are O-rings mandatory for me?

TBagAMouseTrap · Jul 10, 2015

I think making sure your heads aren't cracked is more important than orings, if you have the available coin after that then why not.

swinky · Jul 10, 2015

I thought fire rings required a groove in the block.

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borsky · Jul 10, 2015

In the article you posted, it says "in street uses there is generally only a groove machined in the head". This pertains to street usage. Most competition Fire rings have grooves machined in both the block and the head. These are the ones that is not recommended for street use. The "fire rings" you are using are somewhat of a hybrid version.(little bit of both). And yes i have Zero personal experience with fire rings. The topic of fire rings vs o-rings has been discussed on here and other forums many times and the biggest misunderstanding is what the definition of each is... This is also the case here.

The OP was asking if there was longevity issues with orings, and I replied that what he confusing the issue with issues associated with True competion fire rings. And u stepped in with your "expertise" on fire rings and claimed there was no such issue with fire rings.

And i think this could mislead the OP. So to be clear, it is not recommended to run true fire ringed setups with both grooves machined in the heads and the block in DD setups due to failures associated with heat cycling. The cheaper and most proven setup for DD's is o-rings.

Another option for possibly a little better sealing for more money is the "hybrid" version that hypermax offers, This version uses a groove in the head but relies on the ring as the actual seal, where the o-rings use the stock gaskets to seal the combustion chamber and simply provide more clamping around the chamber.

IMO o-rings are the most proven method, some like stroking6L have had good luck with the hypermax setup. but others like charlie have not. (charlie's was an experimental version)

It is also my opinion that for the backyard mechanic the orings are the more fool proof option. I'm sure there are less install related issues for obvious reasons. Also would like to add that anyone that does use o-rings themselves i would recommend a retourque after sitting overnight to let the orings settle into the gaskets. I was able to achieve a significant amount of movement in the nuts in the morning

borsky · Jul 10, 2015

swinky said:
I thought fire rings required a groove in the block.

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Exactly!

swinky · Jul 10, 2015

borsky said:
Exactly!

Glad we're on the same page here.

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strokin6L · Jul 10, 2015

swinky said:
I thought fire rings required a groove in the block.

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Jared....fire ringing can be done in different ways. Grooving just the heads, grooving just the block, or grooving both the heads and block. When used on the street...generally just the heads are grooved for the rings. When in competition use...both the heads and block are grooved. My fire rings are not a hybrid version...it is true fire ringing. I don't mean to sound like this is a pissing match, cause it's not. I totally agree, today..the best option is definitely o-ringing vs fireringing. Like I said...only reason I went with fire rings is because no one was offering o-ringing back in '06. I just mentioned my setup because my truck was a daily driver and still is somewhat, but just not many miles per week with fire rings. In the end...O-ringing is where its at.

HOOV3R · Jul 10, 2015

swinky · Jul 10, 2015

strokin6L said:
Jared....fire ringing can be done in different ways. Grooving just the heads, grooving just the block, or grooving both the heads and block. When used on the street...generally just the heads are grooved for the rings. When in competition use...both the heads and block are grooved.

So basically you have O ringed head gaskets?

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strokin6L · Jul 10, 2015

swinky said:
So basically you have O ringed head gaskets?

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No....fire ringed! My gaskets are a thick single layer graphite style gasket that doesnt have the combustion/fire ring in it like the stock MLS gasket has. Once the head gasket is placed on the block....the fire rings are then placed in the cylinder opening of the gasket on the deck surface of the block. The machined grooved cylinder head is then placed onto the rings. Once the head it placed down over the rings....the rings will obviously be seated into the grooves of the head. The big difference between o-ringing and fire ringing is where the ring is seated. In o-ringing....the ring is seated on top of the head gasket. In fire ringing....the ring is seated on or into the deck of the block. Another difference between the two is that the ring in o-ringing is tapped/pressed into the groove of the head. Where in fire ringing....the ring is placed loosely on the bare surface of the block before the cylinder head is dropped onto it.

KCTurbos · Jul 10, 2015

Fire ringing and oring heads is not determined by any type of mahcine work. Head, block, it does to matter. Both styles can go anywhere.

What defines oring vs firing is whether or not the ring is "squishing" the gastekt or taking the place of the gasket.

Orings apply more pressure to the "fire ring" area of the existing gasket.

Fire rings actually take the place of the "fire ring" area of the gasket... so it has to be removed from the existing gasket.

Orings can be stuck in the head, block, both or none. It just applies extra pressure to the needed area of the gasket. They are also usually much thinner. Metal on gasket material.

Fire rings can be stuck in the head, block, both or none. You cut out the fire ring area of the gasket and use the fire ring to seal the combustion area. Metal on Metal.

V-Ref · Jul 11, 2015

KCTurbos said:
Fire ringing and oring heads is not determined by any type of mahcine work. Head, block, it does to matter. Both styles can go anywhere.

What defines oring vs firing is whether or not the ring is "squishing" the gastekt or taking the place of the gasket.

Orings apply more pressure to the "fire ring" area of the existing gasket.

Fire rings actually take the place of the "fire ring" area of the gasket... so it has to be removed from the existing gasket.

Orings can be stuck in the head, block, both or none. It just applies extra pressure to the needed area of the gasket. They are also usually much thinner. Metal on gasket material.

Fire rings can be stuck in the head, block, both or none. You cut out the fire ring area of the gasket and use the fire ring to seal the combustion area. Metal on Metal.

Great post explaining the difference....easily misunderstood topic on these forums...sticky or bookmark worthy for the next time this question comes up

da94broncodude · Jul 13, 2015

spoke to craig at NAPD today, and he thought if i wasnt running over 60PSI of boost that ARP and Cometic gaskets with good surfaced heads should be fine..

Thoughts?

Fox hunt · Jul 13, 2015

For how much it costs to do it compared to everything else while you in that far I would do it. I wish I would have when had my studs done

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zshier17 · Jul 15, 2015

What if you decide later to go bigger on injectors and turbo... I plan on having a smaller turbo...for now. But with any other hobby, what you want now is not what you'll want in a couple years. Once you throw 225's and a s400 charger in it, you might be wondering why you never had your heads O-ringed lol

da94broncodude · Jul 28, 2015

Thanks to KCturbos for explaining the differences, that helped a lot, my biggest concern at this point is I don't want to be doing this again in 6 months, I towed my trailer again this weekend and my issue is getting worse so I need to nip this in the butt. I honestly love the power my truck makes and the turbo/Injector combo seem to work well, however like I've said before I can't know if they work well without being able to stay into it, at that point if EGTs are my only concern I have no issues with doing compounds. My next concern is fuel mileage, this last trip it was horrible, maybe 5-6mpg, is this gonna get any better? Or what can I do to make it better, what are all these guys doing that claim big power, tow and still get decent mileage (I would be happy with 10-12mpg towing). It sounds like regardless I need o rings, now to find someone local (salt lake city Utah) that knows what I'm talking about that can machine them and do the orings as shipping heavy ass heads sounds expensive

Twan · Aug 1, 2015

How big is your trailer?

5-10 depends on the size and driving.
Best way to get mileage is to slow down, 65 tops, gear the truck so at 65 your at 1900-2000 rpms and be very easy on the go peddle. Lol.