ja_cain
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You and gwunter need to get together sometime. You guys would be a killer combo.
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Detuning large injector nozzles - How to pick injector size for upgrades!
- Thread starter Chatham036
- Start date
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Just want to say thanks for the thought provoking info and expertise. It will interesting to see how long it takes for it to get derailed or the banter starts?
1 question: Is it possible to get a 17 degree swash plate installed into my 15, but using all of MY core parts? I.e. my plungers in my pump's respective bores and such. Yes, I understand it would be contingent if my pump's internals are in spec and possibly a couple of pages of other contingencies? For now, let’s assume they are.
I ask this because I ran across this statement when researching HPOPs and agree. "Unfortunately, I fear that the quality & output of these "moded" pumps are at the mercy of the core from which they are produced." golpher
1 question: Is it possible to get a 17 degree swash plate installed into my 15, but using all of MY core parts? I.e. my plungers in my pump's respective bores and such. Yes, I understand it would be contingent if my pump's internals are in spec and possibly a couple of pages of other contingencies? For now, let’s assume they are.
I ask this because I ran across this statement when researching HPOPs and agree. "Unfortunately, I fear that the quality & output of these "moded" pumps are at the mercy of the core from which they are produced." golpher
Very good read. Thanks Jay... I wish the 6.0 section had this much knowledge LOL... Basically the same theory/issue except for there is no PW map for us 6.0 guys (unless you use ficm tuning).
Something to add about "just pulling fuel" or "detuning" larger nozzles to run like stock. You don't always want to dump the fuel as fast as possible. At a certain point you can dump the fuel "too fast" which will just make a lot of noise. With a bigger nozzle the only way to pull fuel is to pull ICP or PW... if you pull ICP then you will lose atmoization. If you pull too much PW then you are dumping the fuel too fast. Think of it like pedaling a bike. When the pedal is facing straight up, if you bang down as hard as you can then you will just break your leg. You need to catch the pedal "past TDC". Just like jay said... you will get more torque on the way down while pedaling. Ther is an "optimum" window when you need to be applying your downward force.
So if you pull too much ICP then you end up with poor atmoization. If you pull too much PW then you miss the optimum window to dump the fuel. At higher RPMS the larger nozzles will have no issues because the motor is spinning faster. At some point as the rpms go up the larger nozzles are going to "outperform" a smaller nozzle.
It is a trade off... smaller nozzles will perform better down low in the rpm band and lower fueling, at the sacrifice of top end performance. Larger nozzles sacrific performance down low at low rpms and lower fueling, but will perform much better in the higher rpms.
On another note... I think I experience the same issues that Jay does (and probably many other vendors). Some people are more picky with their trucks, tuning, towing, turbos, etc... I am sure you guys that are "towing just fine" with 250/200 and s369 are not pulling 15,000 - 20,000lbs up at 1800rpms in OD with 35" and 1100 egts. In fact I KNOW YOU ARE NOT... but when you tell everyone that you tow just fine with no issues, guess what happens. Some poor sap ends up with the same setup as you and HATES IT. He then will procedd to try and make his tuner, injector builder, and turbo builder try and fix his problem... all because he read on the interweb that guys with this same setup are towing with no issues.
I would put money on the fact that you can tow with just about any setup if the truck is in good shape and you are not just running crap parts... but I bet you have to keep your rpms up a little more once you start going really big with the turbo/injectors.
Like in the 6.0 world when you got that 1 guys that "tows great" with an s468 and 250/100 injectors (that is pretty big in the 6.0 world). He usually forgets to tell guys that he cant even use OD, can't go over 60mph and has to keep the converter unlocked the whole time or else EGTs go crazy.
One of our biggest issue with most customers is "unrealistic expectaions" because they read something on the internet... Hope that makes sense
Something to add about "just pulling fuel" or "detuning" larger nozzles to run like stock. You don't always want to dump the fuel as fast as possible. At a certain point you can dump the fuel "too fast" which will just make a lot of noise. With a bigger nozzle the only way to pull fuel is to pull ICP or PW... if you pull ICP then you will lose atmoization. If you pull too much PW then you are dumping the fuel too fast. Think of it like pedaling a bike. When the pedal is facing straight up, if you bang down as hard as you can then you will just break your leg. You need to catch the pedal "past TDC". Just like jay said... you will get more torque on the way down while pedaling. Ther is an "optimum" window when you need to be applying your downward force.
So if you pull too much ICP then you end up with poor atmoization. If you pull too much PW then you miss the optimum window to dump the fuel. At higher RPMS the larger nozzles will have no issues because the motor is spinning faster. At some point as the rpms go up the larger nozzles are going to "outperform" a smaller nozzle.
It is a trade off... smaller nozzles will perform better down low in the rpm band and lower fueling, at the sacrifice of top end performance. Larger nozzles sacrific performance down low at low rpms and lower fueling, but will perform much better in the higher rpms.
On another note... I think I experience the same issues that Jay does (and probably many other vendors). Some people are more picky with their trucks, tuning, towing, turbos, etc... I am sure you guys that are "towing just fine" with 250/200 and s369 are not pulling 15,000 - 20,000lbs up at 1800rpms in OD with 35" and 1100 egts. In fact I KNOW YOU ARE NOT... but when you tell everyone that you tow just fine with no issues, guess what happens. Some poor sap ends up with the same setup as you and HATES IT. He then will procedd to try and make his tuner, injector builder, and turbo builder try and fix his problem... all because he read on the interweb that guys with this same setup are towing with no issues.
I would put money on the fact that you can tow with just about any setup if the truck is in good shape and you are not just running crap parts... but I bet you have to keep your rpms up a little more once you start going really big with the turbo/injectors.
Like in the 6.0 world when you got that 1 guys that "tows great" with an s468 and 250/100 injectors (that is pretty big in the 6.0 world). He usually forgets to tell guys that he cant even use OD, can't go over 60mph and has to keep the converter unlocked the whole time or else EGTs go crazy.
One of our biggest issue with most customers is "unrealistic expectaions" because they read something on the internet... Hope that makes sense
The Brad
New member
Is it possible to retard SOI at lower rpm so you can keep the atomization high with out spiking cylinder pressure?
I don't know shti about 6l tuning. I tried talking in a thread about certain stuff. And people ignored my questions either out of ignorance or arrogance. Thats part of the reason for tining issues. We had the same problem 5 years ago and injectors that were "unusable" then are in peoples daily drivers now. And I don't say "that it tows just fine" if it doesnt. Ive got an unusual setup according to people but ive said it 100 times, my setup isnt unusual if you use it. People run gt4094 and gt42 turbos with 250-400 cc injectors with 200-400% nozzles with 200 being more common. Alot of those guys have to lockout od on a small incline as egts creep up fast. But they shouldnt. That charger is fantastic above 2k rpms. Who in the hell drives around in that scenario? I guess if you have 4.10 gears and 245 tires it probably is singing a bit in od for you. Anybody eith a 4wd and 33s or 35s is going to be under the charger towing. You'd have to run 75 to be coming up on boil with that charger. And Im sure some do. I have a 38r because i can pull fuel for when the truck is working and it'll make boost when i want it. And outside of that, turning up the fuel the turbo will do well up until 36psi at which point it seems like tou start making heat. But you're doing 100 when that occurs. Its a setup optimized for street use. Not dyno numbers.
Now the sxe line of bw turbos seem to have more lb/min and better turbine design for less bp but im reluctant to upgrade for towing purposes when thats alreadyfine and dandy. Its pretty tough to leave something that works to go to something that is supposed to work.
I think once someone finds a way to tune the pw through the fickum it'll be a game changer. And i mean not what php and whoever is already doing. But rather a dynamic way to tailor pw and icp. The relation which determines drivability and cleanliness of tune. And who knows, that may neeeever happen.
Last edited:
engine warmed up no haze 200% nozzles
https://youtu.be/Dts2Dh_3yHg
https://youtu.be/Dts2Dh_3yHg
ja_cain
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This is an excellent question. Timing is rarely talked about in these threads and in my mind should have an impact on the smoothness of the motor at lower rpm's. I'm wondering how this effects spool up and overall boost at lower rpm's. I've read where retarding the ignition on a gas engine gives more drive pressure for the turbo to keep it spooled, but reduces overall torque in these areas. I wonder if this is true on a diesel.
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My old truck had a 38R and not a s369. So not quite a direct comparison.
However, with the 38R and 250/200's, yes I could tow extremely heavy, at altitude, without EGT issues. And, up until the last year or so of owning the truck, it had a 6" lift and 35"+ tires. Heaviest load it towed was 25K lbs, and that was weighed on a scale so it's not just throwing out a random number.
That said, I've also always given the following caveat to anyone who wants to try the same: tuning 250/200's to run like that was a huge pain in the a$$. It took a lot of time and effort, trial and error, to get the truck to respond the way I wanted it.
So yes it can be done, no it cannot be done easily.
PHP can and does tune the FICM... but most of the info is top secret and they don't give out the PW maps.
I think it will be a game changer once someone figures out a way to use FICM tuning to open the PW map so that more people can build a descent tune with actual knowledge of the PW is doing... instead of just fooling the ICP sensor.
It is defnitely possibly to retard SOI. But that does not give you control over SOC... that has to be theorized. There is NO WAY to "tune around" the physics of how the motor works. It is a trade off. If it was possible to get GIANT 200% nozzles to run "perfect" down low just like stock nozzles just through tuning then EVERYONE WOULD DO IT. Cummins guys, Duramax gusy, common rail guys. EVERYONE. But you cant. Hop on one of the duramax forums forums or 6.7 powerstroke forums. With better turbos, more efficient injection system, better heads, better tuning, etc... they DON'T RECOMMEND GIANT NOZZLES FOR TOWING, most don't reccommend them even for daily driving.
This is not to say... through a lot of trial and error, to get your truck to "work". But it is not optimal for most guys. For 90% of the population, who are not chasing big HP, GIANT NOZZLES are not the answer. You will get everything and more out of a smaller set of nozzles and end up withing 5-10hp of what you would have had with GIANT NOZZLES
This is an AWESOME read for any seriously interested in learning more.
http://www.maxxtorque.com/2009/03/diesel-timing.html
I was not exactly sure what you meant by this... but I can tell you that one of the BIGGEST complaints I have is guys trying to drive/tow like a stock truck with larger HP parts because they read on the internet that it tows just fine. People forget to metnion the "downsides" of some of these setups.
THESE ARE REAL SCENARIOS WITH CUSTOMERS>>> I WILL GIVE AN EXAMPLE
Customer: "Oh no, What should I do? I have 250/100s and your turbo. If I try to tow 12k up a 7% at 1800rpms in OD my egts climb up past 1200 degress so I have to let out of the throttle. I end up climbing the hills at like 30mph to keep my EGTs in check"
Our Response: "Try downshifting and towing at 2200-2500rpms. Use the tow/haul button and try to keep your rpms up a little more. That will help the truck run cooler and cleaner"
Customer: "but I want the best fuel mileage. I read on the internet that if I keep my rpms down then I will get better fuel mileage while towing. Also I can't tow at 2500rpms. That is almost redline. I don't want to hurt my motor"
Our Response: These trucks tow much better at 2200-2500rpms. That rpm range will not hurt anything.
Customer: "I tried what you said and it cooled right down but I am not happy, I think something is wrong with my setup. I read on the internet that guys tow just fine with this setup. Maybe I need to go with a bigger turbo or larger nozzles. I read on the internet that those guys have great luck towing with 250/200s and an s369 turbo. The larger nozzles make the truck run cooler and the s369 flows over 95 lbs/min. Do you think that will help?
Our Response: :cursing::badidea::cursing:
I think sometimes you guys don't realize what happens with all this info posted on the inernet... maybe this gives you a better idea.
Were you pulling those heavy loads up a 7% grade at 1800rpms in OD while keeping egts under 1100? Dont forget about that part.
I would bet you can tow with ANY turbo/injector combo. But you are going to have to change your driving style and work a lot on tuning.
mikeeg02
New member
This. Even I have to remember this. Sure, I'm going to do what I can to improve sub 1,800 rpm performance, but mine works really well with a load on it from 2,000-3,500. But I only have 100% nozzles.
mikeeg02
New member
I should add that I knew the reason for larger nozzles was to move my horsepower higher in the rpm range. But I can forget this when I hook to something. Then I need to remind myself. Everything gets better with rpms.......
I wonder if there's any testing we can do on the dyno to simulate this scenario, maybe put the load on for a designated time and monitor reading and increase load # to simulate a graded hill towing ? Got both trucks available.
Can i tow with my 250s, yes... is it a pain, yes. Its a play / race setup. I keep the tow piggy with 160s and a BASB turbo to do heavy hauling weekly and performs flawlessly and getting 13.5mpg with 20k on it. Most people don't even understand the o/d or how to tow in the first place also, and its not a cummins you can't lug these trucks.
Yep I agree. If your towing heavy then stick with an injector that allows you to keep your engine alive and heavy loads. If you want a race rig then you have to go about it in a different way. I have tried towing with 250/100's and a bell hfsb and would it tow? Yes was it clean and manageable? No. So I scaled back and found a setup that works well for working and to play a little but that's not my main use hence the reason I went smaller. That has been the best thing I have done to date.
That was funny.. I think everyone does realize, but their living isn't dependent on managing it
Ive sold race parts in other hobbies and I could imagine the things that you've been told. There are customers that you wished you never met..lolYour last paragraph is what I was getting at. I know php is one of two that is able. But what you said lastly. 100%
