de-watering methods

rsr911

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Here's what I've learned:
Upflow processing, works great for "free" water and some emulsified water, takes 2-3 days to make a batch
Adding 15% RUG then mixing. Needs to settle a minimum of 1-2 days if the oil is emulsified (milky). Leaves sludge in the bottom of the barrel
Boiling. Garantteed to get the water out if you actually measure the temp and get the oil to 220F or higher. Some sludge, does not remove much other contaminate.
Centrifuge, no experience. Seems time consuming and messy.

Based on what I've learned and the fact that I am processing A LOT of oil each week my plan is to combine 1,2,3. Boil the incoming oil if it appears milky at all, add 10% RUG, mix and transfer to my holding tank. Since the oil is now dry and the RUG does it's thing in the holding tank I can then upflow at more than double my 10-20 gallon per day rate. I can do 45 gallons per day. I set up a 55 gallon drum as a funnel. As long as I keep on top of filling the holding tank with boiled and/or RUG blended oil I can make a batch every day. The boiling barrel I'm building is insulated, has a temp controller to shut off at 220F, and has a cone top to vent out of my garage.

So why is the guy who initially pushed the upflow idea now talking about boiling and RUG blend settling? Well I got 375 gallons of free hydraulic and cutting oil but it had about 3-5% water in it. I let it settle for over a month now and it still has water in it and it's still really milky. Adding 15% RUG didn't quite get it clear. Upflowing on a small scale test didn't do it either. I tried molecular sieve/zeolite and it works but is too costly. Boiling? Well it just worked great. RUG blend settling is great but what do you do with the sludge at the bottom when you're making a barrel a day? That's where the upflow fits in. Run the RUG blend through the upflow and it catches the sludge which you can drain off later. This leaves a mix barrel full of oil that just needs to be adjusted with a little more RUG and then fine filtered.

So is boiling necessary? In most cases no. In most cases either RUG blend settling or the upflow system will get the water/sludge out. However if you get a really milky batch of oil boiling is about the easiest way to get the water out. Do you need a fancy system like I'm building? Nope. I only did that because I'm processing oil for two other guys with a third looking to join the club. These guys are great but aren't super mechanically inclined and one of them is frequently 300-500 miles away from home so I want to guarantee that I'm putting good fuel in their tanks. When I was doing this just for myself the occasional filter change due to a bad batch was no big deal. I'd pump out the tank and fix the batch. But what about when my buddy is on the road with 100 gallons on board and he needs all of it to make the trip? and he has appointments back to back 100 miles apart?

So here is my opinion. The more I look at it I like drmiller100's (Doug's) method a lot. Great for small scale 1-2 batches a week. If you combine that will upflow afterwards then even better. In fact you could for all intents and purposes us a 55 gallon drum as your mix tank/funnel, run it through the upflow the starting the same day you blend and into a collection drum for final filtering. Every 2-3 batches drain the sludge out of the upflow. That system should let you do 3-4 batches a week and could just be added to Doug's system later. I guess a lot depends on your needs and fuel demand. Or you could boil (if needed), RUG blend then upflow as needed. If you have 100-300 gallons already RUG blended and settling you can run the upflow fast, like 2 gph and do a batch every day.
 

rsr911

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There would only be residual gas in the oil that I heat as in blow by gas from car engines. I agree that no amount of settling seems to get emulsified water out completely. I have found however that a semi truck water separator will eventually get it out but it takes many passes. I have also found that a true quality diesel fuel filter will plug much faster than a similar sized absolute rated cartridge for a WF housing and they cannot take much pressure without blowing by the end seals. I rearranged some stuff tonight and ran my new Baldwin diesel fuel filter. At first I had two 10" 5 micron stringwounds in series as always followed by a 20" absolute rated cartridge with some "miles" on it (about 250 gallons) then the Baldwin. Even with a gear pump I would only get spurts of fuel out of the hose. I took the Baldwin out of the loop and same deal, so the large absolute was mostly clogged. Since I know the Baldwin can take some pressure I moved it to the pressure side, pulled the 20" out and put another 5 micron stringwound in place and started pumping. I plugged the Baldwin at about 35 gallons! Shut the motor right down which is good I suppose. Popped another Baldwin cartridge in and throttled back the pump and ran the rest of the oil. I was not recirculating like I normally do through the stringwounds. I also did not settle after adding the RUG. I was really trying to test filter efficiency and what I think I found is that my stringwound filters are not fine enough. Back when I did WVO I used to use 1 micron stringwound filters, two in series. I think I'll go back to doing that but have three, one in each housing. I'll move the 20" to the output of my finished storage tank as a safety precaution. I'll leave the Baldwin on the pressure side of the pump since it is pressure rated. I've noticed that I rarely plug an onboard Azone filter but if I put a Baldwin on there in will plug relatively quickly. That's what started me down the Baldwin filter path for my process. After talking with the Baldwin rep the filter I ordered for my process is what he felt would be a good compliment to my on board filters (assuming Baldwin brand). Since I can get Baldwin's wholesale through a friend this makes the most sense for my filtration. Later I plan to put new seals in my Racor 1000FG water separator housing. It must be run on the suction side and will take Baldwin or Racor 5,10, or 20 micron absolute cartridges. I'm hoping my pump has enough guts to pull through a 5 micron filter in it and push through the other Baldwin. When I do that I'll use the stringwounds for recirc only and the good filters for pumping into storage or the truck.
 

rsr911

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Just an update to this thread that I haven't posted elsewhere. I've been having an issue with plugging my process filters lately processing this big batch of water emulsified oil. I've boiled almost all of it at this point. Tonight I was curious as to what was causing the plugging so I borrowed a bag filter canister from work and dropped in a 0.5u filter bag. Found the culprit, the 2% molecular sieve I mixed in trying to pull the water out. It did get some water out but is too costly to put enough in to finish the job. Anyway the bag filter was clearly clogged with molecular sieve which I proved after washing with clean toluene and oven drying. "Dirty" white powder. Seems that little experiment was a bit costly as I've plugged a bunch of process filters.
 

rsr911

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A funny thing happened on the way to the market LOL. I've been adding 10% RUG to all incoming oil that goes into my storage tank. Lately I've been draining it regularly and getting a greyish sludge. Well my bag filter that I borrowed is no longer collecting molecular sieve, it's all fallen to the bottom of my large tank. Chalk up another "win" for RUG causing contaminate and water to drop out of suspension.
 

evo45

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What are you heating your oil in rsr? I want to do the up flow but my problem with it is I dont have enough oil supply to allow it to sit for long enough for all of the water to settle out. Plus when I pick up the oil the pump emulsifies the water which makes the process of letting it settle out take even longer.

Thanks
Vic
 

rsr911

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When I need to heat, which is rare, I use two drum band heaters and an open top drum. There needs to be a LOT of emulisified water for me to heat though. I will generally test with 10% RUG and if that fails to drop the water out in 1-2 days then I will heat the oil.

If you are using an SBC pump for collection and have an issue with it emulsifying the oil then slow the pump speed down. Mines powered by a gas engine, at idle I get little or no emusification but at full throttle it really whips it up.
 

evo45

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I am using my green filter thing I posted a pic of to do pickups and to filter. There isnt a throttle on it to turn it down for pickups. I have 2 Cim-tek filters on it for secondary filtering and the water seperator one just clogged up. I had let the oil settle with rug in it for a couple days but I guess it wasnt enough. The filter has stopped the flow of fuel to a slow trickle which means it is full of water. It will stop 98% of flow at 40 psi once it is full of water so that is a plus to using this filter. I only run it at 10-15 psi and it seems like it is working! Ill add more rug tonight and give it a few days and check back.
Thanks
Vic
 

brucem

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Centrifuge, no experience. Seems time consuming and messy.

not to sound like a dick, but you couldn't be more wrong about the above. A gravity fed centrifuge spinning at 3450 or 6000 rpm, will dry and clean your oil in a single pass if you feed it slow enough. Sure startup cost is pretty high to do it right, but in the long run the savings in time, consumable filters, and electricity to boil oil you'd come out ahead in no-time.

Each time you fill your truck up with a WMO blend, the money you are saving could buy a complete CF in 8 to 10 fillups.

I regularly process 275 gallon batches of WVO via a centrifuge. Granted the oil has usually settled for a few weeks before I run a batch (which I'd recommend with WMO too), from when I pump it to the feed tote to when I pump it into a storage tote after processing it, I might put in 2hours hands on time. 20-30 minutes pumping to the top tote, fire up fuge, adjust temperature (punching an arrow on a digital controller), adjust flow with a measuring cup and stopwatch, go inside and get on with my life for 8-10 hours before going and checking flow rate again.

Granted with WMO you would want to feed nice and slow to make sure you get all the carbon and gook out, but even at 2-3gallons an hour, you'd spend 5 minutes every 10 hours or so adjusting the flow, with the CF running. Also with WMO I'd bet one would want to stop the CF and check the amount of captured crap every 50 to 100 gallons or so and clean out as necessary. Cleaning is simple, take your wife's worst kitchen spatula, and scrape out the cake from the bowl. Then fire it back up. After your first batch or so you'd learn how long you can run it for before you need to clean it out, and the clean out can be done while the bowl remains in the CF depending on the model of CF you have.

We're talking getting your WMO, WVO, hydraulic oil, transformer oil, WAFT, rendered beef fat clean down to the order of less than one micron, in 1 pass! While not forgetting that you maybe spent 5 to 15 minutes to do 50-100 gallons, depending on the amt of dirt caught in the bowl.

No house water filter or spin on filter is gonna catch as much crap as a CF will, all while not costing you $'s every time you plus a filter or spin on type filter. I run my CF for 48 to 55 hours straight, unattended while running WVO from 4-7 GPH. gone 15k on ONE filter (7mic) on my WVO system, and I'm not even close to needing to change it. I have been pumping my cleaned oil thru 5 micron absolute bags for well over 2000 gallons and haven't seen more than a 3psi rise in pressure pushing thru the bag, and I would hazard that is from the different temps of the oil I am pushing thru it.

Save your self a whole bunch of time, filters, and yeah time, get a gravity fed CF and wonder why you ever thought they were "Seems time consuming and messy".

No I am not affiliated with any CF maker.
 

Clay

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not to sound like a dick, but you couldn't be more wrong about the above. A gravity fed centrifuge spinning at 3450 or 6000 rpm, will dry and clean your oil in a single pass if you feed it slow enough. Sure startup cost is pretty high to do it right, but in the long run the savings in time, consumable filters, and electricity to boil oil you'd come out ahead in no-time.

Each time you fill your truck up with a WMO blend, the money you are saving could buy a complete CF in 8 to 10 fillups.

I regularly process 275 gallon batches of WVO via a centrifuge. Granted the oil has usually settled for a few weeks before I run a batch (which I'd recommend with WMO too), from when I pump it to the feed tote to when I pump it into a storage tote after processing it, I might put in 2hours hands on time. 20-30 minutes pumping to the top tote, fire up fuge, adjust temperature (punching an arrow on a digital controller), adjust flow with a measuring cup and stopwatch, go inside and get on with my life for 8-10 hours before going and checking flow rate again.

Granted with WMO you would want to feed nice and slow to make sure you get all the carbon and gook out, but even at 2-3gallons an hour, you'd spend 5 minutes every 10 hours or so adjusting the flow, with the CF running. Also with WMO I'd bet one would want to stop the CF and check the amount of captured crap every 50 to 100 gallons or so and clean out as necessary. Cleaning is simple, take your wife's worst kitchen spatula, and scrape out the cake from the bowl. Then fire it back up. After your first batch or so you'd learn how long you can run it for before you need to clean it out, and the clean out can be done while the bowl remains in the CF depending on the model of CF you have.

We're talking getting your WMO, WVO, hydraulic oil, transformer oil, WAFT, rendered beef fat clean down to the order of less than one micron, in 1 pass! While not forgetting that you maybe spent 5 to 15 minutes to do 50-100 gallons, depending on the amt of dirt caught in the bowl.

No house water filter or spin on filter is gonna catch as much crap as a CF will, all while not costing you $'s every time you plus a filter or spin on type filter. I run my CF for 48 to 55 hours straight, unattended while running WVO from 4-7 GPH. gone 15k on ONE filter (7mic) on my WVO system, and I'm not even close to needing to change it. I have been pumping my cleaned oil thru 5 micron absolute bags for well over 2000 gallons and haven't seen more than a 3psi rise in pressure pushing thru the bag, and I would hazard that is from the different temps of the oil I am pushing thru it.

Save your self a whole bunch of time, filters, and yeah time, get a gravity fed CF and wonder why you ever thought they were "Seems time consuming and messy".

No I am not affiliated with any CF maker.
Ditto this. heat the oil to 150*, gravity feed into a Simple Centrifuge at 8-10 gph and oil will be clean and dry in one pass. I've tried all the other methods with varying results and nothing comes close to the perfection I get from fuging.
 

Simone0414

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I agree with Clay & Bruce. Centrifuge is the way to go. Not saying that other methods won't work but the centrifuge will clean all types of oil the best IMHO. I have never heard of anyone using a centrifuge & going back to heating & settling, upflow or what have you.
 

Mdub707

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Centrifuge compared to heat/settle or upflow is like comparing turbocharger to N/A. It's forced gravity.
 

muns53

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I never heard of using gasoline to drop out crud from WVO. Interesting idea, but to my way of thinking, it sounds expensive and messy. Got any pics/vids? I can't quite get my head around what happens to the drop-out stuff and the gas.

I got to see an SBC pump in action last weekend and I got to built one myself. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

FYI, I am using a gravity-fed CF with 150*F pre-heating and I give it a final push through a Donaldson spin-on filter into storage. I also treat the oil with an antioxidant for storage. No mess, no fuss, very little hands-on time... and clean, dry oil that stays usable for a VERY long time. Works for me.
 

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