OBS - V.G.T. Holset turbo install

NorcalOBS

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Hey all, I have a 95 f250 I bought off a buddy a few years back and I have started really working at getting this truck all fixed up. Just finished installing a Dana 60 and sd springs. Did gauges, a php hydra, dp, and 160/30 injectors. I am almost done with my e fuel setup(what can be done off the truck). Now I am collecting materials for an intercooler and turbo upgrade when I get under the hood for the rest of the efuel install.

I am starting this thread mainly to journal my experience trying see if I can get this turbo(holset he351ve) running on my truck. I want to see if I can harness the drivability of a VGT in my OBS. Quite a few guys with older cummins have been able to get these working quite well without a computerized controller. I will post up what I figure out along the way

Also I could really use some help from anyone out there that's is good with turbo sizing. I am in need of some input from those more knowledgeable than I when it comes to turbo sizing/efficiency. The goal for this truck is a
300+ rwhp meant to run efficient, tow heavy(~15k) with low egt and no smoke. I also want it to drive nice around town and have much better low end response than what I am experiencing now. I have studied the hx40 compressor map for this turbo and I think this compressor should flow plenty for my use. That is, I think. If anyone could confirm this I would appreciate it very much. I have been pouring over info and equations on turbos and engines but am not sure where my HP target fits into everything. The only formulas I have found just deal with total mass of air going through the motor for a given displacement at a given absolute pressure minus ve. Anyways, I am pretty sure I am getting a grasp on this stuff but cant find a formula that tells me how much boost I need to meet my HP goals........ Anyways, I am sure there are plenty of 7.3 gurus that can just look at this turbo map for 2 seconds and tell me if it will get me to my power goals and be running in its most efficient islands.



Now I know many are just going to want to tell me about my t4 options and the d66. I know plenty about all of those choices but for me the fab work involved in getting any turbo out there mounted and plumbed is not an issue for me. I am a skilled welder/fabricator and pipe fitter. I was going to get a 38r and install it but it is almost as much work/parts/fabrication to put on an obs as any other turbo.
I want to do something custom with all of my piping no matter what, I like building things myself and take great pride in what I build. Also I do 99% of my non-tow driving down low in the rpms so I want this truck to run much better down there.
Any input on the remainder of this build would be very much appreciated, especially input in regard to how well this charger will feed my engine at my power goals. I am not too concerned about the amount of hard work will go into getting the thing installed. Just if it will breath right. I have a call into my programmer to ask about programming but can't expect him to hold my hand with everything else.

Thank you in advance,
Noah

P.S. Hopefully as I go some useful info to others will accumulate in this thread. I know that I would not have been successful with many past projects without web forums. Since there is almost no info on the web for the holset ve series of turbos being adapted to fords, I figure I better start giving back!
P.S.S. So I am so long winded & I will start getting some pics in here asap.
God Bless

Hx40 compressor map
http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/fil...x40-b8584m.jpg
 

neverkickn

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That charger will be way to small unless I looked at the wrong specs. You gotta remember we are working with a bit more displacement on the 7.3
 

NorcalOBS

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Ok, thank you so much for responding, I need to figure this out because there are larger compressor options I can install on this thing. The main ones being a larger wheel with a 62mm inducer and matching housing, or a 64mm set that are sold to the 6.7 Cummins market as stock turbo upgrades. I thought this thing was gonna be past its peak efficiency in my motor however I read some Cummins guys claiming well over 400hp with the hx40??? Thought I might get away with it with my lower power goals. However, I am well aware of I want low temps I need to let the air flow.
Anyways, I am having trouble getting any real specs on the bigger compressors. they are advertised as the 62mm being for 350-425hp and the 64mm being for 450-525hp
??? Whatever, I know those numbers mean nothing. I am guessing since the d66 it's the go to obs turbo I should be looking at the 64mm set but I am just making a clueless guess at this point.
 

neverkickn

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Seriously, with the injectors you mentioned you will have NO problem running cool and clean with a 38r. You also don't have to modify anything to fit one. You can buy all the parts that you need to fit one on your obs. I bet you could even find the needed parts in the classified section.

If I where you though, I would consider the h2e. It will give you more options if you decide you want to run more fuel and will be way quieter.
 

NorcalOBS

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I don't have to modify anything for the 38r just spend WAY more money, and lose out on the fun(to me) of doing something different. Also, seriously how sweet would it be to have faster spool than a 38r.
I can get a Irate t4i basic kit for not much more than a set of good up pipes. Then I may just have to modify the mount a bit to place this turbo just where I want it(The thing is huge). With the 38r I need up pipes, collector, pedestal, and possibly a manifold, then the much more expensive turbo.
For the same half of the system(uppies, mount and turbo) with the holset; the total cost is about the same as the cost of just the 38r.
Also the 38r sound is not something I am interested in.
The h2e would be double the money as well and since it is a t4i it would be an easy swap from the holset at a later time if I don't like the vgt.
Thank you for the suggestions but for now I am not giving up on the VGT. ;)
 

neverkickn

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I understand that it would be different and fun, but if you are experiencing any lag with your current setup then you have an issue that needs to be addressed. Those injectors should light a stock charger off without any noticeable delay. The only time you may have a problem is at low rpm with the tc locked and that can be addressed with a simple tuning change.

If I where you I would start by putting on an intercooler then getting the current setup running perfect as it can. I am not saying that you shouldn't do what you want with the truck, but those injectors and good tuning should be very responsive with almost no smoke or heat.
 

NorcalOBS

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No lag with the stocker, it lights plenty quick with the new injectors. Heat is my problem. Just about everyone I have spoke to has said a bigger turbo will lower my egts more than a cooler. I plan to do both.
I am looking at these:
Stock:
http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/attachments/forced-induction-159/46709d1232864570-tp38-turbo-5-3l-turbo-people-i-would-appreciate-your-opinion-tp38-compressor-map-jpg
HX40:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/files/3/4/7/2/8/hx40-b8584m.jpg

I hand plotted some of the points from the stock map onto a printout of the HX40 map and this is what I got.
http://powerstrokearmy.com/photopost/data/500/medium/tp38_over_HX40.jpg
:shrug:
 

NorcalOBS

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This is the peak island and the 60% from the hx40 map hand plotted over the 38r.
http://powerstrokearmy.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Hx40_over_38R_Large_.jpg

I am thinking I must be seeing things wrong here, cuz your telling me the hx40 is way too small and
How could the pic I just posted be right when the hx40 has 60mm inducer and the 38r has a 65mm?

Is it possible for a smaller inducer compressor to outflow a compressor with a larger inducer due to differences in trim? :shrug:
This is exactly why I am trying to figure out how to plot my power goals on the map so I know what is really what with these maps. I am not looking for 400-500hp nor do I ever make a WOT runs. I want the power and around town drivability of a new diesel truck in my OBS.
 

bruce

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An hx55 is like exactly the same as a modded h2e. 66/71/17 or 19. That's a pretty tried and trued turbo on a 7.3.
 

NorcalOBS

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bruce, thanks for taking the time to jump in, I appreciate it,.I haven't got as much input as I had hoped. I am pretty sure that both of those turbos are well oversized for my low to mid 300hp target. I thought I read somewhere that the modded h2e is for a target in the high 400s or 500+ hp range. I could be wrong but I do know most every setup I have seen with a h2e has much bigger injectors than I do.
I don't want a high power hot rod. I just want a truck with great street manners for daily driving and for it to be capable of towing a decent load. In stock form this truck might have been an impressive tower 20 years ago but by todays standard she was a real slouch before the injector upgrade.
 

NorcalOBS

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I can read and am good enough at math... but in all reality I really don't know how this data translates into to real world results.

But this is what I came up with:
HX40_2000_through_3400rpm.jpg

I am a little sketchy on some of the numbers I have been using in the formulas. I used .38 for the Brake Specific Fuel Consumtion (BSFC)
and 22 for the Air Fuel ratio
and .8 for Volumetric efficiency
For the A/F and BSFC I just robbed those numbers from the garret turbo tech diesel article and do not know how applicable they are to the 7.3. And VE is a guestimate based on other forum data I found searching around.

Comments, suggestions, input of any kind is much appreciated.
Thanks, Noah
 

NorcalOBS

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UPS man was here

well the UPS man stopped by. Wasn't packed all that great. Looks like she had a rough ride over.
20140331_184212_Large_.jpg


superHX40 7 blade:
20140331_184304_Large_.jpg


T4i mount
20140331_184325_Large_.jpg


Removing the electric controls
20140331_184710_Large_.jpg
 

neverkickn

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Noah, there are actually very few people here that can answer your questions regarding your calculations. Most here are not as technically aware as you seem to be. I would suggest you call a shop with experience in building rigs like what you are looking for.

Swamps is the first one that comes to mind. They have a solid rep and have experimented with more setups than most, if not all. I am positive that your goals can easily be met without the complication of a vgt retrofit. I am also positive of the fact that it will be cheaper if you can fab your own mount and piping.
 

NorcalOBS

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Hey neverkickn, thanks for checkin in on me. I know that this stuff is everyday biz for a good shop. However, I have done everything to this truck so far all on my own so I don't have a relationship with any shops other than my tuners(which is very limited). I also feel bad bothering a good shop with helping me if I am not spending any $ with them. I am really thinking I will wind up buying an Irate mount. So I should call them and see if someone will help put my mind to rest.
I don't think I want to try to save money building my own uppies. The cheapest set of IH up pipes or comparable ss bellowed pipes made by some of the performance shops was $400 and up. The time needed to make them wouldn't be worth it to me. I would have to source all the parts then there would be 2-3 bends per side (I don't have mandrel dies that big yet) so I would have to cut and weld all the bends in. It would probably take an entire day for me to get them done right and I would only save a couple hundred bucks. Swamps and Irate are $625 for a T4 basic mount. So for $200 more than the cost of doughnut free uppies; I get the uppies, collector, T4i flange, the plate that goes in the valley, the oil return fitting, and hardware. I actually think that for a fabricated performance part that this is a very very good value! It would probably save me 2 days of fab time. Then I can put more of my time into the piping that everyone will see. :naughty:
As far as the VGT mission goes I know I will be getting some grief for attempting this along the way but hey I am up for it. lol. I know that I can get a good running setup without VGT. Aside from having to keep an eye on my egts I would say I already have a great running truck. I have been very happy with the injectors and tuning from gearhead.
VGT is a great tech when it isn't primarily used to mess up the drive/boost ratios in order to shove exhaust back into the motor that should be leaving out the tail pipe.... I have commercial trucks and the newer ones with VGTs all have a much much power band than most of the older stuff. I am confident that I have a good design for controlling the vanes. I will post up a rough layout of how I will be controlling the VGT later this week when I get a bit more time.
Anyways, I know you think I'm nuts but follow along... Us crazies can be darn entertaining at times. :toast:
 

Powerstroke Man 6.4

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Hey neverkickn, thanks for checkin in on me. I know that this stuff is everyday biz for a good shop. However, I have done everything to this truck so far all on my own so I don't have a relationship with any shops other than my tuners(which is very limited). I also feel bad bothering a good shop with helping me if I am not spending any $ with them. I am really thinking I will wind up buying an Irate mount. So I should call them and see if someone will help put my mind to rest.
I don't think I want to try to save money building my own uppies. The cheapest set of IH up pipes or comparable ss bellowed pipes made by some of the performance shops was $400 and up. The time needed to make them wouldn't be worth it to me. I would have to source all the parts then there would be 2-3 bends per side (I don't have mandrel dies that big yet) so I would have to cut and weld all the bends in. It would probably take an entire day for me to get them done right and I would only save a couple hundred bucks. Swamps and Irate are $625 for a T4 basic mount. So for $200 more than the cost of doughnut free uppies; I get the uppies, collector, T4i flange, the plate that goes in the valley, the oil return fitting, and hardware. I actually think that for a fabricated performance part that this is a very very good value! It would probably save me 2 days of fab time. Then I can put more of my time into the piping that everyone will see. :naughty:
As far as the VGT mission goes I know I will be getting some grief for attempting this along the way but hey I am up for it. lol. I know that I can get a good running setup without VGT. Aside from having to keep an eye on my egts I would say I already have a great running truck. I have been very happy with the injectors and tuning from gearhead.
VGT is a great tech when it isn't primarily used to mess up the drive/boost ratios in order to shove exhaust back into the motor that should be leaving out the tail pipe.... I have commercial trucks and the newer ones with VGTs all have a much much power band than most of the older stuff. I am confident that I have a good design for controlling the vanes. I will post up a rough layout of how I will be controlling the VGT later this week when I get a bit more time.
Anyways, I know you think I'm nuts but follow along... Us crazies can be darn entertaining at times. :toast:


I actually want to see this done the only truck close to a 7.3 that I know of that has a VGT is that old 7.3 IDI on youtube.
 

NorcalOBS

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Well I have been busy lately but I have nailed down a few things. I figured out I was looking at the metric scale on the bottom(where the lbs/min usually is) of the flow map. The hx40 compressor is too small. It is pretty much on par with the stock tp38. So I have been lookin into three options.
1. High Tech Turbo mods the he351ve turbos to a 64mm compressor and changes the turbine wheel to a less restrictive one. I still haven't found the time to call them and inquire about how well this modded version flows and cost when sending them a working core.
2. I am trying to search around the web for a good deal on a he451v which I think would be sized just right. They are not as easy to come.
3. I am also trying to find out if the v-bands on the chra are the same size as any other holset models with v-bands to hold the compressor to the chra. The h2e compressor and the hx52 both have compressor sizes that would be better matched to the 7.3 but I cannot imagine that it could be that easy to make a hybrid. Specs on individual parts for these holsets like the compressor back plates and etc are no where on the web from what I can find. I am still trying to check into this as I saw a lot of hx30/40 hybrids on gas car forums when researching the 351.
I am going to get some sort of holset vgt on this thing and if for any reason it doesn't run how I want it should be a easy swap to a stock h2e which would be right for my setup.
I just love the way the stock turbo lights off with these injectors so I really want to see if I can pull this off and get a high flowing/cooler running turbo that spools as good or better.
 

NorcalOBS

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Sorry for the thread not getting any updates for so long. The weather here dried out and my business is getting busy so I haven't had as much time to dedicate to this as I had hoped. But I am not giving up. So the he351ve is out! It is just not big enough. I have been watching ebay and I finally found a good deal on a he451ve. UPS man should be here with it by the end of the week. Once it gets here I will be able to start figuring out the fit.

The 451 has a much bigger exhaust housing so I think it should breath enough for the 7.3. The specs on the he451ve that I bought are:
64mm/93mm on the compressor and 64mm/67mm on the turbine. Exhaust housing is 29Cm^2. I cannot find any compressor maps on these so I am just going by wheel size and hoping that this turbo will just the right size for my power goals.
So everyone who told me that the he351ve was too small (and we're right by the way), I would love to hear your opinions on the sizing of the new turbo for the 7.3

Thanks,
Noah
 

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