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  #11  
Old 04-30-2014, 05:32 AM
Dan V Dan V is offline
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Dan, get your Hydra back and give me the S/N!!
It's making it's trip back from a vacation on the east coast.

Send me a pm with your email addy.
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Last edited by Dan V; 04-30-2014 at 05:35 AM.
  #12  
Old 04-30-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bluedge8 View Post
I just wish I had time, money and knowledge to understand all of these different types of threads! I actually understood everything Charles said this time!! My ultimate truck is a compunded 7.3, no smoke 550-650hp all day- every day.
If charles would allow, ask him what his exact combination is and maybe tuning.

live life full throttle
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  #13  
Old 04-30-2014, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DZL JIM View Post
Charles,
You are 100% spot on with everything you have said about what 200% nozzles can be.

However...

It's posts like yours that drives me nuts dealing with customers who blindly believe everything they read online and want to jump on the 200% bandwagon feet first.

Why can't you emphasize to the average Joe how many hours you have spent live tuning your own truck?
You brought Mike O into your post, why can't you emphasize how many hours he has live tuning his own truck?

200% nozzles will be a HUGE disappointment without live tuning.
Don't lead the average 7.3 owner to think his truck will be the miracle your truck is by just swapping in 200% nozzles and doing nothing else and going about his day.

Sorry Tim, not relevant to your post, I know.
Did DynoProven tell you to test at the parameters that you did?

Anyone running a DPC421 PCM could take a handful of files I have sitting on my laptop and be doing rolling burnouts and dragging trailers all around no problem with a 200 EDM. If one truck runs crystal clear on a file and another is a smoky pile, then there's not a tuning problem, there's something wrong with the second truck.

When I put the 300/100's in my 550 it was otherwise bone stock. Stock charger, stock everything but injectors and a downpipe. A good running file from my red truck ran identical in the 550. Same cache code, same injector, same result.

If the file's good, it's good.

If not, then it's bad, and with anything 200 and up on nozzle, it's usually real bad. With a 4/4, the difference between super clean and super responsive vs a total miserable failure can be as little as 0.2ms either way. You have to keep ICP out in front of pw. But since both are determined by MFD, which is your right foot, if the relationship between pw, ICP and MFD errs in the favor of pw as you're coming up on the pedal, then you can drive all day long and never get "on top" of the pw. Truck smokes, has low power, won't lug, drops on shifts, won't even touch a single charger, so on and so forth. And most times pulling just a few fractions of pw as the MFD is climbing will get the ICP out ahead and pull a complete 180 on the engine's feel, output and smoke.

I tried to say it before, and I'll try again, if it's off a little, a bigger nozzle will tell on you. And it will be BAD. Like real, real, bad to drive. Basically ruin the truck. No doubt. And that is exactly what is happening to anyone who ever says they don't like a 200 EDM. Because if a 200 is dialed, nobody on planet earth wouldn't love the way it drives.

And for seat time on a new setup, yes. It takes some time. I would say after I had the 200's dialed, from there to the 300's took a couple days worth of pulling over every now and then during the course of normal daily driving and making some ICP/pw/timing changes until the pedal tip-in was good, pedal was linear, and the ICP to PW relationship was good with good timing.

For more complicated needs it takes more time. I probably have 100 files for the 550, each one being a small change, continually working toward a goal of full power with an unbreakable 1250 degree EGT ceiling. Some of that was that half the files were on a stock charger, then the rest at a higher output with the 38R still under the 1250 degree ceiling at all operating points, even dragged all the way down to stall flat to the floor.

I'll say again, if I didn't already have a file for a given setup, and wouldn't be able to sit in the truck for a half-day and make sure it was crisp, then I wouldn't go over a 200. I fail to see how professional tuners can't have canned programs for a 200 written for basically any practical setup at this point. If you write the file for a single charger on a stock pump, you'll be good to go down the road clean and clear on any other setup that isn't having it's own issues, which won't run right on any injector anyway. Although they will almost always run worse on a faster injector as it highlights the errors.

What is a 200? Like a 0.011? In 2014 surely we can get past mainstreaming tuning for a little guy like that.

In the grand scheme, the biggest nozzles available are small.
  #14  
Old 04-30-2014, 07:19 AM
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I will say that if i didn't have Minotaur i wouldn't have 200%'s in my truck. I have a ton of time in my tunes, and its still not perfect. But i also have a piss poor set-up. I run a 15* pump, stock turbo, non-intercooled, and tow anywhere from 8-16k on a daily basis. I have no experience with anybody elses tunes on these though. I got the 200%'s, ran tunes for stage 2's for a while, and then bought Minotaur.
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  #15  
Old 04-30-2014, 07:41 AM
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I'll put in my 2 cents. 30% nozzles work for 95% of guys wanting new injectors.. In the end we really need to think. How many people buy injectors and go on a forum? Most guys are construction workers, retired people towing their rvs and just want alittle extra power, etc.


I bought a set of used injectors 175/30% from swamps. Still running the stock turbo with a ported housing. I was able to clock off 14.73 in the quarter. I weight 8600lbs.. The dually tows almost everyday. I had more power up the hills, lower EGT's than stock injectors, and just flat out runs GOOD.


If I wasn't a diesel enthusiast, 30% nozzles would've made me the happiest guy on earth. But like most of you, we always think of," it runs good, but can I make it better"

The dually will be staying with what it has, other than a 38r. It's the tow rig and want it reliable, no need for studs, valve springs, push rods, etc. I have My play truck to try stuff.

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  #16  
Old 04-30-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincolnlocker View Post
If charles would allow, ask him what his exact combination is and maybe tuning.

live life full throttle

If I was closer to doing that setup I would ask, but right now it's but a dream


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D3leted 6.0's are the best. D3lete them and replace with a Cummings.
  #17  
Old 04-30-2014, 10:45 AM
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lincolnlocker lincolnlocker is offline
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Originally Posted by bluedge8 View Post
If I was closer to doing that setup I would ask, but right now it's but a dream


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We all have those bud!

live life full throttle
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  #18  
Old 04-30-2014, 10:48 AM
DZL JIM DZL JIM is offline
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Charles,
If you can comment in any way OTHER than what you have done LIVE tuning your own trucks, that would be helpful to those interested in anything larger than a 100% nozzle.
No point in repeating yourself. You have proved what LIVE tuning will do, whether it was 10 years ago or yesterday. And it doesn't matter if you have 300 good files or 1. Those are all for YOUR truck that you LIVE tuned.

If you don't believe me then try talking with hundreds of customers a year with tuning issues that did not get live tuning, for even basic injector upgrades.

I have seen first hand 3 stockish OBS trucks with Stage-1 injectors all run the exact same chip. As in take the chip out of one truck and put it in the other. ALL 3 trucks exactly identical in every way and every upgrade. Yet all 3 trucks run completely different. 1 runs good, 1 not so good, and one some good and some bad.

Now imagine trying to do that with a bigger injector with a bigger nozzle.

I had Bill live tune my truck years ago. The difference then was amazing vs the 'stock' Stage-3 file I was running up until the seat-time session. Stage-3's have been around for how many decades now, you'd think it'd be easy to get good tunes for those, right?

Every truck is different....
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  #19  
Old 04-30-2014, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DZL JIM View Post
Charles,
If you can comment in any way OTHER than what you have done LIVE tuning your own trucks, that would be helpful to those interested in anything larger than a 100% nozzle.
No point in repeating yourself. You have proved what LIVE tuning will do, whether it was 10 years ago or yesterday. And it doesn't matter if you have 300 good files or 1. Those are all for YOUR truck that you LIVE tuned.

If you don't believe me then try talking with hundreds of customers a year with tuning issues that did not get live tuning, for even basic injector upgrades.

I have seen first hand 3 stockish OBS trucks with Stage-1 injectors all run the exact same chip. As in take the chip out of one truck and put it in the other. ALL 3 trucks exactly identical in every way and every upgrade. Yet all 3 trucks run completely different. 1 runs good, 1 not so good, and one some good and some bad.

Now imagine trying to do that with a bigger injector with a bigger nozzle.

I had Bill live tune my truck years ago. The difference then was amazing vs the 'stock' Stage-3 file I was running up until the seat-time session. Stage-3's have been around for how many decades now, you'd think it'd be easy to get good tunes for those, right?

Every truck is different....

Since I don't send programs out on the wire I can't say in mass and I don't pretend to know about that, nor do I want to. I just know the only two trucks I've ever tuned worked identically. If I had wanted the 550 to run like the red truck nothing at all was required, it was spot on identical.

Most people's maps look like a bomb exploded and most of mine look like a granite table top, so maybe consistency is in the simplicity.

If you put the same injectors in 3 different 5.9's and went around bolting the same pump on all three, would we expect them to run dramatically different from one another? Maybe people need to pump the brakes on all the bs compensation tables and crap. Since basically all the sensors are nullified to a large degree in my programs I could see that cutting out the bs that comes along with all that. I try to be as "mechanical" as I can be in the tuning. Think P7100 with an aneroid valve with the addition of dynamic timing.

I bet the bazillion temperature, altitude and other bs trims are the reason for variability. Turn it all off and you might find out that the hardware was ready to rock the whole time.

You may find truck 2 had a bs Baro value, and truck 3 had a bs EOT value from the sensors or similar. I say turn it all off. Nobody needs that crap.

Last edited by Charles; 04-30-2014 at 11:18 AM.
  #20  
Old 04-30-2014, 12:12 PM
DZL JIM DZL JIM is offline
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Charles,
Good post.
Thanks.
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