160/100 vs 205/30 Injector Testing

akcooper9 said:

Correct me if Im wrong but you dont have a true/new SXE from BW. Didn't you buy a sxe style turbine wheel of ebay and the 11 blade compressor wheel from China? IMHO you dont have a real SXE

I can tell you my BW SXE makes something greater then 35+ PSI as I have no problem burying the needle on the 35 PSI gauge.

:swordfight:

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Correct.

For the record, your smaller S364.5 makes 35psi and my larger S366 makes 32psi with stock injectors.

I think the main differences between what I am running and the SXE is the compressor cover. Dont quote me here but I "think" the SXE race cover may have a slightly different MAP groove and maybe a larger AR compared to what I run. The non-SXE cover is called a tractor cover. They used to come with John Deere in the casting before the SXE came out. Compressor wheel blade count makes a difference but not anything I would call drastic besides moving the low end/ high end HP band. Went from a super aggressive proven 6+6 and then a mellow 11+0. (Not China, Taiwan ) As for the turbine side, there is no difference. I bought a replacement SXE turbine from "XX" manufacturer and if you take a look around there arent a whole lot of places to get individual replacement parts. Go ahead and say I bought some knock-off of a different design. Might as well say that since I built the T4 myself it will also perform differently. Parts origin holds little bearing on performance these days. So what you are telling me, if I take my modified S366 SX/e (small "e" because it doesnt have a race cover" and switch to a true S366 SXE my EGTs will drop by 200 degrees and my boost will go up 3psi?

Back woods said:

For the record, your smaller S364.5 makes 35psi and my larger S366 makes 32psi with stock injectors.

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Nope, Im saying I make some number of boost higher then 35 PSI, My gauge doesn't go higher but I have no problem burying the needle. If I had to guess its 40+ but thats a WAG.

What Im also saying is no one else that I know has built with misc parts a BW turbo. Your built BW turbo results dont line up with what everyone else results are.

KCTurbos said:

First off... I don't want this to turn into a t4 vs drop in pissing contest (which is what always seems to happen). But I will say that our drop in turbos have changed DRAMATICALLY over the last few years and improved greatly.

I will also say that I can't tell you how many hours I spend each day helping people fix boost/exhaust leaks that lead to performance issues across all platforms. I literally have hired people to spend their days on the phone/email/pm/text/instagram/forums/etc helping people fix/find boost and exhaust leaks.

With that said... with our newest turbo designs... I have never had a truck with major egt issues that did not come down to boost/exhaust leaks or trying to lug the motor in OD going up a hill. I truly believe a lot of guys fix missed boost/exhaust leaks when going t4. Not saying t4 does not work great. But I can't tell you how many turbos I get sent back for "warranty" issues that you can see obvious signs that the up pipe clamps were not lined up right. Also when inspecting trucks in person that have egt issues we quickly find boost/exhaust leaks and the problems go away.

So why would t4 guys not struggle with boost/exhaust leaks? Well they do, because I help them fix them all the time. But I would also venture to say that a lot of common leaks gets fixed when you replace every part associated with boost/exhaust system AND the type of person that would be willing to dive into a t4 kit would also be the type of person to find/fix leaks that are present.



But back to your original questions. I am not sure on the HP of the tow tunes he had. We did not dyno the tow tunes. They were limited enough that when towing REALLY heavy up a big hill he would sometimes run into issues of holding the pedal all the way to the floor and not being able to maintain a steady speed BUT ALSO couldn't get his egts above 1100-1200 degrees no matter how hard he tried. I told him he just needed to turn the tune up a little bit so he could push the 1200-1300egts and have a little more power. With average loads he always had plenty of power. (he sometimes gross 30k going up 7% grades)

Now with the 238/80 he has more power... but can easily fly past 1300 degrees when not even going above 3/4 throttle. He never needs that much power with average loads and never struggles with egts. But when he really gets up their in weight he has to be careful.

I think some more live tuning could alleviate either problem with either injector size... but not everyone has access to live tuning or willing to watch gauges as closely as he does.


Your issue could be related to not being a true SXE turbo
Boost/exhaust leak?
Stock injectors not maintaining great ICP?
Running too much PW and creating excess heat (PW vs Nozzle size is a balancing act when it comes to optimizing performance)
Rpm placement?

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Covered the turbo stuff in my other post. Think I have all my leaks covered, will check out for plenum to head leaks. RPM placement, EGTs while lugging are just fine, maybe 1200 max. EGTs only climb to 1300* when I am pushing pretty hard in the upper RPMs, 2800-3200rpm. There are no issues with how it runs. I guess my question is; Is there a way to keep the power that is has with lowering the top end EGTs a bit? This something that better tuning can take care of?

Most definitely better tuning. I can change EGTs with small timing adjustments in a tune alone. You are also running stock injectors as you said. A set of better injectors will be more capable of higher power with lower egts. The one thing no one mentions about larger nozzles is this piece. As RPMs go up the injection window gets smaller and smaller. A larger nozzle will able to inject a larger quantity in a smaller window which leaves wiggle room in the tuning. There will always trade offs with turbo size, injector size, tuning etc.

So if the 364.5 is struggling with higher egts towing with 238/80’s would a step down to a 205/80 make any difference in lowering egts? Or is it the 30% nozzle on the 205/30’s that help with egts?

cjfarm111 said:

So if the 364.5 is struggling with higher egts towing with 238/80’s would a step down to a 205/80 make any difference in lowering egts? Or is it the 30% nozzle on the 205/30’s that help with egts?

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Unless you’re trying to use more than 500hp to tow, there should be zero difference between 205/80s, 238/80s or even 400/80s. It’s all about managing and matching the pulse width to the purpose. I think a better metric to measure on the dyno would be which combination produces the best sustained hp & tq without breaking 1200-1250* on the pyro.

That’s what I’m after. And running a hybrid that is less oil hungry

The Brad said:

Unless you’re trying to use more than 500hp to tow, there should be zero difference between 205/80s, 238/80s or even 400/80s. It’s all about managing and matching the pulse width to the purpose. I think a better metric to measure on the dyno would be which combination produces the best sustained hp & tq without breaking 1200-1250* on the pyro.

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Unfortunately that is not a realistic expectation. EGTs on the dyno are typically not even close to the street. Kinda like testing how much boost your truck makes by revving it in park?

The dyno run will last 3-7seconds depending on the load. It is hard to gets egts up very high during a run that short... compared to pulling a 20k trailer up a hill for 10 min.

I can tell you on a tow tune on the dyno the truck has a hard time breaking 900-1100egts no matter what the combo is on the turbo/inj


We are testing max HP tunes on the dyno to show difference between turbos. And real world towing to get better towing data.


Realistically... EGTs are a race tune don't even matter. You can run 2000egts for 10 seconds and never hurt anything. You can run 1250-1300 forever without issue. It is when you start creeping above 1300 for long periods of time where you are going to melt something.

superpsd said:

Most definitely better tuning. I can change EGTs with small timing adjustments in a tune alone. You are also running stock injectors as you said. A set of better injectors will be more capable of higher power with lower egts. The one thing no one mentions about larger nozzles is this piece. As RPMs go up the injection window gets smaller and smaller. A larger nozzle will able to inject a larger quantity in a smaller window which leaves wiggle room in the tuning. There will always trade offs with turbo size, injector size, tuning etc.

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^^^WHS

nozzles/PW/timing is all a balancing act of moving your efficiencies. The smaller nozzles will have the advantage down low when you have plenty of time to inject the fuel. Bigger nozzles will have the advantage up in the rpms as the injection window gets smaller. It is always give and take.

There is no definite answer on where a stock/30/80/100/200 will be the most efficient... that is where we can argue. But typically if you struggle with EGTs at WOT in the higher rpms a bigger nozzle would help with that. So your stock nozzles are not helping your egts at WOT in the higher rpms. You have to run much more PW to dump the same amount of fuel which causes more heat.

Thanks for all the good information. Going to give some different tuning a shot and see where it gets me.

KCTurbos said:

Unfortunately that is not a realistic expectation. EGTs on the dyno are typically not even close to the street. Kinda like testing how much boost your truck makes by revving it in park?

The dyno run will last 3-7seconds depending on the load. It is hard to gets egts up very high during a run that short... compared to pulling a 20k trailer up a hill for 10 min.

I can tell you on a tow tune on the dyno the truck has a hard time breaking 900-1100egts no matter what the combo is on the turbo/inj...

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Not unrealistic at all! With the right dyno, you can simulate different loads and driving conditions while changing nozzles, tuning and turbo configurations.

I’m sure that’s not in your budget and do appreciate the time, money and efforts you’re putting into all of this testing.

The Brad said:

Not unrealistic at all! With the right dyno, you can simulate different loads and driving conditions while changing nozzles, tuning and turbo configurations.

I’m sure that’s not in your budget and do appreciate the time, money and efforts you’re putting into all of this testing.

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Not sure how often you spend time on the dyno... but I do it for a living and have traveled all over the country using different dynos. You cannot hold a vehicle simulating a heavy trailer for minutes at a time with the amount of hp/tq we are working with. Not possible.

Not saying you can check hp/tq on the dyno. But simulating a 10min pull with a 20k trailer to see what kind of egts you are going to see just won't work.

Standard tow tune on the dyno won't crack 900-1100 because you can't load the dyno hard enough or long enough. Boost/ebp is also typically lower on the dyno than the street. Measuring setups for realistic towing egts EGTs using a dyno is just not gonna happen

Thanks KC. I watch these dyno pulls and these guys that brag about the hp they make and all I think is for what maybe 1 or 2 seconds. That doesn't mean sht to the guy out on the road pulling loads and actually using their truck. You know how we dyno Ag tractors. We start at wide open and pull them down to see what they can make for hp.. Lets try that with some of these trucks and see what happens. Because that is how they are run with a trailer on them on the road in the working environment.

Thanks for all the testing you are doing.

I had some things i wanted to mention as i read all 20 pages, but have lost some of my thoughts.

I want to say that many of you that live near sea level or low elevations and in humid climates have it made compared to some of us. I live in Colorado at around 6500' with practically no humidity....very little air here, so we struggle with high egt's among other things.

Many people seem to get caught up in boost numbers as well, from my experience; that doesn't mean everything. Here in Colorado we won't see the boost numbers that others see either. I hear people say what they can hit for boost on the same setups as me and that's just not possible here.

To me, I chose to go the T4 route just so turbo swaps would be cheaper and there are more options (in theory) not because it's a better setup, etc. The best my truck has ever been was with the stock setup and aftermarket turbo.
As long as everything is in order, there is nothing wrong with the stock setup. as far as egt's issues go, a lot has to do with the tuner.

my first chip was a dp tuner. power was good as was economy but I always had egt issues. This was on stock injectors. I couldn't even run a qtr mile without sky high temps. I checked everything over and over for leaks. only found some very minor leaks from the plenums and fixed them but no change in egt's.
I eventually decided to try php tunes. still had egt issues but they were a lot better than what I had with Dp tuner. I also like the tuning of php tons better. I knew something was wrong but I could never find it. Almost gave up, then one day i took everything apart and took extra care to make sure everything was just right. You couldn't see it with the naked eye, but the fitting from the turbo to the down pipe was not quite seated right. Got that fixed and egt's were never an issue. I could run WOT to 100mph fully floored and not break 1250.
Everyone on the forums seemed to think that my egt's were normal, but i always felt that they were way off.
I know someone here mentioned egt's being an issue with stock injectors. I'm just saying there could be a minor leak somewhere that's been overlooked causing the problem, or it could be in the tuning.

as far as t4 turbos go, I'm waiting for the 366 comparisons especially on larger injectors. I agree that the 369sxe is more for play and I am considering the 366sxe but feel it may not be a good enough improvement, at least in my case.
when I ran the stock setup with aftermarket turbo, I had pretty much zero lag. Ever since i switched to a t4 setup i have had a bunch of lag. Granted I now have 250/100 injectors, I started with a pius LASb which i believe was before the BASB. it's not supposed to have lag supposedly but it does. Now I am running the 369SXE per recommendation from Dusty. It's actually supposed to go on my project which will be running 250/100 and zf6.
The 369 moves a bit more air than the LASB, has more boost, more lag, but SOTP feel is not much more compared to the smaller LASB. Either setup, I always have to watch my EGT's no matter what tune I'm running. Some of egt's I can understand being the larger injectors. I have not done any actual testing, but i have learned some ways to deal with the lag and egt's but trying to drive this way is inconsistent.

I can see where the 364.5 and 366 would be better candidates for towing and general daily driving. I plan to get the 366 to try in comparison to my 369. Maybe I just need some live tuning. I think i definitely want the 366 for my zf6 though as I want to minimize lag, especially when shifting. I don't drive a whole lot, nor do I to a lot but I do tow up to 15k on occasion but also like having as much power as possible that my pmr's can handle for the fun times. I haven't been on a dyno, but I should be around the 500 pony mark from what Bill told me years ago with my initial setup.
If I am really near 500, it's fun and i probably don't need it, but sometimes even more might be more fun. In reality stock injectors or something like what being tested would have been fine.
almost forgot, Probably the only one as i have asked others in the past; but ever since i switched to t4 and 250/100 injectors, my fuel economy has dropped 1-2mpg.
stock injectors, php tunes and aftermarket drop in turbo I was getting 14-15 in town. now I only get 12-13. I talked to people in the past and they said they were getting the same mileage when they switch to similar injectors and even slightly better on hwy mileage. who knows, luckily i don't drive my truck a ton and i grew up on crappy fuel mileage.

Who’s injectors? And how is your icp?

My injectors are FFD, both sets. I can't remember when I last monitored icp, but it used to be fine. It would push 2800-3200. I know i was recently looking at pw, so i might have had that along with icp. Trying to remember where i put my edge , i can probably get some fresh data.

Another thing i forgot to mention is now i see more people talking about hazing at idle. Back when I first got my 250/100's i mentioned my hazing issues but don't recall anyone having the same issue. Now it seems many people have similar symptoms but mine are a bit worse.
Even right now during summer at first startup , sometimes I get a slight haze. During colder days, you don't want to be around my truck. When it's cold out, my truck will haze with fumes that make your eyes water for as long as the truck is sitting idling. I have to drive it for a while before it clears. Sometimes even when it clears, it will still have a slight haze when parked or idling at a light. I have had a couple people try to resolve it but no luck. My latest tunes from 1023 and gh seem to be a tiny bit better but we will see when winter starts to set in. It's embarrassing. My truck has no issues on stock injectors.

I recently put in my new ffd 250/100s in for comparison. They still haze too. Also my new injectors don't feel the same power wise. They don't throw you back like my originals do. Seem like they have less a55 to them.

I've been really busy, so i haven't looked into anything. I have lived with the hazing, but has driven me nuts every winter.

Done rambling for now

KCTurbos said:

Not sure how often you spend time on the dyno... but I do it for a living and have traveled all over the country using different dynos. You cannot hold a vehicle simulating a heavy trailer for minutes at a time with the amount of hp/tq we are working with. Not possible.

Not saying you can check hp/tq on the dyno. But simulating a 10min pull with a 20k trailer to see what kind of egts you are going to see just won't work.

Standard tow tune on the dyno won't crack 900-1100 because you can't load the dyno hard enough or long enough. Boost/ebp is also typically lower on the dyno than the street. Measuring setups for realistic towing egts EGTs using a dyno is just not gonna happen

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Thats common knowledge. Dyno is good for measuring increases a mod brings but as you stated its not an intelligent way to test driveability of mods. And ive never been able to get a turbo to be as lively as it really is on a dyno.

INFRNL said:

My injectors are FFD, both sets. I can't remember when I last monitored icp, but it used to be fine. It would push 2800-3200. I know i was recently looking at pw, so i might have had that along with icp. Trying to remember where i put my edge , i can probably get some fresh data.

Another thing i forgot to mention is now i see more people talking about hazing at idle. Back when I first got my 250/100's i mentioned my hazing issues but don't recall anyone having the same issue. Now it seems many people have similar symptoms but mine are a bit worse.
Even right now during summer at first startup , sometimes I get a slight haze. During colder days, you don't want to be around my truck. When it's cold out, my truck will haze with fumes that make your eyes water for as long as the truck is sitting idling. I have to drive it for a while before it clears. Sometimes even when it clears, it will still have a slight haze when parked or idling at a light. I have had a couple people try to resolve it but no luck. My latest tunes from 1023 and gh seem to be a tiny bit better but we will see when winter starts to set in. It's embarrassing. My truck has no issues on stock injectors.

I recently put in my new ffd 250/100s in for comparison. They still haze too. Also my new injectors don't feel the same power wise. They don't throw you back like my originals do. Seem like they have less a55 to them.

I've been really busy, so i haven't looked into anything. I have lived with the hazing, but has driven me nuts every winter.

Done rambling for now

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Not interested in a debate or tryung to put anybody down but those injectors arent of the quality it takes to build highly tuneable hybrids. With a 200% nozzle that eye watering phenomenon is somwhat unavoidable but with a 100% nozzle theres no reason. The capacity of the injector is irrelevant to a degree.

TitoBandito78 said:

Not interested in a debate or tryung to put anybody down but those injectors arent of the quality it takes to build highly tuneable hybrids. With a 200% nozzle that eye watering phenomenon is somwhat unavoidable but with a 100% nozzle theres no reason. The capacity of the injector is irrelevant to a degree.

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curious what you are running?

from recent reading, I was under the impression that 200% nozzles were a better way to go over 100% nozzles but may be a little tougher to tune. Sometimes i wish i worked at a shop so i could see all the differences between injectors first hand.

when i bought my injectors, i was going for max power that would be safe for a pmr motor.

INFRNL said:

curious what you are running?

from recent reading, I was under the impression that 200% nozzles were a better way to go over 100% nozzles but may be a little tougher to tune. Sometimes i wish i worked at a shop so i could see all the differences between injectors first hand.

when i bought my injectors, i was going for max power that would be safe for a pmr motor.

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And i wouldnt say using 100% nozzles for max power on anything pmr or forged was a wise idea. Especially a 250cc injector. They should have 200% nozzles on them.

Thats exactly what I do. I used to daily the setup for a long commute and the truck would return 17-18mpg on highway commuting. Ive used swamps,ff, and pis for injectors. Pis has been restructured and id probably use a different builder here forward but my hybrids were awesome. No smoky bs at idle, no issues.

Swamps or unlimited would be my choice now.