Supercharged 7.3

superpsd

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superpsd

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In that video the blower is just free spinning. I was just seeing how loud the blower will be under 2k where the motor spends most of the time. I have a 6.0 IC to install yet and get some 3" pipe bent for the charge tubing. A 136" belt is also on the way to include the relocated alternator.
 

Hotrodtractor

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So how far have you overdriven the supercharger to make it effective in the operational RPM range?

Just for argument sake - this is pretty close to the factory map for the turbo on the 7.3:

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97f350stroker

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Stock fuel too? What kind of gains are you expecting from this? I have limited knowledge on superchargers so excuse me if I come uneducated lol.

On edit: HRT is here ill just sit back and read please ignore my post lol
 

superpsd

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I don't need huge gains. My aim was smokeless or near smokeless power. The truck is a zf5 truck with basic mods. I plan to pulley the charger to make 1-2 psi at idle and 10 ish lbs max into the turbo. I may need a bypass we will see. I plan to stay with the stock sticks for now but possibly reburn the chip for custom tunes as it has canned tunes currently. I don't like the turbo lag on a stick truck trying to get thru traffic and turning up the chip settings likes to smoke out the intersections before the turbo is pushing.
 

97BambiBasherPSD

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Huh sounds like you could have just gotten a smaller exhaust housing to help that out. And I'd be curious to see what this setup could do with a set of bigger sticks. Set the blower to 15-20psi and let the turbo go to 35psi and it would be an interesting combo.


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superpsd

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Well I could have but I am a sucker for the sound and hopefully the feel of a positive displacement blown diesel. I wanted to go a different route. I don't think I would want to spin this blower to produce much past 10 lbs anything more usually means a lot more heat and as the load on the blower increases the parasitic losses increase which will Rob power and fuel economy. I may lose a little economy and I am ok with that I usually average 18-19 currently. Ordered material for coupling. Going to work on the blower discharge outlet tomorrow. My injectors days are numbered and will likely be upgraded along with oil.
 

dentexpowerstroke

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Huh sounds like you could have just gotten a smaller exhaust housing to help that out. And I'd be curious to see what this setup could do with a set of bigger sticks. Set the blower to 15-20psi and let the turbo go to 35psi and it would be an interesting combo.


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Sounds to me like you just said to push both the turbo and the blower past their safe zone. I see that as causing a lot more of a downside than making any gains.
 

97BambiBasherPSD

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Well the supercharger I wasnt too sure of it's limits but the turbo is fine at 35psi. What's the supercharger limits?


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superpsd

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Well this M112 blower is the factory GT500 blower. One guy on another forum who put this same blower on a 4BT made 30 psi from the blower which of course would be way beyond the efficiency range of the blower. You can spin a blower faster of course to make a few more lbs of boost but the trade off will be higher discharge temps and a larger parasitic loss. This of course is not that great for egts and economy. If i wanted more from the blower I would pony up the dough for a drop in GT500 replacement like an Eaton TVS or a $$$$Whipple$$$$. A few of the Cummins guys have ran Whipple and Gale banks is running a Whipple only on their 1500 hp duramax.

Here is a page about the difference between a Gen 5 M112 and the new TVS
http://www.engine-expo.com/forum_2009/pdfs/day1/11_robert_walling.pdf
 

Charles

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What's the point of the turbo? Just to pull a little PR off the blower as you accelerate? Because with the blower in front the blower boost will drop like a rock as you start to spool the turbo and come on power. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it went neutral, or vacuum interstage.

Why not go blower after turbo? Then you could have the boost from the blower and run a much larger turbo. Overheat the blower seals?

As it stands, it doesn't make sense to me. It will puff a little off idle then become a straw for the turbo to suck through. Put a boost/vac gauge between blower and turbo, I'd like to see what happens.
 

Pwnm30rdi3

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What's the point of the turbo? Just to pull a little PR off the blower as you accelerate? Because with the blower in front the blower boost will drop like a rock as you start to spool the turbo and come on power. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it went neutral, or vacuum interstage.

Why not go blower after turbo? Then you could have the boost from the blower and run a much larger turbo. Overheat the blower seals?

As it stands, it doesn't make sense to me. It will puff a little off idle then become a straw for the turbo to suck through. Put a boost/vac gauge between blower and turbo, I'd like to see what happens.

I was thinking the same thing. I would have put the blower after the turbo.
 

superpsd

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Well several diesel setups have been done this way. There was even an article about supercharging diesels and the blower feeding the turbo has been told the best way to go. The reasons are positive displacement blowers do not really like to be fed pressurized air. The rotors can flex but this is usually not until higher pressure ratios. The second is as the pressure increases on the outlet of the blower it takes more and more hp to turn the blower "parasitic drag" this drag reduces the gain and fuel economy. If the turbo is after the blower the discharge side of the blower the pressure will of course be lower freeing up hp and economy. If the blower is a restriction in the higher range which I doubt will happen there are options. A bypass valve is one, spinning the blower faster is two and a better option is to upgrade to a larger displacement blower to increase cfm at lower blower speeds keeping air temps in check.
 

2000wa250

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This makes no sense to me. I'm with Charles, blower after turbo makes more sense. I get the idea of parasitic drag, but from a physics perspective to me that seems irrevelant if it is post turbo. Parasitic drag is when the ratio between inlet and outlet is high enough that its making the blower work harder (air pressure against the outlet side). If the turbo was feeding the blower, wouldn't the force (from turbo boost) acting on the intake side of the blower negate the parasitic loss from back pressure on the output side? To me it seems like the way to do it would be intake > turbo > blower > intercooler > stock plenums or whatever you put in their place. Would have the instant spool up on the low end from the blower, and would pick up a bit more top end as the turbo lights.

I see it like this....how is say 10psi on the inlet side going to cause parasitic loss? The outlet side would be at 10psi as well if the blower was making 0 psi....

To me that seems to be equal pressures between inlet and outlet, which is the same as a blower operating by itself... from a ratio perspective at least.
If I'm wrong about how parasitic loss effects blowers then please correct me, but I would be inclined to look at it as the same as boost vs. Back pressure in a turbo....

Granted turbos do not suffer from parasitic loss, but performance surely suffers if pushed out of its map aka the ratio between boost and backpressure becomes too high where you approach the point of diminishing gains.

Pressure is pressure right? Even at atmosphere there is pressure, the idea is that it is equal on both sides. A blower by itself has parasitic loss because the pressure on the outlet side is high enough vs atmosphere that the blower requires more energy to turn due to the increased resistance of that pressure trying to release backwards through the blower....

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Hotrodtractor

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We know several setups have been done this way. We have seen and been around these setups before. I'm sure the article you read was probably one of the Procharger setups - it was heavily discussed at the time that the Procharger would not actually take the increase air temp from the turbo due to the compressor design. Of course the rotors can flex under high pressure ratios - but if its fed with a turbo with a pressure ratio like you are currently discussing the delta pressure across the rotors from the inlet pressure to the outlet pressure isn't any different then you are talking about, meaning you won't get that dreaded flex.

Charles point about possibly even seeing a vacuum during operation is exactly what I was eluding to in my earlier post.
 

2000wa250

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Thank you HRT, you just said what I said in way less words.

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superpsd

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Well I highly doubt the turbo will pull vacuum as a 122 Cubic inch blower spinning thousands of rpms will be pushing air into its inlet. If that were to occur like i said there is several options. There has been several Cummins setups with the blower feeding the turbo and they worked just fine. Here is one of those examples a F150 with a 12V M112 feeding a s475.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePI6AsJkLJ4
Oh and a whipple over a s480 on a 24V....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmBeBQD7fys
 
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