Non vgt thinking outside the box

Swaan

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Ok guys. Been doing a lot thinking about non vgt turbos and the pros and cons on the 6.7 platform. Basically in the end it between the vgt guys loving the instant response of the vgt and the non vgt guys loving the top end power of the fixed vane.

Answer me this. Why cant the non vgt guys have there cake and eat it too! Why have no one in the 6.7 world ever used
a wastegated s300??

All the dodge guys use .70 .80 wastegsted t3 s300 chargers .
They get great spool up of the bottom and flow great up top also. The duramax crowd is doing the same thing, even claiming better spool over the vgt!

Borg warner just recently released a T4 s300 exhaust housing in the .83 A/R. It is divided and has a gate in each voloute. They come in a 68mm and 74mm turbine.

With a housing like that there is no reason a 63mm sxe with the 68mm turbine wont drive just as good on the bottom as the 2015 up vgt and still have great top end because of the gates. Heck a 62 will support 550hp easy.

Fleece has a 62/68/.83 gated for the duramax crowd that supports 625rwhp. No reason it wont do the same on our 6.7?????


I know it's a bit more $$ but well worth the cost.

Let me know what you think???
 

doo dah

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I have S363 wastegated from Industrial. It is a Cummins based charger retrofitted for the Ford 6.7. Works alright, I got 585 at the wheels with stock 2012 fuel.
 

Swaan

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Do you know the specs on your charger.?
If its Cummins based its probley a t3 housing. I know industrial does a lot those.
Wow ! That's a lot power on 12 fuel .
 

Swaan

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As far as I can see industrial is the only company with a kit that's utilizing a WG.
Looks like there silver bullet has the 74mm turbine. I'm thinking a guy could go 68mm turbine and be fine with that T4 gated .83. Should spool like stock and flow great on the top end.

Having said that, I know there's limits. I think this is a great option for the stock fuel guys looking for as good as vgt drivability.
 
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doo dah

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Do you know the specs on your charger.?
If its Cummins based its probley a t3 housing. I know industrial does a lot those.
Wow ! That's a lot power on 12 fuel .

It is an early version; 63/68/14mm I believe. It has shortcomings on how they made it fit but overall it has been reliable for over 50k miles so far and it performs well enough that I can't pull the trigger on a new kit that is Ford specific. Industrial has expanded the lines to include 64, 66, and 68.
 

Swaan

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Do you ever find yourself under the turbo? Do you tow much with that setup? That should perform really nice with those specs .
 

doo dah

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Do you ever find yourself under the turbo? Do you tow much with that setup? That should perform really nice with those specs .

Daily driving in traffic I can get under the turbo but it is better now that I had dyno tuning done @ Truck Source Diesel. I do tow 15k+ fiver and don't find myself under the turbo much at all even in the mountains but I do not tow in the race tune and I am pretty easy on it so that contributes I'm sure. Overall the truck runs as well as I could expect and it doesn't sound like every other 6.7 with the VGT and straight pipe. :drool:
 

DieselJpower

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I just did a 369 and stroker pump and it has far exceeded my expectation for spool up with the .91 on mine. I'd guess that the .83 gated housing would still light quick with the 73 wheel ,
But especially with the smaller turbine on a 63 or 64.5

The part that killed me with aftermarket vgt's was they're no less then $2500 plus a core. While I did pay slightly more then that for the budget kit, if I want to try a different size or my charger takes a poo it's not going to be another $2500+ and another core.


And yes like doo dah said they sound heavenly
 

Swaan

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Well every shop doing the kits I've talked to want to use the bigger 74 turbine with either the 1.00 housing or the .91. They also recommended no smaller then a 63 for fear of overspending the turbo on the big end on a hot tune. Guys like mpd and H@S would have a much more rounded package utilizing the Wastegated housing. No overspeed and better performance under 2000 rpm.. Back pressure shouldn't be a problem once the gates open. Set the canister for whatever psi you like. 38-40 psi should be perfect to keep the turbo in its MAP and not over speed. .

Just food for thought, I just dont understand why these guys aren't utilizing this housing to make for a better , broader power curve like the vgt has.
 

Motostroker

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I’m running the 63 SXE on my H&S Kit. I’ll swap in a 6266 precision later on and try it. What turbos you want me to play with?


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Motostroker

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I’m fearing even with the smaller turbine even with a gate....EBP will be too much in the upper RPMs. I have all the sensors to monitor that on my edge.

I see what you are trying to say though, however non vgt will never have the best of all worlds

I’ve spent countless tuning revisions and now I’m really happy with my non vgt setup. Mainly transmission tuning and lockup control to have the turbo not fall under itself.


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Swaan

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I think a 62 with the 68 turbine and that .83 gated housing will have way better power curve then what everybody is offering right now. .

Depending on how much fuel you throw at it I'm sure those gates in that housing would keep ebp in check....

I'm thinking this would really help the guy who tows lots, is on stock fuel and wants to retain near stock like driving charteristics .

Now then if your running duel pumps and aiming for big HP then keep going with the bigger chargers.
 

Motostroker

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I think a 62 with the 68 turbine and that .83 gated housing will have way better power curve then what everybody is offering right now. .

Depending on how much fuel you throw at it I'm sure those gates in that housing would keep ebp in check....

I'm thinking this would really help the guy who tows lots, is on stock fuel and wants to retain near stock like driving charteristics .

Now then if your running duel pumps and aiming for big HP then keep going with the bigger chargers.



I considered going that small but plans eventually are a 476 SXE feeding my 363. Ill have the H&S gate push the 476 more. I’m not really going after all out power. I tow all the time and I love a smooth linear type of power. I’ll run these compound on my stock fuel/stock bottom end and see how it does with say a 100 horse tune.

If I wasn’t running compounds I would for sure go pretty small on a charger like your saying. Some people like drive ability over power.

If I want to go fast I got a KTM 1290 Superduke to go fast on



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I find the non-vgt really not horribly bad for lag. I had to slightly change my driving style but it was minor. I find you either go 25% or so throttle or heavy foot it. In between takes some time to spool and can be a smoke show pretty quickly. Makes you look like an @$$ when city driving. I installed a rudy's intake and find spool up quicker and bottom end smoke reduced some. Truck does a fair bit of city driving and I tow a couple times a year and will do more when I graduate. When towing heavy I lock it out of 6th and put it into tow haul, keeps you in the torque band and less smoking.
 

Motostroker

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I find the non-vgt really not horribly bad for lag. I had to slightly change my driving style but it was minor. I find you either go 25% or so throttle or heavy foot it. In between takes some time to spool and can be a smoke show pretty quickly. Makes you look like an @$$ when city driving. I installed a rudy's intake and find spool up quicker and bottom end smoke reduced some. Truck does a fair bit of city driving and I tow a couple times a year and will do more when I graduate. When towing heavy I lock it out of 6th and put it into tow haul, keeps you in the torque band and less smoking.



I had to play with my tuning a good bit. I no longer shift into 6th until 61-62 now (in tow haul)

And when I’m not in tow haul, it no longer locks the converter in 3-4 gear at lower speed. Prevents the charger from falling on its face. I’ve spent a lot time because my mom and my girlfriend drive my truck. When they do I don’t feel like explaining how to “drive it”

They can drive around with smoking out the town.

I like the ********** non-vgt the most as of now. 2-3 tweaks and Eric has me spot on with my type of driving.








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Swaan

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I'm not into countless tune revisions altering the shift strategy to mask a bad turbo design. A little tweak hear and there is fine but when your locking out compleat gears the kit is subpar in my opinion.

The only kit out there right now that seems to have zero drivability issues is the ATS aroura 3000.
I talked to these guys and it is supposed to spool as fast or faster then a 11-14 truck and be good for 500hp.
It's a 58mm turbo with a .85 T3 housing. They wouldn't divulge the turbine size .

I still think a 62/68/.83 gated be a great little turbo.

If I was going to go with a non vgt , it would have to perform dam good as my wife pulls her horse trailer with it and the last thing I need is her saying I wreaked our $60,000 truck . Lol
 
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Motostroker

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I'm not into countless tune revisions altering the shift strategy to mask a bad turbo design. A little tweak hear and there is fine but when your locking out compleat gears the kit is subpar in my opinion.

The only kit out there right now that seems to have zero drivability issues is the ATS aroura 3000.
I talked to these guys and it is supposed to spool as fast or faster then a 11-14 truck and be good for 500hp.
It's a 58mm turbo with a .85 T3 housing. They wouldn't divulge the turbine size .

I still think a 62/68/.83 gated be a great little turbo.

If I was going to go with a non vgt , it would have to perform dam good as my wife pulls her horse trailer with it and the last thing I need is her saying I wreaked our $60,000 truck . Lol



I hope a 58mm kit lights instantly for sure. They prob went that small because they deal with altitude out there. I’d like to drive their kit. I’ve driven MPD, and H&S

I know the MPD kit I had did OK out in Colorado when I went thru going to Moab. I was towing 18K. It was hard getting the load going at a red light.

VGT will always outshine when it comes to altitude though.

Just curious, how many non VGT 6.7s have you driven? Which kits?


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Swaan

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I'll be honest. I havent actually driven a non vgt 6.7. I've done lots of testing of non vgt on my previous 6.0 . It was hell and I know exaclly how they behave when not sized right. That truck currently has a 62/68/.83 with a irate divided uppipes and drives as good as the powermax that came off it. Drives really really well.
I also did lots of testing of various borg turbos on my 7.3 when I had that.

My current truck now is a 16 6.7 and would like to put a non vgt on it because I really do like the liner smooth power they provide plus you can instantly tell the engine has less backpressure cuz of how free it runs... just love it.

But after doing lots and lots reading and talking to other people , I'm just not convinced they have the kits nailed down yet for the towing crowd. I'd just hate to spend 4g and be disapointed with the performance.

I do agree though, you will never get the stock vgt performance in a fixed vane. But you should get close or at least the same as a big vgt..
 

DieselJpower

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Not sure how much it's helping me, but I ceramic coated the up pipes and exhaust housing as well as wrapped the pipes and have a turbo blanket. I know for sure the IC pipe kit helps alot. I'd bet I could've went with a 467 and still had a good experience.

Like moto said, you just need to have the shift points go out a little further in non wot situations. Mine needs this treatment still, and once that's done I see no reason I couldn't tow cool and clean even with this 69.

Swaan I think you'd be absolutely fine with that 62/68/.83 like you're saying. Probably a perfect stock replacement on a tow rig. Mpd already offers that charger with the .91 housing as one of its "quick spool for guys not looking to make big power gains"

I saw yesterday that they're soon to have an option for precision chargers with their kits so that's another route to consider. I could only imagine how nice these trucks would drive with a bb charger when they can do this well with a journal bearing.
 

sootie

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I find the non-vgt really not horribly bad for lag. I had to slightly change my driving style but it was minor. I find you either go 25% or so throttle or heavy foot it. In between takes some time to spool and can be a smoke show pretty quickly. Makes you look like an @$$ when city driving. I installed a rudy's intake and find spool up quicker and bottom end smoke reduced some. Truck does a fair bit of city driving and I tow a couple times a year and will do more when I graduate. When towing heavy I lock it out of 6th and put it into tow haul, keeps you in the torque band and less smoking.
Don't forget that you aren't at high altitude, and your landscape is so flat you can see yesterday if you look in your rear view...
 

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