6.7 Head gaskets???
- Thread starter DaCajun
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Well, to be honest, I really didn't to want bother any of the guys in the shops. I try to respect they have work to do and care not to tie them up over a simple question. I suppose I'll go ahead and order a pair and upon receiving them I'll measure 'em and report back with my findings and post it up here just incase anyone else in the future is looking for the same....
But I do thank you for the pointer Mr. Cain!!! :thumbsup:
Bigharm thanks again for your efforts. I ordered a pair and they just came in yesterday so I may have an answer. Now I don't know for sure if I can consider this to be the absolute compression thickness or not, but I take my digital caliper and compress the caliper as tight as I can over the gasket and I get around .065. Incase anyone is wondering these are MLS (Multi Layered Steel) head gaskets. Much different than the head gaskets of old.... They are the latest and greatest thing in sealing cylinder heads to the block!!! And this being in gas power motors as well.... I may give Cometic a call tomorrow and see if they can let me know how accurate this method is...Oh, Cometic is a huge producer of MLS head gaskets....These Ford gaskets are made by MAHLE but Cometic's information should work just fine....
Now with this project I have going on I measured the piston protrusion, the piston coming out of the hole, I get .015. So the gasket thickness of .065 minus the piston protrusion of .015 I get .050 quench. Now I would like to admit, I don't have very much experience building diesel engines, but have done plenty of high horse powered gas and alcohol burners. Now they are all basically air pumps but they go about combustion and igniting each fuel just a bit different. A diesel engine has it's combustion chamber in the pistons. And this is where I'd really like to learn the details of maximizing this combustion. The 7.3s had a compression ratio of 17.5:1. And then with the 6.0 Ford, or rather International, had slight increase in the compression bumping those up to 18:1!!! And then with the 6.4 they dropped 'em back down to 17.5:1. And now the Ford designed and built 6.7L, they did a pretty drastic drop in compression ratio by bringing it down to a whopping 16.1:1!!!! Diesel fuel differs than gasoline as it has a cetane rating versus gasoline's octane rating...
Anyways, I'm playing around with a build I'm doing for myself by addressing the known to be a bit weak stock 6.7 rods. This engine I'm building is in no way going to be be a max effort drag racing engine but more so for towing. However I'd like to leave a little room on the table for more power capabilities down the rod. I just cannot justify the $3500 for a set of billet rods for this build so I'm going with a new set of 6.0 rods with ARP rod bolts. These rods are said to be good for up to the 750hp range. I don't think I'm going to ever ask for more than that, so I think these should serve my needs. I haven't decided yet, and it's going to depend on the cost, but I may send these 6.0 rods out to have them cryoed. Now to make these work properly in a 6.7L there needs to be some additional machine work done as the rod journals are smaller on the 6.0 rods which will require the rod journals on the 6.7 crankshaft to be turned down to the correct size. By turning down the 6.7 crankshaft's rod journals that much it will go deeper than the original heat treatment on those journals. No big deal as I have a local company that can nitride harden the journals after they've been turned down to size. So there's going to be a bit of math involved to make all this work correctly, but I feel confident we can get her done. Also, being that the rod journals are getting reduced and the length of the 6.0 connecting rods are a bit different, a little bit stroke can be gained in this process. The goal is to retain the .015 piston protrusion, that is if I'm looking to retain the stock compression ratio??? Is there anything to be gained by increasing the compression??? Well, there's always and increase in power in doing so. But I'd have to take in consideration the valves kissing the pistons if I fail to keep those in mind!!! So???
Anyways, sorry if I got a bit winded with this conversation, but I felt I'd like to share this little project with you guys in hopes of us all learning a little some'n, some'n in the details of these awesome engines!!!
And by all means, if any of you guys find any of this to be inaccurate, please feel free to critique and let me know what I have wrong. Like I said earlier, I would like to learn the details of diesel engines so I'm always open to any corrections or if anyone would like to share their knowledge of these beasts and how to make 'em tick just a little bit better!!!! :ford:
Oh, a little more detail, this engine is receiving a complete rebuild, a 1mm over bore (same as .020), all new pistons which will be delipped and ceramic coated crowns, the block will be squared up and decked, head studs, main studs and align honed. I have a brand new set of 2015 heads that'll be sealing up this little puppy.... And an upgraded turbo along with dual fuel pumps, and maybe some other little area address along the way!!! This going in an F450 chassis with 4.88s in the front and rear, yea 4x4, mainly to be used for towing my gooseneck car hauler and some daily driving. To make the ride a bit more comfortable I'm building my own custom four link air suspension in the rear and airbags in the two front corners just as well.....I will start a build thread and share plenty of pictures with you guys as well, everyone likes pictures right??? Till then, here's a link to my other project a twin turbo drag radial C5 Z06 corvette..... http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132659&highlight=
Again, sorry for getting too winded, but I have ideas in my head and feel the need to get em out!!!!
Now with this project I have going on I measured the piston protrusion, the piston coming out of the hole, I get .015. So the gasket thickness of .065 minus the piston protrusion of .015 I get .050 quench. Now I would like to admit, I don't have very much experience building diesel engines, but have done plenty of high horse powered gas and alcohol burners. Now they are all basically air pumps but they go about combustion and igniting each fuel just a bit different. A diesel engine has it's combustion chamber in the pistons. And this is where I'd really like to learn the details of maximizing this combustion. The 7.3s had a compression ratio of 17.5:1. And then with the 6.0 Ford, or rather International, had slight increase in the compression bumping those up to 18:1!!! And then with the 6.4 they dropped 'em back down to 17.5:1. And now the Ford designed and built 6.7L, they did a pretty drastic drop in compression ratio by bringing it down to a whopping 16.1:1!!!! Diesel fuel differs than gasoline as it has a cetane rating versus gasoline's octane rating...
Anyways, I'm playing around with a build I'm doing for myself by addressing the known to be a bit weak stock 6.7 rods. This engine I'm building is in no way going to be be a max effort drag racing engine but more so for towing. However I'd like to leave a little room on the table for more power capabilities down the rod. I just cannot justify the $3500 for a set of billet rods for this build so I'm going with a new set of 6.0 rods with ARP rod bolts. These rods are said to be good for up to the 750hp range. I don't think I'm going to ever ask for more than that, so I think these should serve my needs. I haven't decided yet, and it's going to depend on the cost, but I may send these 6.0 rods out to have them cryoed. Now to make these work properly in a 6.7L there needs to be some additional machine work done as the rod journals are smaller on the 6.0 rods which will require the rod journals on the 6.7 crankshaft to be turned down to the correct size. By turning down the 6.7 crankshaft's rod journals that much it will go deeper than the original heat treatment on those journals. No big deal as I have a local company that can nitride harden the journals after they've been turned down to size. So there's going to be a bit of math involved to make all this work correctly, but I feel confident we can get her done. Also, being that the rod journals are getting reduced and the length of the 6.0 connecting rods are a bit different, a little bit stroke can be gained in this process. The goal is to retain the .015 piston protrusion, that is if I'm looking to retain the stock compression ratio??? Is there anything to be gained by increasing the compression??? Well, there's always and increase in power in doing so. But I'd have to take in consideration the valves kissing the pistons if I fail to keep those in mind!!! So???
Anyways, sorry if I got a bit winded with this conversation, but I felt I'd like to share this little project with you guys in hopes of us all learning a little some'n, some'n in the details of these awesome engines!!!
And by all means, if any of you guys find any of this to be inaccurate, please feel free to critique and let me know what I have wrong. Like I said earlier, I would like to learn the details of diesel engines so I'm always open to any corrections or if anyone would like to share their knowledge of these beasts and how to make 'em tick just a little bit better!!!! :ford:
Oh, a little more detail, this engine is receiving a complete rebuild, a 1mm over bore (same as .020), all new pistons which will be delipped and ceramic coated crowns, the block will be squared up and decked, head studs, main studs and align honed. I have a brand new set of 2015 heads that'll be sealing up this little puppy.... And an upgraded turbo along with dual fuel pumps, and maybe some other little area address along the way!!! This going in an F450 chassis with 4.88s in the front and rear, yea 4x4, mainly to be used for towing my gooseneck car hauler and some daily driving. To make the ride a bit more comfortable I'm building my own custom four link air suspension in the rear and airbags in the two front corners just as well.....I will start a build thread and share plenty of pictures with you guys as well, everyone likes pictures right??? Till then, here's a link to my other project a twin turbo drag radial C5 Z06 corvette..... http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132659&highlight=
Again, sorry for getting too winded, but I have ideas in my head and feel the need to get em out!!!!
CATDiezel
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The money you will have wrapped up in live tuning for a stroked engine will eat up all your savings versus buying a set of billet rods. U less ypu plan on doing your own tuning. I personally don't see any savings in going the route you have planned.
Sounds interesting to say the least tho!! The first stroked what used to be 6.7L scorpion.
Sounds interesting to say the least tho!! The first stroked what used to be 6.7L scorpion.
Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto
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Elite diesel has a kit already done to accept 6.0 rods. I don't know how much your are going to have wrapped up in them, but it may not be worth the time vs buying it already done.
Don't forget about the re-balance of the assembly as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Don't forget about the re-balance of the assembly as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First off the stroke gained from this is going to be minimal at best, so that really shouldn't be too much of an issue.... But by all means, thanks for that thought!!!
Second, buying billet rods wouldn't be an issue if this was my only project I have on going. I have a twin turbo drag car looking to make very close to 3000hp. I'm having to purchase a billet block $14,000.00, billet crankshaft $3250.00, Billet aluminum rods $1500, pistons and so much more. Oh and the cylinder heads which I've already purchased and have about $10,000.00 in those!!! And that's just one of the three projects I have planned. I have two other 69 Camaros that I'll be building as well, one a ProStreet car the other a ProTouring car. So as you can see, the truck hobby is not really may main deal, it is fun, but I have other passions to finish as well.....
Morgan, yes, I'm very much aware of Elite's offerings and yea that is very tempting. But doing this myself I get to learn and plus I can save around $1500 or so in the process. I realize to some $1500 may not be worth the headache but I see this as that $1500 can go to other much needed parts like a turbo and such!!! If you just have everyone do everything for you, you don't learn. Myself I don't mind getting my hands dirty and learning a thing or two!!!! But that's just me I suppose......
I do appreciate you guy's feedback and concerns!!!!
Second, buying billet rods wouldn't be an issue if this was my only project I have on going. I have a twin turbo drag car looking to make very close to 3000hp. I'm having to purchase a billet block $14,000.00, billet crankshaft $3250.00, Billet aluminum rods $1500, pistons and so much more. Oh and the cylinder heads which I've already purchased and have about $10,000.00 in those!!! And that's just one of the three projects I have planned. I have two other 69 Camaros that I'll be building as well, one a ProStreet car the other a ProTouring car. So as you can see, the truck hobby is not really may main deal, it is fun, but I have other passions to finish as well.....
Morgan, yes, I'm very much aware of Elite's offerings and yea that is very tempting. But doing this myself I get to learn and plus I can save around $1500 or so in the process. I realize to some $1500 may not be worth the headache but I see this as that $1500 can go to other much needed parts like a turbo and such!!! If you just have everyone do everything for you, you don't learn. Myself I don't mind getting my hands dirty and learning a thing or two!!!! But that's just me I suppose......
I do appreciate you guy's feedback and concerns!!!!
sootie
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maybe true if you were doing something ground-breaking. Reinventing the wheel isnt really a practical use of resources imo...
I swear some of you must wake up on the wrong side of the bed daily!!!
Would it kill some of you guys to NOT be so damn negative all the damn time??? Sure, I'm taking on a project that may not agree with your capabilities or rather your lack of capabilities , but so what??? It's my project, not yours!!!! I think I was pretty clear of my intentions of sharing what I learn in case others may want to learn as well....I really just don't get it, if someone prefers a blue truck and you don't agree with that, couldn't you just give the man a nice compliment or not say anything at all??? Is life really that bad???
Better yet, if there's an ignore function on this site how about you put it to good use so you don't have to feel the need to bother yourself with what I have going on!!! I'm doing this for ME not you or anyone else!!! If you don't like it, tuff chit!! Now go find yourself a bottle of happiness, cus it sure looks like you could use it!!!! Damn!!!:fustrate:
CATDiezel
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It appears the elite 6.0 rod kit isn't that expensive since it includes pistons (correct me if I'm wrong).
It is a cool project. Just a risky one. The reason I say that is because of the r&d work that went into producing that specific kit on their dime.
Not saying it can't be done by and individual. And I don't know your connections either.... but 90% of machines shops whether engine builder or not don't have a clue what their doing and could cost you dearly on the back end. If you got that covered than no big deal!!!
Press on. It should be a cool project. Yes. MLS gaskets have been being used for quite some time now well before the 6.7l debut in the automotive industry.
It is a cool project. Just a risky one. The reason I say that is because of the r&d work that went into producing that specific kit on their dime.
Not saying it can't be done by and individual. And I don't know your connections either.... but 90% of machines shops whether engine builder or not don't have a clue what their doing and could cost you dearly on the back end. If you got that covered than no big deal!!!
Press on. It should be a cool project. Yes. MLS gaskets have been being used for quite some time now well before the 6.7l debut in the automotive industry.
My intentions are not to take anything away from their kit, and no it does not come with pistons. Their kit is $2350.00, and that's with you supplying your own crankshaft, but not balanced that's an extra $350. They do supply the rods at that price. Pistons are another $800...
Now what I can do here locally to me is have the crankshaft machined $300, the crankshaft rod journals nitride hardened $300 and the final balancing between $300 to $350. I can buy brand new Mahle pistons, pin, locks and rings for $785 shipped. The big end of the rods will need to be faced, no big deal as I have access to a machine shop and will do those myself for free. And as for as all the block machining, that will be done by my automotive machinist on a Cylinder Block CNC machine. As stated before I will have the mains fitted with ARP Studs then align honed. Then the block is going to get squared up with the mains and decked. It is vital I get the cylinder block work done first so I'll have the true deck height this way I can crunch the numbers so I can have my original .015 piston protrusion the shortblock is completed.. As for as the cylinder heads, I will also be doing a bit of work on those myself. Stuff bowl blending and touching up the exhaust ports, but not too much as I want to retain the velocity of those hot gases...
I get it, this is more than a simple bolt on which appears to be way more than most in here are comfortable with, but in the Hot Rod world these things are done all the time.
CATDiezel
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I agree. Gasser industry has to THINK more for sure..... the diesel industry is ate up with no brainer suck bang blow bolt on parts.
If you measure cylinder protrusion and trust your instrument (hopefully Starrett) than carry on!!! Reverse engineering has been going on since Adam and Eve!
If you measure cylinder protrusion and trust your instrument (hopefully Starrett) than carry on!!! Reverse engineering has been going on since Adam and Eve!
Now I'm not going that far to saying the diesel industry is a no brainer suck bang blow bolt on parts. Oh, no!!! With the combustion pressures some of these guys are running, well all I can say is, Jesus Christ!!!!!
Like I said earlier, I'm in now way trying to act as if I know all of this stuff...cuss I just don't!!! But I do know I can learn and I do have much learning to do with these oil burners!!! But I was hoping to discuss all of the details of this awesome engine in hopes that WE ALL may learn a thing or two!!! Afterall, is this not what's so great about sites such as this one???? Sharing and Learning!!! But sadly, there's always the negative, pessimistic critics who just has to try their damndest to F___k it all up!!!!
Now I may make a mistake or two, but that surely won't be the first time that's happened!!! Hopefully I can cover all the bases and get this thing a rocking and rollin!!!
I truly believe when a man or a woman has the determination to get something done, and really want's it bad enough and is willing to make some sacrifices, and is willing to learn from their mistakes, we all have it in us, you just gotta dig deep to find it within ourselves to get it done!!!!
I posted this link earlier maybe you guys saw it or not but here's a link to one of my other projects.... And I've never done anything remotely like that before, but thankfully the determination was there.....
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132659&highlight=
The last thing I ever wanted was for this thread to be negative, hopefully moving forward it doesn't have to continue that way.....I agree, projects like this may NOT be for everyone, they're reserved for the idiots in the world such as myself!!!! :thumbsup:
Yes sir, always!!! Everything is being done will good tools and equipment....
And I do Thank You for the heads up!!! :thumbup:
CATDiezel
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I'll be following your progression. For the sake of FUN I hope you post up everything and step you do... although I simply don't have the time to dive into projects like this anymore I certainly do enjoy thinking about the engineering aspects of it.
You'll have to understand that ALOT of the folks trying to attempt stuff like what your doing are headed for disaster quickly. That's more of the explanation for some of the guys coming off as "negative"
It's just a fact that alot of the gasser guys have alot more "engineering" understanding than most diesel heads... those guys do a fair bit more than folks looking to plug a turbo on a truck with a set of tools picked up from sears. I grew up with those already old school guys and to them cutting a crankshaft was as normal as taking a leak when they felt the urge!
My main concern with a slightly stroked engine is fueling. You will need a custom tune configuration to make things right. Many will say NAH. BUT the simple fact is your looking to make a longer stroke with a every so slightly heavier rod. If you were to run a heavier rod it might make a hair more sense. A model of the weights would have to be run on a balancing program to see what the inertia ratio would be. (I know I've gone overboard here.... lol). It very well may be possible to add a small and I mean small amount of weight to the rotating assembly as in drill holds in the weights on the crank and add lead plugs. There again you could probably just leave it alone. I'm not sure if the industry lends to the 6.7l market enough to yet care but a raise wrist pin bore would be ideal to offset the rise. However.... way overboard.
Just clip the piston tops and coat them! Done.
Having working hand and hand with large frame turbines and 10,000hp turbo chargers I learned quickly that balancing is not rocket science. A $250,000 turbocharger gets balanced with a 3m buffing pad! Lol... Rodso and pistons... I would set them on a high dollar scale that was used to measure grains of powder!! Worked fine for me and was more accurate tHan the old dusty never calibrated scale at the machine shop!
You'll have to understand that ALOT of the folks trying to attempt stuff like what your doing are headed for disaster quickly. That's more of the explanation for some of the guys coming off as "negative"
It's just a fact that alot of the gasser guys have alot more "engineering" understanding than most diesel heads... those guys do a fair bit more than folks looking to plug a turbo on a truck with a set of tools picked up from sears. I grew up with those already old school guys and to them cutting a crankshaft was as normal as taking a leak when they felt the urge!
My main concern with a slightly stroked engine is fueling. You will need a custom tune configuration to make things right. Many will say NAH. BUT the simple fact is your looking to make a longer stroke with a every so slightly heavier rod. If you were to run a heavier rod it might make a hair more sense. A model of the weights would have to be run on a balancing program to see what the inertia ratio would be. (I know I've gone overboard here.... lol). It very well may be possible to add a small and I mean small amount of weight to the rotating assembly as in drill holds in the weights on the crank and add lead plugs. There again you could probably just leave it alone. I'm not sure if the industry lends to the 6.7l market enough to yet care but a raise wrist pin bore would be ideal to offset the rise. However.... way overboard.
Just clip the piston tops and coat them! Done.
Having working hand and hand with large frame turbines and 10,000hp turbo chargers I learned quickly that balancing is not rocket science. A $250,000 turbocharger gets balanced with a 3m buffing pad! Lol... Rodso and pistons... I would set them on a high dollar scale that was used to measure grains of powder!! Worked fine for me and was more accurate tHan the old dusty never calibrated scale at the machine shop!
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