Oil And Grease Questions

jimdawg185

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In the next few weeks I would like to start a few education threads on lubrication. This thread here will be an open question forum, and maybe help me with some direction for the other threads that I start that will be more specific.

Just a quick something about me...

I have been around this forum and some of the other ones for years. Ive drank whiskey and shine with many of you at TS and SDX. I love these trucks and love making them run as best as they can as long as they can with as much HP as possible.

I am a direct employee of LE. I am not an independent rep or a distributor. I am one of only a few hundred STLE certified CLS' and ICML MLT level 2 and ICML MLA level 2's on the planet. I work on everything from lawn tractors to power plants. Mostly power plant fuel path and turbines, large fleets, and mining equipment. In an effort to keep this thread straight forward I will leave the rest for another day.

A couple of guide lines...

I do not want to get in any pissing matches over who's favorite oil is this or that. Let's stick to open questions about oil and grease (feel free to mention a brand if you want) and lets keep the back and forth data driven. I will do my best not to be too bias ( I love the products I sell and believe in them 100%, but that does not mean I need to bash any of my competitors to prove their worth, I let the results and data analysis speak for itself).

I would like to keep these threads question driven. I will have specific topics, but I want to hear from ya'll want you want to know more about. Education is key to improving machine reliability. Questions like what oil at Auto Zone is better should be saved for a phone or email conversation. I might give a tutorial of engine oils from the major brands some time, but I really want this thread and the educational threads to be driven by you the consumer gaining knowledge...

So, who want to get the party started. What questions do you have about Tribology?????
 

Isobaric

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How about starting with a breakdown of the major additives (Cal, Mag, Phos, Zinc, Boron, Moly, etc) and what they bring to the table in an additive package? It may be review to some of us, but should help bring others up to speed.

Will be following this thread closely.
 

PABowhunter

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I saw some of your posts on some older threads regarding oil shear on HEUI systems as well as by pass systems.

Can you expound a little on why the 7.3 doesn't shear oil as bad as the 6.0? Does the oil weight matter in these applications?

Also, what goes into a good by pass system and what is your take on extended oil drains with by pass systems?
 
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psduser1

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I saw some of your posts on some older threads regarding oil shear on HEUI systems as well as by pass systems.

Can you expound a little on why the 7.3 doesn't shear oil as bad as the 6.0? Does the oil weight matter in these applications?

Also, what goes into a good by pass system and your take on extended oil drains with by pass systems?
Curious as well, I've never thought that extended oci were worth doing on 7.3s, due to shear.
 

ToMang07

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I've ran a good synthetic for between 12-15k miles, and sheering has never been an issue. Neither has additives.

Only issues are built up carbon and wear metals, from extended intervals.

No problems thus far. I do however run that big azz donaldson oil filter.
 

jimdawg185

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Isobaric, I will dedicate a thread just for the add packs. I don't think I can do it justice with just a quick response, but I will try real quick...

Zinc or ZDDP
Antiwear and antioxidant

Phosphorus
Antiwear and possible detergent

Calcium
Detergent

Magnesium
Add pack that acts as a detergent and dispersant

Barium
Detergent

Moly
A solid antiwear additive

Sodium, Potassium are contaminates (usually point to coolant ingression)

Silicon is usually dirt

Iron, copper, lead, aluminum, nickle, tin, cadmium, silver, and chromium are typical wear metals.

TBN is the total base number. This reflects the base reserve left in the oil

TAN is usually not used in engine oils.

Fuel is just that, fuel that has gotten in the oil.

Soot, aslo self explanitory

Vis is measured at 40c and 100c. In engine oils usually 100c. Obviously important but needs to be kept in the loop with soot and fuel (soot artificially increases vis, fuel decreases vis).
 

CATDiezel

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Wow... no question as of yet... however I am glad I was pointed to this thread.

I'll come up with a doosey of a question for you shortly or soon! Lol
 

jimdawg185

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I saw some of your posts on some older threads regarding oil shear on HEUI systems as well as by pass systems.

Can you expound a little on why the 7.3 doesn't shear oil as bad as the 6.0? Does the oil weight matter in these applications?

Also, what goes into a good by pass system and what is your take on extended oil drains with by pass systems?

The short story is spool valves shear oil down at an exponential rate. 7.3's do shear more than a non HEUI would. But 6.0s are just really bad. Ive seen reports where they shear the oil more than 20% in the first 1000 miles.

Bypass systems are complex and simple at the same time. First, they all filter the oil. The key is two part. One, how well does it filter. And how well is it designed to bleed off the OE oil system and not hurt the OE functions and still push enough oil through the bypass to actually do some good.

Most OE oil filters only filter nominally to 20 microns at less than a beta 200 at 25 micron. What that basically means is that its a carnage filter. It filters out big particles. Bypass filters are usually 1-3 micron at a higher beta. Most that I have seen are regular spin on filters. And unless they are microglass, they don't have much of a higher beta than the OE filters do though. SO they are a step in the right direction. The next step would be a depth media filtration, which would approach beta 1000 and is the best you can get in the filtration world.

Why is this important....

Clearance of the hydrodynamic film of your typical engine bearing is 1-4 microns. These are the particles that are going to do the most damage in the long run because they can actually fit in between the asperities and do damage. Larger particles can still do damage, but not as much as the ones that are to size...

This is not just important in extended drains, but for the life of the engine in general. Where it comes into play for extended PM's is that it helps the oil get the particles out.

The detergent and dispersant package int he oil itself is more important in extended drains. You need reserves of these things for the oil to live and do its job. If they deplete, then the oil is no longer good. Good detergents grab contaminates and place them in the filter by making the particle larger (by bonding to it) and stopping in the large filter pores.
 

jimdawg185

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I saw some of your posts on some older threads regarding oil shear on HEUI systems as well as by pass systems.

Can you expound a little on why the 7.3 doesn't shear oil as bad as the 6.0? Does the oil weight matter in these applications?

Also, what goes into a good by pass system and what is your take on extended oil drains with by pass systems?

The short story is spool valves shear oil down at an exponential rate. 7.3's do shear more than a non HEUI would. But 6.0s are just really bad. Ive seen reports where they shear the oil more than 20% in the first 1000 miles.

Bypass systems are complex and simple at the same time. First, they all filter the oil. The key is two part. One, how well does it filter. And how well is it designed to bleed off the OE oil system and not hurt the OE functions and still push enough oil through the bypass to actually do some good.

Most OE oil filters only filter nominally to 20 microns at less than a beta 200 at 25 micron. What that basically means is that its a carnage filter. It filters out big particles. Bypass filters are usually 1-3 micron at a higher beta. Most that I have seen are regular spin on filters. And unless they are microglass, they don't have much of a higher beta than the OE filters do though. SO they are a step in the right direction. The next step would be a depth media filtration, which would approach beta 1000 and is the best you can get in the filtration world.

Why is this important....

Clearance of the hydrodynamic film of your typical engine bearing is 1-4 microns. These are the particles that are going to do the most damage in the long run because they can actually fit in between the asperities and do damage. Larger particles can still do damage, but not as much as the ones that are to size...

This is not just important in extended drains, but for the life of the engine in general. Where it comes into play for extended PM's is that it helps the oil get the particles out.

The detergent and dispersant package int he oil itself is more important in extended drains. You need reserves of these things for the oil to live and do its job. If they deplete, then the oil is no longer good. Good detergents grab contaminates and place them in the filter by making the particle larger (by bonding to it) and stopping in the large filter pores.
 

swinky

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So what's a good weight for a 6.0 that sees a lot of 1/4 mile passes? I'm in north Carolina. Lowest temps in winter are around 15°
 

CATDiezel

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Here is a question.

Is it safe to add in the depleted additives to an existing oil?

IF so, how would you go about doing so?
 

jimdawg185

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6.0's really like 5w40. But make sure its a high quality one (full synthetic PAO)
If you are open to trying LE let me know, if you are not happy I always guarantee money back (granted I have never had to pay :))
 

swinky

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6.0's really like 5w40. But make sure its a high quality one (full synthetic PAO)
If you are open to trying LE let me know, if you are not happy I always guarantee money back (granted I have never had to pay :))
I just filled it with delo syn. I'll give it a shot in 4k miles.
 

jimdawg185

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Here is a question.

Is it safe to add in the depleted additives to an existing oil?

IF so, how would you go about doing so?

I would never do this, ever. Oil companies go through a lot to get the right mix of chemicals so that the oil balances well.

That being said, there are people that do it with no problems. One of my power plants literally have fights break out whenever they talk about doing this in their turbines. Their reservoirs are thousands of gallons though so the cost savings is huge in the short run. I always tell them that I will not be a part of it, but I always end up getting pulled into it. And it almost never works out in the long run.
 

jimdawg185

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I just filled it with delo syn. I'll give it a shot in 4k miles.

When and if you decide to give it a go, I would like to get an oil analysis of the DELO if you don't mind. I love to compare stuff... I am fascinated with 6.0's and how they treat oil.
 

CATDiezel

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I would never do this, ever. Oil companies go through a lot to get the right mix of chemicals so that the oil balances well.

That being said, there are people that do it with no problems. One of my power plants literally have fights break out whenever they talk about doing this in their turbines. Their reservoirs are thousands of gallons though so the cost savings is huge in the short run. I always tell them that I will not be a part of it, but I always end up getting pulled into it. And it almost never works out in the long run.

Thats what i was afraid you were going to say.
 

swinky

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When and if you decide to give it a go, I would like to get an oil analysis of the DELO if you don't mind. I love to compare stuff... I am fascinated with 6.0's and how they treat oil.
I'll send some to you for sure. How long do you want me to run it?
 

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