of the Edge Insight CTS, but the ability to datalog EGT/FP made it more useful for my current requirements. I missed out on a snapon scanner that would do perdels, but I can still do CCT with my phone (second best thing). I could only hope that someone comes out with a phone ap that will support perdels. Probably wishful thinking with an old platform like this.

Vader's Fury · Dec 21, 2015

Tuning 101

Let's use this thread to get all the guys that tune their own trucks together and share some info for all us 7.3 guys.

ja_cain · Dec 21, 2015

jeremiahmercier said:
Still would be possible, I sold my old truck to an old friend and now co worker, and he has every intention of doing studs, dual disk clutch, and either 230 or 250/200s. Him and I both love these trucks, and we talk about them all the time, I have been sharing with him what I read, between that and his past experience with drift cars we tend to see a lot if things on the same level. I know the 100%s made a great difference in dropping egts, I can only imagine what 200s would have done...

Now if I could just find the 6.0 crowd who understands the idea of larger nozzles for shorter injection time and not always max fuel, I could have a good thread going over there too, but the couple time I've brought it up, it's always larger nozzle equals more smoke and hotter. Since I have no personal experience with the 6.0 platform, I just keep my mouth shut for now, and plan on picking a 175 or 190cc with a 75 or 100% nozzles, and report back once I have it tuned. In thinking of trying ********, he seems to be the most willing to work with people, but I might give Cassie over at Dynoproven a shot too

06-6.0l, studded, reworked heads, egr ******, blue spring mod, 6.4 banjos, dummy plugs, stand pipe, upgraded stc fitting, New oil cooler, New ipr, New icp, atlas 40 FICM, stage 1 powermax, and Looney wild, 325/65R18

That's cool you sold it to a friend. I wish I had a friend near me that was into these trucks. Everyone wants the new stuff. Guys like Charles are who keep the passion for the 7.3 going. We have needed a thread like this for a long time. Good luck with your parents truck, btw.

Vader's Fury · Dec 21, 2015

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1315237#post1315237

Jason if you could move the tuning conversation from here to that thread, it can be the starting point to keep this going.