6.0 injector stiction discussion

Mdub707

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I would like to start a discussion about 6.0 injectors, and more specifically, stiction and spool valves.

It seems anyone and everyone who has owned a 6.0 at some point, knows exactly what I'm talking about. Slow buzzing of injectors when you turn the key, rough starts, poor idles (sometimes actually a smooth idle, but just rough running once you get going). Waiting for the truck to warm up for 20 minutes in the driveway so you can take off down the road without it missing and bucking etc.

The things we have tried that we know sometimes help: Archoil AR9100, Rev-X, Hotshots secret, and similar other additives. While these additives are REALLY nice for the guy who doesn't feel like forking out the cash and the time for a new injector or 8, we know it's not exactly a fix. Some also run these as preventative maintenance. As far as I know, with all of these additives, when you drain the oil, your additive goes as well, so it must be run every oil change. I know some have said 2 bottles of rev-x the first time, and one bottle after... but I'm sure I'm not alone when I say 1 bottle just doesn't cut it for the most part.

We can also try and overcome a little bit of this with a 58V FICM as well. Most people running a 58V note that throttle response is improved. The idea is that extra voltage is pulling/pushing on the spool valve that much more and forcing it to move quicker. Makes sense in theory.

Of course, we can always just replace the injector. Is that a true fix? Well sure it is, but for how long? What's to say the new injector wont develop similar issues? We all know it likely will at some point. To me it seems silly to have to buy an entire new injector because the spool valve is sticking. I like to think most of the guys here are reasonably smart and capable people. I say it's time to come up with something to avoid injector replacement, and ideally improve on Ford's design of spool valves and their issues.

With that said, what exactly are the issues? Some seem to think it's spool valve wear. Others have noted upon dis-assembly that the spool valves seem to have some sort of a "coating" on them, like a build up of sorts. Ford says the stiction on the spool valves is actually the oil "clinging" to the spool valves and causing issues. Original strategies had the injectors buzz at shut down, to aid in "cleaning" the oil off of the spool valves and make start up easier. It was later found out that oil simply leaked back in and was still there regardless. Then they went to inductive heating! Ahhh! So the FICM basically applies power to the spool valve and "holds" it in position to simply heat up the spool valve and cause the oil to thin and drain off of the spool valve. This worked, in a sense, but we know it's hard on the electrical system, and the FICM as well.

I believe Jeremy, aka: lubeowner, has said previously that he has taken injectors apart and cleaned spool valves up with something similar to an emery cloth? Someone correct me if I'm wrong there... I know others have disagreed with this method. He claimed it worked like a charm, if I remember this right.

What about the shop using marvel mystery oil?http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28582&highlight=marvel+mystery Maybe instead of running the marvel in the engine like this (still a risk at this point IMO, just not enough data to support one way or the other), what if we took the injectors apart and simply cleaned up the spool valves? Maybe a combination of cleaning like power struck does, with some sort of solvent (outside of the truck!) and then some way to polish it up to prevent stiction as much as possible? What about a coating of some sort? We have some pretty incredible technologies now with materials and parts. We ceramic coat engine parts, Teflon coat piston skirts, etc. What about a low friction Teflon coating on the spool valve? Maybe not enough clearance. Ok, make a new spool valve slightly undersize and coat it to thickness???

Other in the marvel thread note the usage of ATF to clean injectors as well. I haven't heard much else about it, but another "option" I suppose.

My injector knowledge is limited at best at this point, but I'm planning on diving in head first in the coming months. This is a problem almost every 6.0 owner faces and it seems like we should be able to come up with a work-around to buying new injectors. Someone may jump in and just tell me this has already been thought about and isn't possible, that's fine too, we're all here to learn.

I'm just spit-balling here. Feel free to tell me I'm crazy, or just jump in on the discussion and add your thoughts. Nothing bad can come of simply discussing the issues and the obstacles at hand.

:D
 
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Cold Roller

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If it is just the spool-valve, Lubeowner's video with the 600-800 grit paper to take off the varnish works very well. One thing to consider is, you don't have to take the spool assembly off to remove the valve. However, if you take the valve off, you can inspect the intensifier piston, plunger and the bores.
 

NoSlow6.0

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I tried some of the Hotshots secret in my old 03 daily driver and it actually made the truck run worse for some reason. Not trying to slam anyones product or anything and have actually heard alot of people claim its really good stuff. But for some reason my truck just didn't like it at all. I actually experienced a seat of the pants decrease in power and reduced gas mileage calculated by hand. I also tried out the Rev X and it worked really well in the same vehicle. One of the few additives that actually did what they claimed. Just my experience.
 

amarillo250

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from what I know, there is only 3 companys they produce the 6.0 injectors and they are only sold comp. If someone can fabricate only the upper part with the spoolvalve, you can make a killing.
 

FallenAuthority

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Actually through my ceramic coating and powder coating ventures I have come across a "micro slick" coating that is supposed to reduce friction on oil lubed moving parts. May be worth a shot on the spool valves, I have never dug in as deep to disassemble a 6.0 injector but if the spool valve is removeable I could possibly try using this coating if you would like to guinea pig a set to see if they work any better.
 

Gary

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I bought the Hickok G2 scanner, with it I can read spool valve data and positively identify the problem injector. I can put it on a cold engine and start it up and watch which injector has stiction, then watch it go away as it warns up. I have been able to fix trucks that will not set misfire codes. This thing is the ticket for fixing 6.0 stiction.
 

Snake

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Mike, a guy over on the org recently tried Jeremy's method successfully. I also have had several offline conversations with him well in advance of his "experiment" and he's legit. Made me think twice about buying 8 new injectors, and I'm about at the point where I have to do something.
 

Mdub707

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If it is just the spool-valve, Lubeowner's video with the 600-800 grit paper to take off the varnish works very well. One thing to consider is, you don't have to take the spool assembly off to remove the valve. However, if you take the valve off, you can inspect the intensifier piston, plunger and the bores.

Mind posting the video? I don't think I've seen it. Before posting it, let's all agree this thread is for informational purposes only and just so everyone can learn. One method may not work for everyone.

from what I know, there is only 3 company's they produce the 6.0 injectors and they are only sold comp. If someone can fabricate only the upper part with the spoolvalve, you can make a killing.

I know Ford replaces the spool valves on their injectors. Rosewood Diesel, who is also a sponsor here, claims on their site that they replace the spool valves as well, on the injectors they sell. Though it looks like they don't' actually do it in house, just the way they sell them. http://www.rosewooddieselshop.com/ It looks like they basically offer Ford, Alliant, and D-tech. Are those the three you had in mind?

Actually through my ceramic coating and powder coating ventures I have come across a "micro slick" coating that is supposed to reduce friction on oil lubed moving parts. May be worth a shot on the spool valves, I have never dug in as deep to disassemble a 6.0 injector but if the spool valve is removable I could possibly try using this coating if you would like to guinea pig a set to see if they work any better.

Now this is kind of what I'm talking about. We need to be careful though, do you know how thick the layer is? How uniformly it can be laid down? If you add too much "build up" I'd imagine you're just going to create other problems. I need to pull one apart and do some base measurements first. I think there are going to be two kinds of approaches here. One, is going to be a way to clean and maybe polish the existing setup, for smooth operation. The second approach is going to be the coating like we're thinking, to improve or possibly eliminate this issue further down the road.

Mike, a guy over on the org recently tried Jeremy's method successfully. I also have had several offline conversations with him well in advance of his "experiment" and he's legit. Made me think twice about buying 8 new injectors, and I'm about at the point where I have to do something.

I'll have to look for that, or PM me a link if you get a second. I haven't been over there in some time.

I, like you, don't mind spending the money if I absolutely HAVE to, but I refuse to believe there is no way around this. I'm going to at least look into it and exhaust all options before plunking down the cash on new injectors.
 

04stroker

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I have used something similar to emery cloth with really good success with cleaning spool valves. I have looked into some kind of anti friction coating but never tried it because the tolerances are so small. Ultimately it would be nice if you could buy just the spool valve/solenoid assembly but I don't know where you can buy that. Defnitley in for info this could be a really good discussion. Another huge thing is the spool valve torque. Depending if its too tight or too loose it can cause it to miss either when cold or warm. I've actually just taken injectors out and retorqued the spool valve and it took care of the issue.
 
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FallenAuthority

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Mind posting the video? I don't think I've seen it. Before posting it, let's all agree this thread is for informational purposes only and just so everyone can learn. One method may not work for everyone.



I know Ford replaces the spool valves on their injectors. Rosewood Diesel, who is also a sponsor here, claims on their site that they replace the spool valves as well, on the injectors they sell. Though it looks like they don't' actually do it in house, just the way they sell them. http://www.rosewooddieselshop.com/ It looks like they basically offer Ford, Alliant, and D-tech. Are those the three you had in mind?



Now this is kind of what I'm talking about. We need to be careful though, do you know how thick the layer is? How uniformly it can be laid down? If you add too much "build up" I'd imagine you're just going to create other problems. I need to pull one apart and do some base measurements first. I think there are going to be two kinds of approaches here. One, is going to be a way to clean and maybe polish the existing setup, for smooth operation. The second approach is going to be the coating like we're thinking, to improve or possibly eliminate this issue further down the road.



I'll have to look for that, or PM me a link if you get a second. I haven't been over there in some time.

I, like you, don't mind spending the money if I absolutely HAVE to, but I refuse to believe there is no way around this. I'm going to at least look into it and exhaust all options before plunking down the cash on new injectors.

I will be glad to work with you on investigating this further. You get some base measurements, ill check on coating thickness and we can experiment if the measurements show room for coating.
 

Mdub707

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I have used something similar to emery cloth with really good success with cleaning spool valves. I have looked into some kind of anti friction coating but never tried it because the tolerances are so small. Ultimately it would be nice if you could buy just the spool valve/solenoid assembly but I don't know where you can buy that. Defnitley in for info this could be a really good discussion. Another huge thing is the spool valve torque. Depending if its too tight or too loose it can cause it to miss either when cold or warm. I've actually just taken injectors out and retorqued the spool valve and it took care of the issue.

That's very interesting. What are the torque specs? Did you just re-torque back to spec, or did you go higher/lower based on that situation. The tolerances I'm sure are incredibly small.

I will be glad to work with you on investigating this further. You get some base measurements, ill check on coating thickness and we can experiment if the measurements show room for coating.

Cool. Going with what 04stroker said, I'd assumed already that the tolerances were ridiculously tight, so with that said, I don't see why I can't have a spool valve made that is slightly undersized to what standard is, and then coat it to thickness. My only concern is uniformity of the coating across the part. I do have the capabilities to get one drawn up and made though, if need be. I just wanted to get the discussion out in the open first and see what everyone has tried or what hasn't worked or someone to just tell me I'm crazy.
 

lubeowner

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The sanding of the spool valve seems to work most of the time but it is not 100% success rate. I have had people call me and couldnt' get it to work and come to find out they were using some other compound to clean it. Like one guy was using Mothers and jus the small layer of that on it will make the vavle stick.

As far as the coating I don't think there is any way to do it. The tolerances are to tight and would cause stiction. Even the small layer of film that you take off is so slight you almost cannot see it with the naked eye. You can only see a color change.

Sand it, spray it off with brake Kleen and reinstall that it it. Also don't crank the spool valve bolt that holds both coils on too tight or it coudl cause a miss when the truck gets hot. Get feel for how tight the other ones are and try to get them the same.
 

Mdub707

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The sanding of the spool valve seems to work most of the time but it is not 100% success rate. I have had people call me and couldnt' get it to work and come to find out they were using some other compound to clean it. Like one guy was using Mothers and jus the small layer of that on it will make the vavle stick.

As far as the coating I don't think there is any way to do it. The tolerances are to tight and would cause stiction. Even the small layer of film that you take off is so slight you almost cannot see it with the naked eye. You can only see a color change.

Sand it, spray it off with brake Kleen and reinstall that it it. Also don't crank the spool valve bolt that holds both coils on too tight or it coudl cause a miss when the truck gets hot. Get feel for how tight the other ones are and try to get them the same.

I was hoping you would see this and chime in. As far as the tolerances being too tight on the spool valve for a coating... we'll see. Like I said, really going to depend on the uniformity of the coating in question. If it can be laid down on the part and be VERY uniform it might work. Even if it requires the machining of a completely new spool valve that is undersized. We can hold some pretty tight tolerances. I'm used to working in ten thousandths of an inch pretty regularly.
 

04stroker

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If love to see a coating work but I don't THINK it will not saying it won't. I don't know how you could get a coating uniform all the way across and around down too ten thousandths of an inch. Honestly I've never seen a torque spec for the spool valves and can't find one so I try different things all the time.
 

Mdub707

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I'm not saying the coating itself has to be ten thousandths, it can be whatever it needs to be, I would just undersize the spool valve accordingly. It may be a long shot, who knows. Just want to look at options right now. The coating is the only wild card. I know I can get a spool valve made any way I need it with tight tolerances, likely beyond whatever Ford uses. We may not need the coating. Or maybe we can coat the mating surfaces that the spool valve rides on. I really need to just take one apart and start taking measurements.
 

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