Hotrodtractor
Moderator
Why not remove the column shifter all together and shift the valve body using a servo much like what many of the over the road automatic trucks use - specifically like the Allison 1000 in the box van trucks?
My tow pig/DD build thread. F350/Cummins 6.7/twins/6R140
- Thread starter me2
- Start date
The column shifter is plug and play. And its simple.
If I remove it I have to relocate the tow haul switch and find a place for the up/down button on it that I want to use for exhaust braking. I like how Volvo does it on their iShift and this positioning is similar.
And if I use a servo then I have to have a shift lever with Park, Neutral, Reverse, Drive, etc. There certainly isn't room for that on the column shifter I am building. There is barely enough room for up and down positions between the lid and the cupholder.
And I like the idea of using the column shifter to set the gear(valve body) and then using the console shifter to tailor it or change modes. In auto mode anyone can jump in my truck, throw it in Drive and drive it just like any other truck.
This is my third kick at the shifting setup. Another thing I tried was the floor shifter setup from a (cough) Toyota Tundra (cough). I could probably make it work and it has a really nice shift flow to it, but I would have to give up the floor space between the console and the lower dash and that is too precious. I have stuff that goes there.
There are obviously many ways to do this. Each to their own. If I find I dislike my setup, I can always change it later.
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Project20v
New member
Do you have some pics and or part number for the 110v outlets? I have not located any that I like yet. Thanks.
Just so that there is no mis interpretation, I better explain a few things.
The 6R140 and others like it shift with 2 sets of controls.
The first is the valve body. In a Superduty a mechanical cable connects the column shift lever to a shaft in the valve body. When you move the lever, the shaft selects various gear options such as Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive, etc by moving the valve body shaft and changing the oil flow in the valve body.
However, nothing except limp mode works by the valve body alone. Once the valve body position is selected, the transmission control unit takes over and sets the line pressure and controls the various shift solenoids, which control the oil supply to the various clutches.
The TCU knows which shift position the driver has selected via a sender connected to the valve body shaft. The valve body makes oil pressure pressure available to the various clutches and shift solenoids for the option selected (Park, Reverse, Neutral..) and its up to the TCU to provide the right pressure and volumes to the clutches at the right time to effect good transmission operation.
So when HRT asks me about using a servo on the valve body, he is speaking about replacing the column shift lever and cable with an actuator that can be controlled electronically to select Park, Neutral... Drive.
Even though I am using the column shift lever and the driver is manually selecting the "gear", ie Park, Neutral... Drive, when the driver puts the transmission in Drive, my transmission controller will still have full control over the operation of the transmission for all the forward gears. It won't be able to put the transmission in Reverse, because that requires a valve body shaft movement. But it can shift 1st, 2nd... 6th, anyway it desires.
Thus the need for the console shifter. Within the Drive option will be several sub options, some of which will allow the driver full manual control over gear selection. The console shifter will allow the driver to command an upshift or downshift in those modes.
You guys probably knew this already, but there it is anyway.
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It took me 3 trial orders to get these.
About $13 each from a Ford dealer. They kept getting the round 12V outlets instead. They are from a 2011 Superduty.
As far as I can tell they are only available in black. They are made to snap into a squarish hole.
The cover says 150 Watts. I'm not sure if that is the limit of the Ford inverter or the plug. Or both. I believe that Superduties with the factory inverter only have one outlet The connecting pins are pretty small.
I have not found pigtails for them. A Ford partsman claims to have found a pigtail for them, but I am not convinced that its the right one and he wants $65 for it. Doesn't seem right. I'm tired of ordering obscure parts.
If you cut off the connector shell plastic around the pins, they protrude about half an inch into a cavity.
I haven't tried to figure out the pinouts yet. I have the 2011 wiring diagrams and I will eventually.
I am probably going to put 4 outlets in my truck.
- One inside the console so that we can charge something and have it out of sight from tempting someone to take it.
- One coming out the back of the console for people in the back seat to use. The only place I can see to do this is to replace the round 12V outlet, which won't look quite right or mount it on the flat part of the rear cupholders on the console, haven't decided this yet.
- One somewhere on the front of the console so that the passenger can plug something in without having it plugged into the dash.
- One replacing the round 12V outlet in the dash as we never use it anyway.
I always find decisions like this hard to make and I hate cutting up my truck for fear of making a mistake. Thus I dislike doing things like this.
I am looking for a HD covered 120V outlet for the truck bed. A partsman tells me that the Ranger based SUV vehicle came with one once, but he can't find a part number. I know that some Toyota trucks have a 120VAC outlet in the bed.
FYI, I am powering my outlets with a Xantex 1000 watt pure sine inverter. I'll be mounting it to the back wall of the cab.
Hope this helps.
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Inverter Wiring Warning
One thing to note about inverters is that if you are connecting anything to a computer that connects to the ground on the truck, you have to check that the inverter ground is the same voltage as the truck ground.
Take the EFI Live programmer, for example. The programming tool is USB based, which means that it connects to the computer ground. And the programming tool also connects to the CAN Bus connector, which has vehicle ground.
So if you have a laptop running via its battery charger from the inverter and you have the EFI Live programmer plugged into the CAN Bus port and connected to the computer, you have connected the inverter ground to the truck chassis ground.
Sometimes this works just fine and sometimes it will fry either the laptop or the charger or the programming tool. Or maybe all three ! Before you do something like that, you need to verify that the inverter ground is at the same voltage as the chassis ground, even with a load connected. Some/most inverters tie the AC output ground to the 12VDC input (chassis) ground, but some don't.
I haven't looked at the Xantrex 1000 yet, but I have a Xantrex Prosine 2.5 in our trailer and it has a dedicated chassis connection to tie the AC ground to chassis ground. Every inverter is probably a bit different in this regard.
The same thing applies to other devices powered by the inverter, such as oscilloscopes and stand alone scan tools.
Hope this helps someone.
One thing to note about inverters is that if you are connecting anything to a computer that connects to the ground on the truck, you have to check that the inverter ground is the same voltage as the truck ground.
Take the EFI Live programmer, for example. The programming tool is USB based, which means that it connects to the computer ground. And the programming tool also connects to the CAN Bus connector, which has vehicle ground.
So if you have a laptop running via its battery charger from the inverter and you have the EFI Live programmer plugged into the CAN Bus port and connected to the computer, you have connected the inverter ground to the truck chassis ground.
Sometimes this works just fine and sometimes it will fry either the laptop or the charger or the programming tool. Or maybe all three ! Before you do something like that, you need to verify that the inverter ground is at the same voltage as the chassis ground, even with a load connected. Some/most inverters tie the AC output ground to the 12VDC input (chassis) ground, but some don't.
I haven't looked at the Xantrex 1000 yet, but I have a Xantrex Prosine 2.5 in our trailer and it has a dedicated chassis connection to tie the AC ground to chassis ground. Every inverter is probably a bit different in this regard.
The same thing applies to other devices powered by the inverter, such as oscilloscopes and stand alone scan tools.
Hope this helps someone.
Mark Kovalsky
Active member
Some time ago I worked on a transmission and control system for a Baja racing team. We were using the 4R100 trans, which was the newest trans at the time.
We used a manual shifter to set the manual valve in the valve body, and then an electrical switch to upshift and downshift. We used an industrial switch that I think I bought at Graingers. This switch had a 2" tall lever and only had about a half inch of travel. We also had it set for forward was upshift and rearward was downshift.
You probably won't run into the problem we found. This truck had MONSTER brakes, and under hard braking the driver couldn't pull the shifter back to get a downshift! We swapped the wires so he could push to get an downshift. This was MUCH easier under race conditions.
It
Did your lever/switch look like these ?
They have short levers, but the throw is pretty long, nearly an inch. And its not crisp either.
The problem I have is that the mass of the Meritor shift knob will move the various off the shelf levers during accelerator and/or braking. None of the various shifter type lever switches I've looked at are suitable to mount that knob on top of. I want that knob for the various buttons it has.
The Meritor shift knob actually has a 4 position rocker built into the side of it. The two center positions are continuous contact. The 2 outer positions are momentary contact. So I could use it for the up down shifting, but I am probably going to use that switch for another function.
I had that shift knob mounted in my old truck on the ZF6 with a custom shift lever. I loved it. If I can't have a ZF6 in my new truck, I'm at least going to have the shift knob I loved ! (Picture from when I was installing it, not when it was done.)
Like I said earlier in this thread, the home work component of this project has been where all the work lies.
Back to welding my 5th wheel hitch mount.
They have short levers, but the throw is pretty long, nearly an inch. And its not crisp either.
The problem I have is that the mass of the Meritor shift knob will move the various off the shelf levers during accelerator and/or braking. None of the various shifter type lever switches I've looked at are suitable to mount that knob on top of. I want that knob for the various buttons it has.
The Meritor shift knob actually has a 4 position rocker built into the side of it. The two center positions are continuous contact. The 2 outer positions are momentary contact. So I could use it for the up down shifting, but I am probably going to use that switch for another function.
I had that shift knob mounted in my old truck on the ZF6 with a custom shift lever. I loved it. If I can't have a ZF6 in my new truck, I'm at least going to have the shift knob I loved ! (Picture from when I was installing it, not when it was done.)
Like I said earlier in this thread, the home work component of this project has been where all the work lies.
Back to welding my 5th wheel hitch mount.
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Mark Kovalsky
Active member
The switch we used looked similar to those. As I remember it the action was fairly firm. If it were too easy to move the lever all the bumping the off road truck saw would shift the transmission.
The action on those switches is firm too. But not crisp. There is no "click" or detent feel to let the user know they have done something.
The joystick isn't firm, but its crisp.
Update
Good news.
I got the trailer hitch rails mounted.
Bad news.
I burned up my TIG torch.
I'm building the exhaust manifold from stainless steel. A local scrap metal dealer sells nice used(?) SS for $1 per pound. I bought what I needed for the manifold for $30.
The exhaust port plates are 1/2" SS flat bar. I selected that thickness because that is the thickness of the exhaust port flanging on the Cummins 6.7 manifold, that thickness should be less prone to warping while welding and less prone to flex when the manifold bolts are tightened.
The main manifold body is 2x2 3/16" tube.
The exhaust manifold will be TIG welded, because its SS.
The 5th wheel hitch mounts had 1/2" plate mild steel T joined to 3/8" plate. I stick welded the first mount. For the second mount, I thought it would be good practice to TIG them to see what it would be like to work with 1/2" material.
Long story short, by the end of the 2nd pass (at greater than 200A) the copper conductor of my TIG torch lead had melted its way out of not only the cooling jacket, but also the entire cable cover.
I have no idea why this happened and I haven't investigated yet, but I can't TIG the exhaust manifold together until I get my torch fixed.
The other thing I learned that the backside of my welds of the main tube to the flanges will oxidize because of the heat involved. Sometimes this is called sugaring.
Such welds are prone to cracking or fatigue failure.
To rectify this situation, I need to run shield gas (argon) inside the header body as I weld it.
Not a big deal, but I do need to purchase a second flow meter before I can do that.
So the exhaust manifold is on hold for a bit.
Good news.
I got the trailer hitch rails mounted.
Bad news.
I burned up my TIG torch.
I'm building the exhaust manifold from stainless steel. A local scrap metal dealer sells nice used(?) SS for $1 per pound. I bought what I needed for the manifold for $30.
The exhaust port plates are 1/2" SS flat bar. I selected that thickness because that is the thickness of the exhaust port flanging on the Cummins 6.7 manifold, that thickness should be less prone to warping while welding and less prone to flex when the manifold bolts are tightened.
The main manifold body is 2x2 3/16" tube.
The exhaust manifold will be TIG welded, because its SS.
The 5th wheel hitch mounts had 1/2" plate mild steel T joined to 3/8" plate. I stick welded the first mount. For the second mount, I thought it would be good practice to TIG them to see what it would be like to work with 1/2" material.
Long story short, by the end of the 2nd pass (at greater than 200A) the copper conductor of my TIG torch lead had melted its way out of not only the cooling jacket, but also the entire cable cover.
I have no idea why this happened and I haven't investigated yet, but I can't TIG the exhaust manifold together until I get my torch fixed.
The other thing I learned that the backside of my welds of the main tube to the flanges will oxidize because of the heat involved. Sometimes this is called sugaring.
Such welds are prone to cracking or fatigue failure.
To rectify this situation, I need to run shield gas (argon) inside the header body as I weld it.
Not a big deal, but I do need to purchase a second flow meter before I can do that.
So the exhaust manifold is on hold for a bit.
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Powerstroke Cowboy
Well-known member
Why cant you just flip the 99 exhaust manifold upside down??? Or would that place the turbo lower then what you want???
just a little thought I had..
On Edit: pretty sweet build you have going here...
just a little thought I had..
On Edit: pretty sweet build you have going here...
Good question.
The 2nd gen ('98.5 to 2002) manifolds have a turbocharger port turned down about 45 degrees between cylinders 3 and 4. If you flip it, the port is about 45 degrees up.
The HE351VE is quite a larger turbocharger for its size (60mm). The turbine housing is large because of the VGT vanes. The actuator sticks quite a ways out from the turbo itself and it seems like Holset made the compressor cover larger than what a similar 60mm turbo uses. And the VGT actuator dosen't clear the turbine in all positions.
The 2nd gen manifold has a different turbocharger port than the HE351VE. I think the 2nd gen is T2 and the HE351VE is T3i, IIRC. Double check this before quoting me.
The 2nd gen manifold is fairly wide from the head to the turbocharger port. And one needs to add an adapter into the mix to convert the manifold pattern to the turbocharger pattern.
There are 3 or 4 options for using a 2nd gen manifold.
Flipped.
If you look at the pictures of the mock engine placed in the 08 engine compartment from a few pages back, there doesn't appear to be much clearance between a 6.7 valvecover and the underside of the hood.
If one attaches an HE351VE to a flipped 2nd gen manifold, it protrudes about 4 inches (IIRC) above the modified 6.7 valvecover. It would almost surely touch the hood.
It might be possible to make this height work, but I think it would be difficult.
Downward
If one places the HE351VE on the 2nd gen manifold in its stock orientation, the turbocharger is both far out from the engine and low. The engine mount is almost directly below the 3rd and 4th cylinders and space here is at a premium.
The stock 6.7 manifold exists between cylinders 4 and 5, one fully cylinder back. And the compressor intake on the HE351 just clears the back edge of the engine mount. The 2nd gen manifold places it right in the way.
Having the HE351VE so far back and low also leaves very little space between the HE351 and the S475 for various piping, specifically getting a 5 inch air intake into the S475.
Combinations
Because one has to make up an adapter to go between the HE351 and the 2nd gen manifold, one isn't stuck with the stock 2nd gen manifold output orientation. However, any adapter design other than straight to straight puts the turbocharger further up where it runs into the hood, further down, where it runs into the engine mount or further out, where it probably starts to run into the front suspension or HVAC stuff.
Other Issues.
The other issue with the 2nd gen manifold is that even if it did work, it will stuff the turbo just under the engine cowl, effectively blocking all access behind it. I dislike that.
The other thing to remember is that the 6R140 bellhousing not only forces the starter onto the passenger side, it puts it much higher than any other transmission I've seen. Most put the start at about the oil pan line. The 6R140 puts it quite a bit above that.
The 6R140 forces the starter position because it has a slight cutout for the nose of the starter. One would be forced to cut part of the 6R140 bellhousing to move the starter to another location. I did that with my 5.9 CR /ZF6 swap to get(keep) the starter on the driver's side (like Dodge has it) but I don't want to do that with my 6R140.
My custom manifold is going to put the HE351 as high up, as far forward and as close in as possible, making the piping as simple as possible and making the engine compartment as clean and accessible as possible.
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genuineford
New member
We use to use outlets kinda like you are putting in your truck at my previous job. The ones we used were a lot smaller the only downside is they are not covered like the one you have pictured. This may help you with some room issues if needed. Here is a link to one like we had.
http://www.newark.com/qualtek-elect...lar Products&MER=PPSO_N_P_EverywhereElse_None
http://www.newark.com/qualtek-elect...lar Products&MER=PPSO_N_P_EverywhereElse_None
We'll see when its done.
I'm a bit frustrated with the progress right now, but I'll overlook that if it works well.
I thought about using those too. I don't think the depth is any different.
Do you know of any waterproof, covered connectors to put in the bed ?
genuineford
New member
A little searching came up with the following results. The first one is the best but also the most expensive. The rest of them did not have the best information that I could find. You have to click on the data sheet to get some more info on the products.
http://www.newark.com/daniel-woodhead/60w47/connector-ac-power-receptacle-15/dp/93B0590
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=68C5559&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=02M0455&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=24M5740&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
http://www.newark.com/daniel-woodhead/60w47/connector-ac-power-receptacle-15/dp/93B0590
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=68C5559&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=02M0455&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=24M5740&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
Smokyred
New member
If you could find an engine block heater plug assembly as used on an OTR truck but with a female connection you would have a good waterproof bed mount plug.
You're doing an excellent job at tackling this project mostly on your own, in such a short timeframe.
Keep up the good work, I've already given thought to a 6R140 behind my 6.4, and your project gives that viability!
Dave
You're doing an excellent job at tackling this project mostly on your own, in such a short timeframe.
Keep up the good work, I've already given thought to a 6R140 behind my 6.4, and your project gives that viability!
Dave
Thanks for the support, guys.
I've got a busy week ahead of me.
I got my TIG torch torn down. No big deal to get it working again, just need to find some hose and maybe a few parts.
I got most of the CAD stuff done. I need to hear some feedback from an expert on my plans for the flex plate before I send the transmission adapter plate drawings off to be cut.
I have a laundry list of things to do on our 5er before the weekend, which for me starts Thursday night. It was stolen last fall and damaged in the pin box area. I need to install a replacement pin box and do some inspections. I'm also installing power jacks on the back.
I'm visiting my dad on Father's day and pulling CAN Bus data from his 2011 F350, empty and while pulling his 5er. I need to update a few things on my software tools before I go.
Here are my plans going forward.
I'm waiting to pull the 6.7 apart until I get the starter and turbo placement stuff worked out and that is waiting on feedback on the flex plate plan I have. If the flex plate works out like I think it will, there is nothing more to figure out. If there is an issue with my flex plate plan, then I'll need to change a few things.
As soon as I hear about that, I'll finalize the transmission adapter drawing and send that off. Then I'll put together the exhaust manifold, leaving the HE351 mount only tacked so that I can alter it a bit once its in the truck and I can identify any clearance issues for real. Ditto for the S475 mount.
Then I'll tear apart the 6.7 and do the rods and headstuds and plugs and paint.
Then I'll bolt the engine and transmission together. I also need to test some electronics and dive into the 4x4 Control Module and see how it plays with the 6.7 transfer case. (The 6.4 transfer case is NOT a direct bolt on to the 6R140)
In the mean time, I'll be playing and testing the CAN Intercepter box (goes between the Ford ECM and the HS CAN bus), the Cummins 6.7 adapter box (goes between the HS CAN bus and the 6.7 ECM) and the 6R140 adapter box (goes between the HS CAN bus and the 6R140).
Then its time to pull the 6.4 out and see if it all works.
I'm a bit &*^%$ that all this is happening in JUNE instead of APRIL. There were some holdups with parts and info back in March that screwed things up.
Looking back, I should have handled things a bit differently.
If I can give anyone advice about doing a swap, its to allow yourself LOTS of time to gather parts and info and do as much as you can before you pull the engine from the recipient truck. I call this the homework phase of a swap.
Time just flies by when you are waiting for info or parts for some obscure piece of a swap. And it only takes a few such pieces to mess up the timeline. I'm happy my F350 hasn't been in pieces all this while.
Before anyone starts asking questions about some of the stuff that I mentioned in my list, I'll talk about it in more detail as I work on it.
I've got a busy week ahead of me.
I got my TIG torch torn down. No big deal to get it working again, just need to find some hose and maybe a few parts.
I got most of the CAD stuff done. I need to hear some feedback from an expert on my plans for the flex plate before I send the transmission adapter plate drawings off to be cut.
I have a laundry list of things to do on our 5er before the weekend, which for me starts Thursday night. It was stolen last fall and damaged in the pin box area. I need to install a replacement pin box and do some inspections. I'm also installing power jacks on the back.
I'm visiting my dad on Father's day and pulling CAN Bus data from his 2011 F350, empty and while pulling his 5er. I need to update a few things on my software tools before I go.
Here are my plans going forward.
I'm waiting to pull the 6.7 apart until I get the starter and turbo placement stuff worked out and that is waiting on feedback on the flex plate plan I have. If the flex plate works out like I think it will, there is nothing more to figure out. If there is an issue with my flex plate plan, then I'll need to change a few things.
As soon as I hear about that, I'll finalize the transmission adapter drawing and send that off. Then I'll put together the exhaust manifold, leaving the HE351 mount only tacked so that I can alter it a bit once its in the truck and I can identify any clearance issues for real. Ditto for the S475 mount.
Then I'll tear apart the 6.7 and do the rods and headstuds and plugs and paint.
Then I'll bolt the engine and transmission together. I also need to test some electronics and dive into the 4x4 Control Module and see how it plays with the 6.7 transfer case. (The 6.4 transfer case is NOT a direct bolt on to the 6R140)
In the mean time, I'll be playing and testing the CAN Intercepter box (goes between the Ford ECM and the HS CAN bus), the Cummins 6.7 adapter box (goes between the HS CAN bus and the 6.7 ECM) and the 6R140 adapter box (goes between the HS CAN bus and the 6R140).
Then its time to pull the 6.4 out and see if it all works.
I'm a bit &*^%$ that all this is happening in JUNE instead of APRIL. There were some holdups with parts and info back in March that screwed things up.
Looking back, I should have handled things a bit differently.
If I can give anyone advice about doing a swap, its to allow yourself LOTS of time to gather parts and info and do as much as you can before you pull the engine from the recipient truck. I call this the homework phase of a swap.
Time just flies by when you are waiting for info or parts for some obscure piece of a swap. And it only takes a few such pieces to mess up the timeline. I'm happy my F350 hasn't been in pieces all this while.
Before anyone starts asking questions about some of the stuff that I mentioned in my list, I'll talk about it in more detail as I work on it.
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Vader's Fury
Active member
Here is 2 pictures of the external ac plug in the back of my tacoma I use for work. It is mounted into the plastic bed liner
