swamps 175/146 or 160/30 injectors (what to go with)

jaybuller · Mar 4, 2013

All right guys I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a set of injectors. Ive run the 175/146 swamps before in an auto truck and they were nice. but ive never run a set of 160/30 before. the price is about the same. My goals are 375 to 400hp on the hottest tune. this is a daily driver. I don't want to sacrifice any drivability or MPG from what im getting from my stock injectors now. also want to stick with my newly rebuilt stock turbo(turbomaster wastgate, ww2) I wont be spinning the motor past 3000 rpms either.

so anyone have input?
160/30 from unlimited or 175/146 from swamps?

Tim @ P.I.S. · Mar 4, 2013

Well injector sizing is all a game of fuel per time. At 3000 you don't have enough time to empty either injector you listed. We don't offer either of those sizes. We do offer a 175/30% though. And we test this on our bench at 2500 rpm. Because this is what we feel is the max you can spin them too. After that pw gets too small. So you can figure the 175/146 will peak earlier and the 160/30% will peak later. Both offer quality products so you couldn't go wrong with either. Also check out ours as we have a sale on them right now for PSA members.

jaybuller · Mar 4, 2013

noticed you were in florida Tim. do you have anything to do with pensicolla diesel? also could you pm me a price quote on a set of those 175/30s thanks

also is there any tuners out there that you know of that have plenty of experience with tuning your 175/30s? im not in a place I can just go get live tunes so that could be an issue. Thank you

Tim @ P.I.S. · Mar 4, 2013

Um, no. We are no way associated with Pensicola Diesel.

All of our customers receive tuning from No Limit Tuning and Design. He has done our tuning for a couple of years now. I'm sure he would be able to take care of you. Pm on its way.

jaybuller · Mar 4, 2013

Oh thank goodness! i bought some injecotrs from pensicola diesel in 09 that were on the cheap side but supposubly he rebuilt them and they wouldnt even start under 35 degrees out side because the cheap trashy plungers and barrels he put in them!

On another note ive heard good things about NLT so that would be good there. That deal you have going on is unbeatable i think and should give me the power in lookin for as well as keep my MPG when im cruising the hwy! thanks and ill get with you soon on the payment.

if you dont mind me asking. WHat makes your injecotrs cheaper than say other comparable remand injectors? Are you using cheaper P&Bs,coils, or anything like that than the more expensive remands out there today? Or are you just not haveing to pay the overhead like some shops do? Im just curious and look forward to running a set of your injectors!

Tim @ P.I.S. · Mar 4, 2013

Being from Florida we hear alot about Pensicola. From what I understand they reuse everything they possibly can. Shim up some clearances and put new orings on them and ship them out. I find it hard to believe if they even test them on a bench as many stories I am told about "X" number of their injectors that don't work out of the box.

I am happy you find them such a bargain. We do have the sale going for online purchases to help promote the new store we are launching.

Each set comes with all new nozzles, new plungers/barrels, all springs and o rings. Machined to our specifications so no shims are used on the armatures. All this work we put in gives a great product. Reusing some components and/or shimming to gain certain clearances shows a lesser grade product.

After all this and dealer pricing we have we do not have a very large margin on this size injector. But we are so happy with what this particular injector does we are trying to make it an affordable option.

I hope you i joy them.

backwoodsboy · Mar 4, 2013

jaybuller said:
if you dont mind me asking. WHat makes your injecotrs cheaper than say other comparable remand injectors? Are you using cheaper P&Bs,coils, or anything like that than the more expensive remands out there today? Or are you just not haveing to pay the overhead like some shops do? Im just curious and look forward to running a set of your injectors!

From what I've heard nothing about a set of P.I.S. injectors is cheap, other than the price. Parts aren't shimmed and re-used some like places will do to cut corners and keep cost down.

jaybuller · Mar 4, 2013

Thank you guys... especialy you Tim. You were very helpful and have what looks to be a heck of a good product your putting out there.
'
I just went with the unlimited 160/30s and Matt is going to work me up a few tunes to run them. I think ill be happy with them! Im going to be putting it on a dyno soon as I get all the tuning worked out and everything set how I want it. Should be interesting with the new WW2 in my stock turbo to see if it will push these little 160s to 400hp...

steele86 · Mar 5, 2013

Why not go with 205/100

jaybuller · Mar 5, 2013

im sticking with my stock charger is the main reason for me not to go to a 100% nozzel. i do not realy care to spin my motor up to 3000 rpms being a dd and a tow truck theres just no need for any high rpm driving so the 30% will do what i want it to do. Im not planning to put headstuds in this truck is another reason i didnt want to go crazy with the power. i realy just want a good running 7.3 that can knock down good clean mpg and be able to tow. If i have a tune that on max setting makes 375 id be happy. to me a 350hp 7.3 in a 6 speed is plenty for fun.

Charles · Mar 5, 2013

jaybuller said:
im sticking with my stock charger is the main reason for me not to go to a 100% nozzel. i do not realy care to spin my motor up to 3000 rpms being a dd and a tow truck theres just no need for any high rpm driving so the 30% will do what i want it to do. Im not planning to put headstuds in this truck is another reason i didnt want to go crazy with the power. i realy just want a good running 7.3 that can knock down good clean mpg and be able to tow. If i have a tune that on max setting makes 375 id be happy. to me a 350hp 7.3 in a 6 speed is plenty for fun.

A 100% nozzle will be more efficient at 350rwhp than a 30% nozzle or a stock 146 nozzle. A 200% EDM will be even more efficient than the 100% at that power level...

And a 400% nozzle will make 124rwhp flat to the floor without a trace of smoke if that's you thing.

TUNE the truck to the power you want.... NOZZLE the truck to be efficient at the point you want to optimize.

If you want to optimize for 200rwhp, go with a 30%. 250-350, 100%. 350-550 200%. 550+ 400% for now.

jaybuller · Mar 5, 2013

makes sence Charles. Thanks. im thinking im gonna be driving around most the time using only about 100 hp or so. Im very easy on the go pedel and when im towing i bet im not going to be even using 300hp going up hills. My truck is not my hotrod! its not used to race ricers stoplight to stoplight. the most i would ever do with it would be like backyard grass drags just having fun! But i agree if i had an extra 500 dollars just burnig down a hole in my pocket i would have went with 238/100 and just neutered the piss out of them through tuning.

DocBar · Mar 5, 2013

I would always go with the bigger injector. It's much easier to tune them down than spend the same $$ again just to go a bit bigger. Hell, some guys get freakin huge injectors and tame them down to whatever the other mods will allow, HP-wise.

I say that because I'm a prime example. I went with 250/100"s as opposed to 250/200's based on a companies recommendation and have regretted it for a year and a half.

I might be making the same mistake again, using the 400/200's instead of 400/400's. Thos 400% nozzles just scare the sh*t out of me.

DocBar · Mar 5, 2013

Charles said:
A 100% nozzle will be more efficient at 350rwhp than a 30% nozzle or a stock 146 nozzle. A 200% EDM will be even more efficient than the 100% at that power level...

And a 400% nozzle will make 124rwhp flat to the floor without a trace of smoke if that's you thing.

TUNE the truck to the power you want.... NOZZLE the truck to be efficient at the point you want to optimize.

If you want to optimize for 200rwhp, go with a 30%. 250-350, 100%. 350-550 200%. 550+ 400% for now.

Do you trust the 400% nozzles that are available to be reliable in a DD application? If so, what has changed about them to make you think the 400% nozzle is reliable? I ask because I stuck with 200% for reliability and I trust your judgement.

jaybuller · Mar 6, 2013

you guys are ridiculous with your 400/400 talk! haha I wouldn't trust a 7.3 for anything other than a toy when pushing that kind of potential hp. And that would be the only reason to go that big. I use this truck and count on this truck. if it goes down im having to pay for a rental until I fix it. I take my family across the country with this truck and it needs to be reliable. I really cant see anything bigger than stage ones ever going into this truck. Now if I used it as a toy, sled puller, or drag racer it would be different but the reality is that's gonna be years from where im at now, only reason I realy went with the 30 over the stock nozzle is because the cooler egts while pulling a load

Charles · Mar 6, 2013

DocBar said:
Do you trust the 400% nozzles that are available to be reliable in a DD application? If so, what has changed about them to make you think the 400% nozzle is reliable? I ask because I stuck with 200% for reliability and I trust your judgement.

Reliable in the sense of blowing a tip off? If so... I haven't blown one off yet, but it happens. That's the reality.

If you mean in terms of performance, then just tune them how you want. Expect a little bit of haze to creep up next to the truck if you're stuck in traffic or sitting still for too long and it's chilly out, as it will start wet-stacking a bit. Maybe some people tune this out, but I nullify as much temperature correction as I can for consistency in what my PCM outputs, so I just deal with it.

I actually set my timing to a flat 20 degrees across the entire sea-level and altitude tables yesterday just to see how a mech pump would drive in terms of fixed timing, and this morning I fired the truck in the snow and I swear it smoked less. The smoke was light gray instead of the usual blue. It sounded a little harsh, but seemed to run fine, lol.

Point being, a 400% nozzle can be driven around with good results all day. But you can't F around with the tune. An improper tune and it will not just "be okay" like other nozzles. It will ruin your life and be a total nightmare, lol.

If I weren't planning to exceed 600rwhp, I would run a 200% EDM all day, because they are pretty much the pinnacle of quality, and quantity in terms of riding that fence. The 400 gives up quality for quantity. But... if you need that quantity, you have no choice.

DocBar · Mar 6, 2013

Charles said:
Reliable in the sense of blowing a tip off? If so... I haven't blown one off yet, but it happens. That's the reality.

If you mean in terms of performance, then just tune them how you want. Expect a little bit of haze to creep up next to the truck if you're stuck in traffic or sitting still for too long and it's chilly out, as it will start wet-stacking a bit. Maybe some people tune this out, but I nullify as much temperature correction as I can for consistency in what my PCM outputs, so I just deal with it.

I actually set my timing to a flat 20 degrees across the entire sea-level and altitude tables yesterday just to see how a mech pump would drive in terms of fixed timing, and this morning I fired the truck in the snow and I swear it smoked less. The smoke was light gray instead of the usual blue. It sounded a little harsh, but seemed to run fine, lol.

Point being, a 400% nozzle can be driven around with good results all day. But you can't F around with the tune. An improper tune and it will not just "be okay" like other nozzles. It will ruin your life and be a total nightmare, lol.

If I weren't planning to exceed 600rwhp, I would run a 200% EDM all day, because they are pretty much the pinnacle of quality, and quantity in terms of riding that fence. The 400 gives up quality for quantity. But... if you need that quantity, you have no choice.

I was speaking of blowing a tip.
I don't fool with tunes myself. I'm way too ignorant to even attempt it at this stage.

I might send the 250/100's in to be gone thru and have them turned into 400/400's for future growth.

Charles · Mar 6, 2013

DocBar said:
I was speaking of blowing a tip.
I don't fool with tunes myself. I'm way too ignorant to even attempt it at this stage.

I might send the 250/100's in to be gone thru and have them turned into 400/400's for future growth.

Just make sure you have a way to get the programming down pat. If it's off... you WILL NOT want to drive the truck. Small issues can become nightmares when the potential injection rate is that high, relatively speaking.

A person bitching and moaning about a 200% EDM being a smoky pig would slit their own throat if they ran the same program on a 400% nozzle...

If you go that route.... you had best make sure you have access to some known good programs. Bs programs won't cut it. Laggy ass programs with excess pw and slow ICP ramp rates won't work... You will want to set the truck on fire and roll it off a cliff.

I hope I'm clear on that point.

Then ENTIRE subject of manners rests on the shoulders of your program. The worst pos you've ever driven and the most enjoyable animal you've ever driven are separated by a mere handful of keystrokes with a nozzle that size.

DocBar · Mar 6, 2013

Charles said:
Just make sure you have a way to get the programming down pat. If it's off... you WILL NOT want to drive the truck. Small issues can become nightmares when the potential injection rate is that high, relatively speaking.

A person bitching and moaning about a 200% EDM being a smoky pig would slit their own throat if they ran the same program on a 400% nozzle...

If you go that route.... you had best make sure you have access to some known good programs. Bs programs won't cut it. Laggy ass programs with excess pw and slow ICP ramp rates won't work... You will want to set the truck on fire and roll it off a cliff.

I hope I'm clear on that point.

Then ENTIRE subject of manners rests on the shoulders of your program. The worst pos you've ever driven and the most enjoyable animal you've ever driven are separated by a mere handful of keystrokes with a nozzle that size.

I plan on having Matt live tune the truck. I'm also talking to 907Dave about getting some tunes from him. He's done some nice work with injectors that size.

mandkole · Mar 6, 2013

I get the faster empty time of larger nozzles.

The improved efficiency (as I think of fuel rate/HP) aspect is no comprende... if you were to watch a spray from a stock nozzle vs a 200,300,400% nozzle, from same injector, wouldnt you would see a definite difference in quality of atomization? How is tuning going to change the spray if you have a finite amount of IP (say 21K)? Are you saying that you'd need to tune higher/faster ICP ramps to keep the big nozz from pissing? I suspect you would, so why on a small injector setup is a big nozzle so desirable? The last thing I want is the exhaust hazing at idle...