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Old 05-15-2012, 11:32 AM
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Default My tow pig/DD build thread. F350/Cummins 6.7/twins/6R140

I'm starting my tow pig build, so here is the thread.

The goal of the build is to replace the Ford 6.4 diesel engine and 5R110 transmission in my 08 F350 King Ranch with a twin turbo Cummins 6.7 and 6R140 transmission.

Performance objectives are to get as much reliable, fuel efficent power from the engine/transmission combo as possible for the purpose of towing a 14K pound 5th wheel in mountains as well as being a great daily driver and long distance driver.

Engine mods include paint, studs, 12V rods, twin turbos, tapped freeze plugs in the head, dual fuel filters and tuning with EFI Live.

The high pressure fuel system will probably remain stock, though I might install small oversize injectors if the fuel injection duration is too long to achieve the desired power. For injector longevity, I will be running stock fuel pressures.

The 6R140 and TC will remain stock. I specifically selected them for this swap because of their strength. I love the 6R140 gear ratios.

Numbers wise, I'm shooting for 1100+ ftlbs or better at the crank from 1600 RPM to 2750 RPM. If you are doing the math, that is 350 HP at 1650 and nearly 600 HP at 2750. Knock 20% off for driveline loss and I should see 280 and 480HP on a dyno. It will take over 50 PSI of boost to acheive this, thus the twin turbos.

A stock 2011 HO Dodge truck with a 6.7 is rated at 350 HP and 800 ftlbs at the crank and puts a bit over 280 HP to the ground on a dyno at 2700 RPM.

I am also seeking 20 MPG at 65-70 MPH in real world interstate driving and 11+ MPG pulling our 5er.

This engine will NOT be a dyno queen. Lots of Cummins engines can make 4-500 HP to the rear wheels for 10 seconds on the dyno. My engine mods are designed for tow use, which means no smoke and EGTS of less than 1300F at all times.

The turbo setup will be an S475 W 1.32 A/R primary and an HE351VE as the secondary. I might wastegate one or both, depending on how controllable the boost is via EFI Live.

A stock HE351VE delivers about 50 pounds per minute before it runs out of map. The S475 is from a Detroit Diesel Series 60 475-550 HP engine and delivers over 100 pounds per minute within its map.

I'm doing this project on a budget. When all is said and done, ie the old parts are sold, I am shooting for the overall cost to be less than $5K.

This is my second swap. My first swap was an 05 5.9 CR into a '99 F250 using a ZF6. Its run great for over 5 years. It was stolen and damaged last fall, thus this is the replacement truck for it.

I hope to have this swap running by the end of June, 2012, but I know that is very tight. I'm not sure if I'll make it or not.

Here is the truck.



Its an 08 F350 LB CC King Ranch, loaded. I bought it last fall with 82K. Its now got a bit over 100K on it. Its been back to the dealer several times on warranty since I bought it, including a complete fuel system replacement by Ford.

Its got 20 inch rubber, 3.73 gearing and a GVWR of 11,500 pounds. It weighs about 8200 pounds with fuel and me in it.

Other than the engine its been trouble free since I got it. I love just about everything about it.

Here is the engine.



Its a late 09 Cummins 6.7. I has 4K miles on it. I picked it up at a wrecker on the drive home from buying the truck. I'll be running an 08 ECM on it, at least until EFI Live supports 09+ ECMs.

Here is the transmission.



Its a Ford 2010 Torqushift 6 aka 6R140. I bought it at a wrecker.

Here are the turbos.



From left to right, HE351VE, HE451VE and S475. I was going to run the HE451VE as a big single, but a) it didn't output quite enough air at the top end, b) is was worried about surging at the bottom end and c) I can set up twins for the same cost and hassle, so I decided to go that way.

I'll sell the HE451 once I know for sure I don't want it.

Here are just some of the documentation and tools required to do this project.



As you can imagine, marrying a Cummins 6.7, 6R140 and 08 F350 together is not trivial as far as the electronics are concerned. This is by far the hardest component of the project. But it will be well worth it for the performance, economy and reliability that we get from it.

Here is what my shop presently looks like.



We moved last fall and I'm just getting settled in.

First step in the project is to clean the shop. Next step is to finish installing a new bearing in the band saw. Third step is to put some oversized wheels on my engine hoist. Fourth step is to build a decent engine stand to hold the 6.7 while I perform the engine mods and hang the 6R140 on it. After that I'll start tearing apart the 6.7.

Several components are in transit as I write this.

The transfer case, rods, ECM connector, studs, resonator, flex plate, etc. have not arrived yet. I expect most of this stuff to arrive this week. A few special items are also still either being bought or in transit.

Other than that, I think I have just about everything I need to get started.

The purchasing and learning component of this project has taken a lot of time and effort. Since I bought the truck in early November, just about all my spare time has been spent reading, learning and figuring stuff out.

I don't have every aspect of this swap worked out. I've got enough worked out to know I can get it running, but there are bound to be a few obstacles along the way. Its going to be fun.

I'll post as progress dictates.

Last edited by me2; 05-15-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:39 AM
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Looks like you have almost everything figured out! Glad to see you have a plan in place.
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:44 AM
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Any intrest in trying a HE551veTI? My buddy was gonna run it on his 6.7 but is going non VGT, so he will make somebody a good deal on it
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:45 AM
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this is going to be sweet!!
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:46 AM
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very cool!
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Old 05-15-2012, 11:56 AM
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Will be following!
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post

Here are just some of the documentation and tools required to do this project.



As you can imagine, marrying a Cummins 6.7, 6R140 and 08 F350 together is not trivial as far as the electronics are concerned. This is by far the hardest component of the project. But it will be well worth it for the performance, economy and reliability that we get from it.
^^^^^^^ This picture right here^^^^^^^^

That is why I am watching this thread. This is a picture that only someone knowledgeable and dedicated to a project would be able to take. I'm looking forward to see the progress.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:06 PM
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Thanks, guys !

Re HE551, I'm looking for boost down low, thus the twin setup. I think an HE551 has like a 76 or 80mm compressor wheel, depending on the model, and I suspect it will surge at the low flows a 6.7 has at 1600 or 1800 RPM.

I actually have turbo compressor maps and a spreadsheet for 6.7 air flows and HP to back up this reasoning if anyone wants to see them.

Its very nice to see a guy with a tuned 6.4 and another guy using an Allison in his swap offering encouragement. There are many ways to build a truck.

Last edited by me2; 05-15-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:29 PM
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I wrote the original post up about a week ago. Since then I got the new bearing in the bandsaw, the transfer case arrived, the rods arrived, I got my welders (Stick, plasma and TIG) set up and my garage is a lot cleaner.

The 12V rods need to go out for new wrist pin bushings. Actually I am not sure they need new bushings, but I am not going to take the chance. New bushings are about $50, but need the work of an engine machine shop to be installed and honed to the correct size. I've been quoted $150 labor for the set of 6, including a steam bath.

The engine builder wants a wrist pin from my 6.7 to size the bushings to when he hones them. Which means I need to get my engine torn apart. But I can't do that until I get the engine stand built and I'm presently out of town right now...

Why replaced the rods in a brand new 6.7 ?

Here are some interesting threads I found on the subject.

Montreal guy breaks a rod in his 6.7.
- "I towed with it many times and it was a dream good power low egt's fuel efficient it was the perfect set up till well... BOUM!!!"
- Stock 6.7 rods, a few mods and some towing.
- http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/6-...-rod-help.html

Pictures of Rod Failures
- http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=127171

After 5 Years... it had enough and went boom
- 3942579 rods failed. They were polished.
- Bad luck or bad polishing ?
- http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=132171

Time for some better rods
- Bends 6 STOCK 12V rods in a CR at 900 HP.
- None of them break
- http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=125830

Interesting document.
http://www.forging.org/system/files/...ueBehavior.pdf

So, from this I deduce...

1) Stock 6.7 rods are not up to the task. If Montreal guy blew them with towing, so will I. 6.7 rods seem to snap, not bend, causing catastrophic damage. If the rods bend before they break, at least you have a chance to catch the problem before it causes damage.

2) The polished and peened 3942579 rods failed. Bad rod or bad polishing ? Rods are heat treated and all it would take is a local overheat with a grinder to wreck them.
And they need to be peened to be good if they are polished. Peening too deep actually makes them worse.

Do shops that rework rods know this and have sufficient quality control ?

3) Stock 5.9 rods seem to bend but not break. And it takes 900 HP to bend them and even bent they run fine for a long time.

Thus I am going to run stock 24V 5.9 rods.

And while we are at it, not all 12V connecting rods are the same.

Cummins TSB 98T0-5 "ISB Block Parts Compatibility"



My rods are used 3922581 rods with casting number 3922579 from an early 24V engine.

I should be more careful when I talk about rods for these engines. In my OP, I stated its getting 12V rods. Technically, that isn't correct. Its actually getting 24V ISB rods.

Last edited by me2; 05-15-2012 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:35 PM
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Just because I am out of town doesn't mean I am not working on my project. I'll be spending a day looking at the CAN messages involved with shifting the 6R140 in my Dad's 2011 F350.
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:44 PM
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Very cool and very well thought out!
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:01 PM
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Very cool and very well thought out!
We'll see.

There is a lot of stuff to get right to make it all work. I'm a bit nervous about being this public with the project but I love reading about everyone else's project, so its time I give back.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:02 PM
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Very interested in seeing how you get the 6R140 to play nicely.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
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We'll see.

There is a lot of stuff to get right to make it all work. I'm a bit nervous about being this public with the project but I love reading about everyone else's project, so its time I give back.
Well its definitely a lot more complicated than my conversion, I thought my wiring was a pain
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:12 PM
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Very interested in seeing how you get the 6R140 to play nicely.
Agreed. That is a hurdle that would be worth getting figured out as early as possible in the project.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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For a bit of background, this isn't my first swap. My first swap was an 05 5.9CR into a '99 F250 using a ZF6.

That truck was stolen last fall. Although it has been recovered, I decided its time to start over with a new truck. I'm trying to take everything that I liked about my old truck and improve it with the new truck.

I did that conversion in July of 2005. I put about 80K on it since then, a lot of those miles pulling 5ers. Its been a flawless truck. Its never let me down.









I tend to build a lot of my own parts for my swap. This swap will be no different.





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Old 05-15-2012, 01:24 PM
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This is what it will be pulling.


My old truck pulled it OK, but it had a full load when you got into headwinds and/or pulled in mountains. The engine in my old truck was stock 325/610.

With my new setup, I'm looking for effortless cruising under all conditions with good fuel economy. I'm hoping that between the increased engine power/torque and better gear ratios in the 6R140, ie pulling in 5th gear, that it gets me there.

The trailer has grown a bit since that picture. It now sports an extra kayak or two and a big rear rack loaded with stuff. And solar panels. And sometimes I pull a very small boat behind, depending on what the local jurisdictions allow.


Last edited by me2; 05-15-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:29 PM
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Agreed. That is a hurdle that would be worth getting figured out as early as possible in the project.
Unfortunately, you can only go so far in that regard before you need to rip out the 6.4 and start testing the 6.7 and 6R140 in the truck.

I think I'm there. But there is no way to anticipate what I might encounter.

i might be calling on people with an '08 to '11 and Auto Enginuity to watch PIDs for me if I run into trouble after my truck becomes "incapacitated".

Let me state it up front, this swap is a bit of a gamble as far as the transmission selection goes. I think the engine part is fine. If the transmission doesn't doesn't work out, I'll fall back to a different model.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:32 PM
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Very cool project. look forward to seeing this build play out
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:32 PM
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Lookin good sir!
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:33 PM
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Unfortunately, you can only go so far in that regard before you need to rip out the 6.4 and start testing the 6.7 and 6R140 in the truck.

I think I'm there. But there is no way to anticipate what I might encounter.

i might be calling on people with an '08 to '11 and Auto Enginuity to watch PIDs for me if I run into trouble after my truck becomes "incapacitated".

Let me state it up front, this swap is a bit of a gamble as far as the transmission selection goes. I think the engine part is fine. If the transmission doesn't doesn't work out, I'll fall back to a different model.
I might even go so far as to recommend testing whatever controller you intend on using on an actual truck. I agree its a gamble - but you also have a whole lot of what you need in that picture I posted - combine that with an actual truck to get signals off of and being able to figure out how and when to apply which solenoids and do it so it doesn't "lock up" the trans is going to make or break the transmission selection.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:37 PM
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this is one hell of a project! looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:53 PM
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this is one hell of a project! looking forward to seeing how it turns out.
I'm surprised that nobody has done it before. The GVWR on my F350 is 11,500 pounds. As close as you can get to a dually without having one. That is a big plus for me. The GVWR on my old truck was 8800 pounds ! It handled the trailer well, but its time to move up a bit.

FWIW, my old truck had air ride suspension, front and back. My F350 will be getting the same, in due time.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:15 AM
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I'm getting lots of questions, so rather than answer them individually, I will answer them here.

What ECM am I using ?

Its a CM2100 from an 08 truck. This engine originally came with a CM2200 ECM, but EFI Live doesn't handle those yet, so I'll use the CM2100 ECM until then.

How do I wire the ECM into the truck ?

The CM2100 ECMs have 2 connectors. One handles all the engine connections, like sensors, injectors and those sorts of things.

The other connector is the "OEM" stuff, ie the truck builder. This is usually Dodge, Freightliner, etc., but in this case its where I connect the engine to my truck.

My local Cummins dealer got me a connector ($55) and pins to plug into the OEM port. The OEM and engine ports look the same, but they are keyed differently. I think the Engine port has a "5" key and the OEM port has a "6" key. If you are ordering one and need to know, if you look into the connector beside the key you can see it printed there.

Having separate OEM and Engine ports on the ECM is new. When I wired my 5.9 into old truck, the engine wiring harness itself had a connector (C130) which was where everything connected in.

Does the ECM need anything from the Dodge truck to run the engine ?

No, sort of.

Technically the Dodge Cummins engines are a complete stand alone unit with their ECM. However, some trucks have a security system in them, ie a SKIM (module) and when it is supposed to be there and isn't, the ECM shuts down the engine after it has run for 10 seconds.

Luckily this functionality can be disabled with EFI Live. And I'll be doing that if my ECMs have it enabled.

Other than a SKIM, all the engine needs are power to the correct pins and an accelerator (throttle) signal. There are a number of ways to do the throttle signal, one of which is to use a Dodge accelerator pedal assembly. For various reasons I will not be doing that.

How are you going to get the Ford transmission controller to talk to the Cummins engine ?

There are 2 answers to this question.

Answer 1) I'm not going to use the Ford transmission controller. I am going to use a custom controller.

I am doing this because I want the transmission to do some things that the Ford controller doesn't support. I'll get into this later in the swap.

2) I think its pretty feasible to get the Ford transmission controller to work behind the Cummins engine. I've taken a really good look at the schematics for the 2011 Fords and basically its just a matter of sending the right CAN messages to the Ford controller and it would work.

Having said that, the message formats used by the Cummins(Dodge) ECM and the Ford ECM are different. It does not appear that Ford supports the J1939 format, whereas the Cummins (Dodge) ECM has a mixture of J1939 and proprietary formats.

However, even though the formats are different, the necessary data appears to be all there.

However, one can build a microcontroller that sits between the Cummins engine and the Ford transmission controller that gets the data the TC needs from the ECM and converts it into the Ford format and sends it to the ECM.

So it is very possible to do this swap using the Ford TC.

I've heard that Ford is having trouble with the 6R140. Why are you using it in a swap ?

Ford is having shift calibration issues with the 6R140. Under certain conditions some of the solenoids are shifting some of the clutches sooner or later than they should be, which is leading to missed shifts or shift flare.

Because I am using a custom TC and tuning it myself, I should be able to tune around any shift calibrations issues that Ford may be having.

Will your truck be emissions compliant ?

I'm not an expert, but most jurisdictions allow an engine swap provided the new engine is the same emissions age or new than the old one.

The Cummins 6.7 is emissions certified until 2012. My specific engine was used in a MY 2010 truck. My truck is a MY2008.

If my Cummins 6.7 was equipped with all its emissions equipment, my truck would have no problem passing an emissions test anywhere in the country.

Obviously the twin turbo setup negates passing the emissions test in some jurisdictions. But nothing stops me from putting the engine back to stock should I need to.

I will be ******** the EGR and *** for the time being. I may install them at a later date.

FWIW, I could also have probably swapped in a MY2007.5 Cummins 5.9 into my truck, its an early Job 1 truck. However, it would probably be a lot easier to convince an inspector that the swap is compliant if the new engine (6.7) has a *** like the old on (6.4) did.

How am I going to handle the OBDII scanning ?

My truck will have 2 OBDII scan ports. One for the chassis and the other for the engine.

The Ford ECM will stay installed in my truck as it is needed to handle certain dash and body functions. It would be a big job to remove it and replace it with a custom "body" computer.

There were a bunch of mechanical questions too, but I'll answer them as we go because pictures will make it apparent what I am doing. Pictures don't tell much of a story when it comes to wiring and software.

Last edited by me2; 05-16-2012 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
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Why am I not using an Allison ?

I am going to address this question once because it was asked. I don't want to start a debate on it. Everyone has their favorite components. I might be right, I might be wrong, bottom line is I am going to try the 6R140. If its a dud, I'll swap it out.

Cost.

A stock 6 speed Allison transmission will not hold 1100 ftlbs, especially in a towing application. The stock OD clutch packs are notorious for failing in towing applications.

I don't mean that statement as an insult to the transmission or anyone who owns one. I arrived at that conclusion by spending about a week of my spare time on Duramax forums and reading about transmission failures. I did the same sort of reading on Ford and Dodge forums.

A 6 speed Allison transmission core is $2500. A high performance rebuild is about $5K. Total transmission cost, about $7500.

I think a stock 6R140 will hold 1100 ftlbs in a towing application. Its a new transmission. I might be right, I might be wrong.

From what I can tell the 5R110 does better than any other stock auto transmission with tuned engines. I think the 6R140 takes that strength a step further and adds another gear ratio.

For those that aren't aware, the 6R140 was a clean sheet design. Its totally new with zero carry over from the 5R110.

The "140" part of the name means its designed to handle 1400 ftlbs of torque on the transmission input shaft. With a TC ratio of 1.8, that is roughly 800 ftlbs at the engine, but with the TC locked, that is a full 1400 ftlbs from the engine. And that is with stock clutch pack application pressures.

I paid $2450 for my 6R140 with the torque converter, with less than 10K on it.

I'll be using the stock TC as well.

Gear Ratios

The gear ratios in the Allison are 3.1, 1.81, 1.41, 1.0, 0.71 and 0.61.
The gear ratios in the 6R140 are 3.97, 2.32, 1.52, 1.15, 0.86 and 0.67
The top 2 gear ratios in a ZF6 are 1.0 and 0.72.

My old truck has the same axle ratios and tires as my new truck.

With the ZF6 in OD (0.72), the engine is running 1650 RPM at 60MPH. That is not a good gear for towing, although the stock 5.9 will tow our trailer there unless we are climbing a significant grade or have a very strong headwind.

The next gear down on the ZF is direct, which works for towing, but the engine is running about 2300 RPM at 60 MPH, where its noisier and thirstier. Engine speed is about 2450 at 65 MPH.

With the Allison transmission, towing in OD (0.61) is pretty much out of the question, especially given the issues people have with the OD clutch pack.

The next gear down is 0.71, which is just about the same as OD in the ZF6 I have now. That gear will work, but its not optimal.

The next gear down from that is direct, which is the same as in the ZF6.

So a 6 speed Allison basically gives me the same gear ratios for towing that I had with the ZF6, with the addition of another OD gear for running empty.

What I really want is a double OD transmission with 2 usable OD gears for towing. Enter the 6R140.

OD is 0.67 in the 6R140, which is about 1550 RPM at 60 MPH and 1650 RPM at 65 MPH. In easy towing conditions, a torquey 6.7 can probably pull the trailer in that gear and it should result in very good fuel economy. Edit. My dad has a smaller 5er than we do. His truck has a taller axle ratio (3.31 ?) but he doesn't have 20" wheels and he pulls his trailer in OD all the time.

When the load gets too heavy, one gear down is 0.86, which is 1970 RPM at 60 MPH and 2134 RPM at 65 MPH. I think that is almost the perfect engine speed for towing. Its 400 RPM less than a direct gear.

The next gear down on the 6R140 is 1.15:1, which is a little bigger split than I'd like but still a very usable gear. It puts the engine right into its powerband at 2650 RPM at 60 MPH. If my engine plans work out, my engine makes nearly 600 HP at the crank there. Should be a perfect gear for pulling steep passes at 50 MPH, which is 2200 RPM. I expect my engine to make 500 HP (1200 ftlbs) at the crank at 2200 RPM.

There are other misc reasons as well, such as the Ford column shifter works (mechanically) directly with the 6R140 with no modifications. Or at least it appears to.

The devil is in the details. I'll share what I learn, right or wrong, going forward.

Last edited by me2; 05-16-2012 at 12:38 PM.
  #26  
Old 05-16-2012, 12:56 PM
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Here is a table of Allison transmission ratings from their 2010 brochure.



As you can see, the maximum input shaft (turbine) torque rating of these transmissions is 950 ftbls. Versus the 1400 ftlbs for the 6R140.

I'm sure that someone might chime in and tell me that the rating on the Allison used in the GM trucks is higher. And it probably is. But I can't help but feeling that the Allison has less strength reserve to deal with the torque my engine will make than the 6R140.

I'm also sure that there are many successful drag racing and pulling trucks running Allisons. Trailer towing is entirely different than drag racing or truck pulling. When pulling trailers the transmission clutches must hold the torque for hours at a time without slipping.

Last edited by me2; 05-16-2012 at 12:59 PM.
  #27  
Old 05-16-2012, 07:20 PM
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Not wanting to start an argument or question your decision - but I tow very heavy (I plead the 5th heavy...) with my Allison in my Dmax - the Dmax is rocking about 420hp in the tow tune with compounds - it is a super nice flat power curve - and I basically never leave 6th gear while on the interstate. Occasionally I will drop it down to 5th only to counteract a current tuning problem I have where my CP3 literally can not supply enough fuel volume to maintain the injection pressure and PW I am need to maintain speed at a low RPM. Yes - my transmission is "built" with an off the shelf set of parts in a common kit - but the kit cost is sub $3K - the Allison 6 speed trans I bought for my project out of a junkyard guaranteed good for $1K delivered - and I have the benefit of an almost plug and play Allison computer and harness unless I want to figure out how to enable torque limiting on my swap. So that would put you at $4K ish. Plus you could have the benefit of getting an Allison 1000 with an SAE bellhousing and an off the shelf SAE bellhousing adapter for the Cummins and bolt them together for significantly cheaper than custom making an adapter.

Again - I want to see the 6R work - I think its cool - but I felt I needed to add a little different perspective as I think its really a wash at the end of the day on which transmission you choose because each has their own unique set of headaches that need conquered, but the the Allison has people that has been there and conquered them before. Good luck and I hope the journey through this project is smooth as possible for you.
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  #28  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:49 PM
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The 6.7 comes in the F650's. Wouldn't it be easier to pull the electronics from a F650 vs. a Dodge?
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:19 PM
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I'm very glad you decided to put this up here, so far I've already learned a few things, and its been a great read! I am really looking forward to seeing the progression of this swap over the next month or so, not to mention someone trying something different! Everything looks great so far, and hopefully things go smoothly and as planned.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver View Post
The 6.7 comes in the F650's. Wouldn't it be easier to pull the electronics from a F650 vs. a Dodge?
I don't see any advantage.

Some or all of the non Dodge 6.7s use DEF and I don't want any part of that.

The non DEF engines have the same engine wiring from what I can tell by looking in Cummins Quickserve. On those engines only the ECM is different between them and the Dodge application.

The highest power rating that I know of for vehicle based 6.7s is the motorhome RV 6.7 which is rated at 360/800. I think they called it the ISB XT 6.7.

EFI Live does not work with non Dodge ECMs. Thus there is no way to turn off the EGR, ***, etc, or change the fuel delivery. That particular engine is paired with an Allison 3000 transmission, so I am not sure how it would work as a stand alone engine.
  #31  
Old 05-17-2012, 01:25 AM
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Transmission Adapter

People keep talking about the trouble and cost of making the transmission adapter plate. It really isn't a big deal.

The 6R140 uses an SAE #2 type bellhousing.

By type, I mean that it has the usual 12 holes equally spaced around the circle like a regular SAE #2 bellhousing, EXCEPT that the hole by the starter is out of position and there are a couple alignment dowels that aren't on a usual SAE #2 bellhousing, instead of the alignment lip that is on some.

I made the transmission adapter plate for the swap (5.9 CR and ZF6) on my old truck. The transmission pattern for the 7.3 ZF6* is much harder to set up than the transmission pattern for the 6R140. The block pattern is the same for the 5.9CR and the 6.7 CR and I still have my CAD files, so it shouldn't be very difficult to figure out the adapter plate geometry.

However, there are a couple snags.

Snag #1 is that I don't have the flex plate figured out yet and you need to get the flex plate depth correct before you make the transmission adapter plate.

The stock Dodge Cummins flex plates have been known to fail with increased power. They are out of the question.

The Ford flex plates seem to be fairly stout. But the center diameter and bolt pattern from the Ford 6.7 don't match the crankshaft pattern on the Cummins 6.7, so its not a simple bolt on. As a matter of fact, the Ford flex plate uses 10 bolts and the Cummins uses 8 bolts.

And there is a flexplate depth spacing issue as well.

I haven't figured out what I am doing to do about this yet. Options include machining my own flexplate, buying an aftermarket Cummins flexplate or making an adapter to mount the Ford flex plate to the Cummins crankshaft.

Snag #2 is that Ford puts the starter on the passenger side and I hate it there. Dodge puts it on the driver's side where I like it, but with the ZF6 that meant notching the transmission bellhousing to put it there, so that the starter nose didn't interfere with the bellhousing.

The 6R140 bellhousing is much larger in diameter than the ZF6, where the starter mounts, but I think it would still require a bit of a notch in order to accomodate the starter.

The problem with notching the transmission bellhousing is that once you notch it, you pretty much own it. It can never be used as a core in the future and pretty much nobody wants to buy it if you ever want to sell it. Decisions, decisions.

I really want to keep the starter on the driver's side, especially because I'll have twin turbos and their piping and the heat from their piping on the passenger side.

So the low down on the adapter plate is that it isn't a bit deal other than the normal adapter plate detail stuff that needs to attended to. The flex plate is a bigger deal, but no bigger than it would be with any other transmission.

Sorry for being so wordy. I'm out of town working on a project and things are really slow, so I have lots of spare time. Thus I am posting in a rambling manner.

*For those that aren't aware, the ZF6 bellhousing is different for the 6.4, as is the transmission itself.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:44 AM
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Before anyone asks, the stock Cummins SAE2 bellhousing adapter will not work, at least not without some modifications and adjustments.

First off, it won't accomodate the alignment dowels on the 6R140. And it also won't match the bolt outside the pattern where the starter mounts.

And then there is the depth issue.

The Cummins SAE #2 bellhousing adapter is about 4 inches thick. The 6R140 setup requires that the flex plate stick out 1 5/16" past the adapter plate. This means the Cummins SAE #2 flexplate (because only it will work with the starter placement in the SAE #2 bellhousing) would need about a 4" spacer between it and the crankshaft.

Another thing about the Cummins SAE2 bellhousing is that it has ears on it for the engine mounts on some applications. I suspect the location of the ear on the passenger side is exactly where the downpipe from my primary (upper) turbo is going to go. The ears don't protrude very far, but they are in that area and I suspect its going to be pretty tight right in that area the way it is.

The other issue with a thick adapter like that is that it increases the length of the engine/transmission assembly from fan to output flange. The Cummins 6.7 is already a bit longer than the Ford 6.4. Anything I can do to keep that assembly as close to stock length as possible makes the fitment of the transmission rear mount and the driveshaft mods easier later on.

One of the reasons I built my own adapter plate for my 5.9 CR swap was that the way I designed things it only had to be 5/16" thick.

That allowed me to run the stock Cummins fan assembly, which provides excellent cooling and keep the ZF6 in nearly its stock location.

This meant I didn't have trouble with the gear shift placement in the stock shifter hole in the cab floor and I was able to use the stock cross member location with a slight reaming of the holes. I did, however, have to shorten the driveshaft, which aside from the hassle is not a big deal.

When I add up all these issues and add in the cost of buying the SAE#2 bellhousing and the Cummins SAE2 flexplate and then machining that adapter and machining the flexplate itself, its not worth it.

I'll talk about the transfer case after I do some testing.

I can't wait to get back home and actually work on something. I've spent the last several months reading and figuring this stuff out. I'm tired of doing that. I'm dying to build stuff.

Last edited by me2; 05-17-2012 at 01:54 AM.
  #33  
Old 05-17-2012, 09:32 AM
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More waiting, so therefore more rambling.

Turbos

Why are you building a 600 HP engine for towing ? You'll never need that much power !

I have 325/610 in my old truck right now.

First off, 610 ftlbs isn't enough torque for towing our trailer at 1650 RPM, which is where it runs at 60 MPH in OD with 3.73 gears and 20 inch wheels.

One can argue that is a gearing problem and there is some truth to that. However, I used to run stock 16" wheels on my old truck, which put the engine speed at about 1750 RPM at 60 MPH and it wasn't much better.

Our trailer is 35 feet long, 11 feet high and weighs 14K. And it has a bunch of stuff on the roof. It takes about 75% of full throttle from my 325/610 to pull it in OD at 65 MPH in flat, still conditions. Throw in a 20 MPH headwind and/or a slight grade and the engine is maxed out, stuggling to maintain speed.

It is easy enough to drop a gear into direct, but then the engine is reving 2500 RPM all day where its noisier and uses a lot more fuel. Its not very relaxing. And it still doesn't seem to have a lot of extra power. Even in direct, passing another vehicle on a 2 lane highway is a very slow, dangerous process.

And even when gearing isn't an issue, there are mountain passes that have my old truck down in 2nd gear wound out at 2700 RPM doing 30 MPH.

So I definitely need more power and torque than 325/610. The question then becomes "How much ?"

The next step up in a stock Cummins engine is 350/800 from the new HO Dodge 6.7 engine. I like the 800 ftlbs part, but it doesn't seem like a huge improvement over 610 ftlbs and likewise 350HP over 325HP. It would tow better, but without better gearing, I don't think its enough of an improvement.

So then I started looking at gearing. And the problem is that with most transmissions, when you juggle the rearend and transmission OD gear ratios so that they are good for towing, the engine speed is plain wrong for running emtpy. This is my biggest gripe with all the pickup truck transmissions except the 68RFE and the 6R140, which I think have excellent gear ratios.

So the solution to my towing power issue is twofold.

First, use a transmission with better gearing. By better gearing, I came to the conclusion it needs to be double overdrive with a towing OD gear in the 0.8x range and a cruising OD gear in the 0.6x range. Of all the available transmissions, only the 6R140 and the 68RFE have those ratios. All the others have OD ratios in the low 0.7x range.

I chose the 6R140 because the 68RFE has trouble handling the sort of torque and power I want from my setup.

The second part of the solution is to build a torque/power monster engine so that it pulls well even when the gearing isn't perfect.

Mack used to do this with their highway trucks and still does to some extent. For a while, while everyone else was building trucks with 13 and 18 speed transmissions, Mack was building trucks with torque monster engines and 8 or 10 speed transmissions.

Because I want an off the shelf pickup truck transmission and nothing exotic like a RTOO13, I need an engine that has a wide, torquey powerband like Mack did. I need an engine that pulls good at 1600 and 2600 RPM and everywhere in between. So I have 610 ftlbs right now. Something in the 1000-1200 ftlb range would probably be perfect. Instead of going over that pass at 30 MPH, wound out in 2nd gear, I could now go over at 45 or 50 MPH, at a reasonable engine speed.

So that brings me to the Cummins 6.7, which can certainly be built for monster torque/power.

But it needs more air to do so. That is where twin turbos come in.

And it needs better fueling and engine control. That is where EFI Live comes in.

To be continued.

Last edited by me2; 05-17-2012 at 09:43 AM.
  #34  
Old 05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
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I am curious why your wheel size is related to your gear ratios?

20" or 16" wheels don't make any difference if the tires are the same diameter.

I really liked my 6.4 and a couple ******* tuned 6.4s I drove were monsters. For the cash outlay I would have ******d it, ******* tuned it, kept some cash in the bank for repairs and bought the wife something pretty instead.

Carry on.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mines4x4 View Post
I am curious why your wheel size is related to your gear ratios?

20" or 16" wheels don't make any difference if the tires are the same diameter.
275/65/R20s are 605 revs per mile.
265/75/R16s are 650 revs per mile.
There is about an 8% difference in effective gearing between the two.

Quote:
I really liked my 6.4 and a couple ******* tuned 6.4s I drove were monsters. For the cash outlay I would have ******d it, ******* tuned it, kept some cash in the bank for repairs and bought the wife something pretty instead.
I am not going to get into a debate about whether one should keep a 6.4 or swap it out. Obviously I decided to do the later. Each to his own.
  #36  
Old 05-18-2012, 12:06 AM
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Good luck man. I wanna see a video when its done!!
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  #37  
Old 05-18-2012, 05:18 AM
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Subed!!! Very col read an a very well thought out plan
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  #38  
Old 05-18-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
More waiting, so therefore more rambling.

Turbos

Why are you building a 600 HP engine for towing ? You'll never need that much power !

I have 325/610 in my old truck right now.

First off, 610 ftlbs isn't enough torque for towing our trailer at 1650 RPM, which is where it runs at 60 MPH in OD with 3.73 gears and 20 inch wheels.

One can argue that is a gearing problem and there is some truth to that. However, I used to run stock 16" wheels on my old truck, which put the engine speed at about 1750 RPM at 60 MPH and it wasn't much better.

Our trailer is 35 feet long, 11 feet high and weighs 14K. And it has a bunch of stuff on the roof. It takes about 75% of full throttle from my 325/610 to pull it in OD at 65 MPH in flat, still conditions. Throw in a 20 MPH headwind and/or a slight grade and the engine is maxed out, stuggling to maintain speed.

It is easy enough to drop a gear into direct, but then the engine is reving 2500 RPM all day where its noisier and uses a lot more fuel. Its not very relaxing. And it still doesn't seem to have a lot of extra power. Even in direct, passing another vehicle on a 2 lane highway is a very slow, dangerous process.

And even when gearing isn't an issue, there are mountain passes that have my old truck down in 2nd gear wound out at 2700 RPM doing 30 MPH.

So I definitely need more power and torque than 325/610. The question then becomes "How much ?"

The next step up in a stock Cummins engine is 350/800 from the new HO Dodge 6.7 engine. I like the 800 ftlbs part, but it doesn't seem like a huge improvement over 610 ftlbs and likewise 350HP over 325HP. It would tow better, but without better gearing, I don't think its enough of an improvement.

So then I started looking at gearing. And the problem is that with most transmissions, when you juggle the rearend and transmission OD gear ratios so that they are good for towing, the engine speed is plain wrong for running emtpy. This is my biggest gripe with all the pickup truck transmissions except the 68RFE and the 6R140, which I think have excellent gear ratios.

So the solution to my towing power issue is twofold.

First, use a transmission with better gearing. By better gearing, I came to the conclusion it needs to be double overdrive with a towing OD gear in the 0.8x range and a cruising OD gear in the 0.6x range. Of all the available transmissions, only the 6R140 and the 68RFE have those ratios. All the others have OD ratios in the low 0.7x range.

I chose the 6R140 because the 68RFE has trouble handling the sort of torque and power I want from my setup.

The second part of the solution is to build a torque/power monster engine so that it pulls well even when the gearing isn't perfect.

Mack used to do this with their highway trucks and still does to some extent. For a while, while everyone else was building trucks with 13 and 18 speed transmissions, Mack was building trucks with torque monster engines and 8 or 10 speed transmissions.

Because I want an off the shelf pickup truck transmission and nothing exotic like a RTOO13, I need an engine that has a wide, torquey powerband like Mack did. I need an engine that pulls good at 1600 and 2600 RPM and everywhere in between. So I have 610 ftlbs right now. Something in the 1000-1200 ftlb range would probably be perfect. Instead of going over that pass at 30 MPH, wound out in 2nd gear, I could now go over at 45 or 50 MPH, at a reasonable engine speed.

So that brings me to the Cummins 6.7, which can certainly be built for monster torque/power.

But it needs more air to do so. That is where twin turbos come in.

And it needs better fueling and engine control. That is where EFI Live comes in.

To be continued.
This is so cool to read and shows me that you realy know what towing is about. I am in the same boat with my 35 ft. Titanium 5er.
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  #39  
Old 05-18-2012, 09:28 AM
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Looks pretty cool man, keep the updates comming. Pictures are always a good/welcomed addition as well!
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:00 PM
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Very interested in this thread, you obviously have the brains to get this project done. Awesome!!!
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  #41  
Old 05-19-2012, 10:55 PM
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Love it when people travel down unmarked paths. Good luck with this awesome project!
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  #42  
Old 05-22-2012, 11:53 AM
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Looking forward to seeing how you like the truck when it's done. Keep up the good work.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:45 PM
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I'm finally back home, after 8 days. I put another 1500 miles on my 08. I guess that is what I bought it for. Its a great truck.

I'm now about a week behind where I thought I'd be on this project. I hope to be back in the shop finishing up the engine stand later today. After that the engine gets stripped so that I can install the rods block. I need to pull a piston pin ASAP in order for the machine shop to fit the new rod bushings.

Turbos

Warning. You are about to enter the boring zone.

I'm looking for 600 HP. Actually what I am really looking for is an engine
with 1000 to 1200 ftlbs of torque, between 1600 and 2600+ RPM, and that just happens to be 600 HP.

1200 ftlbs @ 2750 RPM = 628 HP.
1200 ftlbs @ 1600 RPM = 365 HP, which is more than my 5.9CR makes at 3,000 RPM !

Anyway, I'm looking for a broad, torquey powerband. 1600 to 2600RPM+.

Lets put some numbers to this.

Fuel consumption (lbs/hr) = power x BSFC.

600 HP x 0.4 lbs/HP Hr = 240 pound of fuel per hour

What is BSFC ? http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...xzwPtVIxvHk6gg

Where did I get 0.4 lbs/HP HR from ? a) Its a bit of a wild a$$ guess. b) I have a Cummins Competitive Engine handbook from back in the 80s and c) I calculated it from my 6.7 dataplate and then added a fudge factor.

Here is the data plate from my 6.7



It says my 6.7 outputs 350 HP at 3013 RPM with 132 mm^3 injections.

3013 *6 /2 * 132 *60 = 71.6 liters per hour

/ 3.78 l/gallon * 7 pounds per gallon = 132.6 pounds per hour.

132.6 / 350 = 0.379 lbs/ HP Hr

Lets not forget that is with EGR operating and *** injections occuring.

I used 0.4 lbs per HP HR for easy calculation. In reality, there are a whole host of factors at play here, including timing, having enough air to burn the fuel, etc. 0.4 might not be exactly right, but if the engine isn't smoking and the EGTs are within reason, its probably not that far out.

So lets assume a BSFC of 0.4. If that is true, my engine will consume 240 pounds of fuel an hour. Diesel weighs 7 pounds per gallon, so that is 34 GPH. If the engine needed all 600 HP to pull the trailer at 68 MPH, the truck would get 2 MPG.

A diesel engine needs an air fuel ratio of about 19:1 to burn cleanly and keep EGTs under control. Lets assume an AFR of 20:1. Google "diesel air fuel ratio" if you have questions about this.

240 pounds of fuel per hour x 20 lbs of air per pound of fuel = 4800 pounds of air per hour.

4800 lbs per hour /60 = 80 pounds per minute.

So my 600 HP engine is going to need about 80 pounds of air a minute to run cleanly and cool.

The stock HE351VE is maxed out at about 50 pounds per hour.

An HE451VE, which I have on the shelf, will supply 80 pounds per hour, but
a) its on the edge of its compressor map and b) it doesn't have enough pressure, which I'll get to in a bit.

After a bunch of looking around, I selected a BW S475, specifically, part number 171702. They are available for sale new for less than $800.

Here is its compressor map.


Its in the meat of its map at 80 lbs/min, which is what I want.

When turbos get to the edge of their map, their efficiency drops, meaning the air they produce is very hot. I want a turbo setup that is loafing, not one that is straining.

Butt check. This turbo is standard issue on Detroit Diesel Series 60 14 liter engines, rated at 550 HP.

So why do I need twin turbo chargers ?

Lets back up.

What I am basically trying to do is get big bore diesel power out of a 6.7 liter engine. To do that, I need to get as much air into my 6.7 as what goes into a big bore engine.

DD S60 airflow.

Air flow for a 14L S60 turning 2,000 RPM at 30 pounds of boost is

14 L x 2,000 RPM/2 x PR of 3 = 42,000 litres per minute.

PR = pressure ratio. A PR of 3 is about 30 pounds of boost.

To get the same air flow through my 6.7, I need more RPMs and a higher PR.

6.7 L x 3,000 RPM/2 x PR of 4.5 = about 45,000 liters per minute.

Same air flow. Same power potential. Different torque, because one is reving 2,000 RPM and the other is reving at 3,000 RPM.

A PR of 4.5 = 52.5 PSI of boost.

If you look at the S475 compressor map, it will deliver air at a PR of 4.5 only in the upper portion of its map and even then its straining. It will surge at that pressure at lower flow rates (RPMs).

My engine needs 1200 ftlbs across as much of the powerband as possible.

Since the S60 flows twice as much air as the 6.7 everywhere, but my 6.7 is turning only about 50% more RPM everywhere, the 6.7 needs an extra 50% boost everywhere as well to get the same air flow. That means my turbo setup must be capable of delivering 40+ PSI of boost everywhere across the powerband, preferably a full 52.5 PSI. As far as I know, a compound turbo setup is the only way to accomplish this.

I'm not pretending that my 6.7 is any sort of a substitute for a DD S60. It should make the same power as one, intermitently, but that is where the simularities end. The Cummins 6.7 XT ISB is rated for a 33K GCWR in RVs.

Both the HE351VE and the S475 will be loafing in a compound setup at 50 PSI, though things will be interesting down at 1600 RPM.

Turbo Setup

When I came to the conclusion that I needed twin turbochargers to achieve the air flow for the power and torque I was shooting for, the question became "how ?".

Being on a budget and wanting to keep things simple, and wanting to retain the exhaust brake, I'll be using the stock HE351VE turbocharger on the stock manifold in the stock location as the secondary charger.

I'll be mounting the S475 on top of the stock turbocharger as the primary.

I will not be waste gating the HE351VE, at least not initially. I want to see how it does in a compound setup first.

I'll be fabbing up the hot and cold pipes for this setup before the engine goes into the truck.

A lot of people on diesel sites already know this turbo stuff. I didn't, so I wrote it up. I hope I didn't bore anyone to death. I'll get back to actually building things shortly.

As far as the EFI Live side of things goes, I'll comment on that once I start tuning the engine, after its running in the truck with stock power.

Stay tuned.

Last edited by me2; 05-22-2012 at 01:10 PM.
  #44  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:21 PM
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It turns out that if I am going to replace the rods in my engine, I need a real engine stand.

Had I not chosen to replace the rods, I would have worked on the engine while it was sitting in a wooden cradle, similar to this. That is what I did with my first swap.



The cradle is something I threw together with some scrap wood. The blocking holds the engine up on the pan bolts. The engine isn't at the right height, but providing you don't have to do anything to the pan, it works.

However, when one changes the rods, the pan must be removed so that one can get to the rod caps. Theoretically one could do this with the engine hanging from a shop hoist, but I don't think that is a very safe or convenient way to do it.

So the search began for an engine stand.

Its difficult to find a stand for the Cummins 5.9/6.7 engines because most stands are built for a typical V8 engine and the 5.9/6.7s are way longer and heavier than a typical V8 engine.

I spoke with several people who had worked on a 5.9/6.7 on a stand. The general consensous was that all but the heaviest automotive stands were downright dangerous and only the largest automotive type stands, with reinforcing straps on the main post, were suitable for working on a Cummins.

With this in mind and a little more research, I settled on wanting a stand like this one.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...5241_200485241

However, none of the retailers in my area had such a stand. After a while I located a stand very similar to that one, albeit without the tool tray and the screw down feet. However, the one I got folds up for storage, something that is very important to me because my shop is tiny.

I paid $100 for it because its missing a few pieces and the paint job isn't up to snuff.



There isn't much to these stands. I was honestly going to build my own from scratch, but couldn't justify the effort for the few hours I am going to need it for this build.

Having looked at several high end commercial stands while doing all this, there was no way I am going to leave the stand as I bought it.

For starters, I am not going to mount my engine on the stand at the back of the block. A large part of my work on my engine involves building the adapter plate. I thus need access to the flywheel end of the engine and thus I'll be mounting my engine from the side using the engine mount bolts. I'm not alone in doing this. I've seen 2 engine build threads where others did this as well.

The next thing that needs to be addressed is the stability of the stand. The footprint on my stand was 36x36. Judging by the size of the commercial ($5K) stands, that isn't large enough. So I increasee the width of the platform wheels by driving 2x2x1/4 wall square tubing into the existing wheel mount tube. This increases the rear width from 20 inches (!) to 48 inches.



I'll be adding an extension to the front legs as well, so that the overall footprint is 48x48. That should greatly increase the stability.

Another thing I got from talking to people is that these engines are pretty hard to rotate.

Ideally, one would be using a stand like this one, with a higher weight rating and a larger footprint.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...9940_200349940

To make mine easier to rotate, I'll be making my mount assembly so that the center of rotation is closer to the center of the block. And I'll be using a long pipe to help rotate the engine.

I'm also mounting larger wheels on the stand so that it rolls better. I find engine hoists and engine stands to be very prone to tipping over because their wheels are too small, they roll hard and they skid on any little bit of debris, making them prone to trip up the stand itself.

Another thing I had to check was that I could load the engine onto the stand using the (new) shop crane. It looks trivial in this picture, but it won't be once the legs are extended and connected together.


I hope to have the stand done tomorrow, so that I can I tear the engine apart on the weekend.

In other news, the Ford harness for the transmission finally arrived. It took several tries to get it. It should have been trivial, but it wasn't.

I had no such luck with the hot pipe materials, however. The outlet flange for the HE351VE did not fit. Another one has been ordered.

Last edited by me2; 05-24-2012 at 08:25 PM.
  #45  
Old 05-25-2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
600/1200 sounds awesome, but in my opinion it is too much strain for 6.7 liters to be durable and reliable.
Fair enough. You might be entirely correct. We'll find out.

Cummins ships the 6.7 as the ISB-XT rated at 360/800 at a governed speed of 2600 RPM for use in 20,000 pound motorhomes operating to a GCWR of 33K. Cummins warranties the engine in this application for 100,000 miles, with optional coverage to much more.

http://cumminsengines.com/every/appl...ISB67_MH.page?

The ISB-XT is doing that with the 20% EGR, ***, a stock HE351VE and cracked cap connecting rods. With a 15,000 mile/500 hour oil change interval at 20K pounds, though the XT does have a larger oil pan than the Dodge ISB.

My engine will be ******d, twin turbod and has 24V machined split connecting rods.

80% of the time it will be pushing an 8500 pound pickup truck and the other 20% of the time it will be loaded to a GCWR of about 22K.

Will my 6.7 take that kind of punishment ? We'll find out.

Back to the task at hand.

Last edited by me2; 05-25-2012 at 10:14 AM.
  #46  
Old 05-25-2012, 05:38 PM
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Gonnavbe an awesome build.
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  #47  
Old 05-25-2012, 08:56 PM
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Thanks for the supportive comments.

I started the day cutting and drilling various mounting plates.



I then lengthend the legs.



I cut the new cross member.



BTW, that is the saw that I replaced the gear box bearing in. It works great again. My family bought it in 1988. Its cut a bit of steel since then !

Then I started welding things together.



This is what I am welding with these days. For those not familiar, its an Everlast PP256. (TIG, stick, plasma.) It works great. I'll talk about it more another time.

Next to it is an Everlast Power Plasma 80. I haven't used it yet because I haven't plumbed in the air tank and dryer. But I did buy all the fittings to do so yesterday. I hope to use it tomorrow



A bit more drilling. I know my mill is disgustingly dirty.



A bit of bolting. And we have an assembled engine stand.





The base is now 48 x 48. You can see how big the old base was by where the yellow steel ends. That is where the wheels would have mounted, front and back.

The wheels are 4 inch and roll nicely. They are rated for 450 pounds each.

I might have to raise the center post yet. I'm also not happy with the angle it sits at. I think its useable for now.

The stand still folds up. To do so, one unbolts the front cross member and sets it aside and then pulls the pins on the front legs. They then fold up beside the center post.

I have about $200 in this stand now. As far as I know, its more stable than all the other stands out there, except for the $7500 OTC model.

I know its going to be a pain stepping (tripping) over the front bar all the time. I might put a bit of a platform on the front to make it better. I'll see how it is when I use it.

When I was rebuilding things, I thought about not using the front bar and widening the stance of the legs and making them go straight out. I think it would have taken a lot more fabricating to make that work and be as strong and still fold.

I know I said that I would only be using it for my 6.7. But that isn't entirely true. I am probably going to do the rods and head gasket in my 5.9 and I'll probably rebuild my 5R110 too, so this won't be the last project I'll be using it for.

Anyway, its done.

Tomorrow I'll start on the engine mount for the 6.7. As soon as that is done, I'll start tearing down my 6.7.

In other news, I got a bunch of parts from Cummins today. And they are all parts that I want, versus what I got last time I ordered. I'll post that up with prices, pictures and part numbers some day when I am bored and not working in the shop.

Edit. It feels great to (finally) be working on something. Its been a long journey to get to this point.

I'm a bit peaved that this project isn't done already. I bought the truck and engine in November. I was hoping to do it in April, but it took way longer to figure things out and get various bits and pieces to even start the project. Its only in the last couple weeks that everything started coming together such that I knew it was doable.

BTW, I picked the engine up the day after I bought the truck. The swap was planned as part of the purchase. Although I certainly didn't have the transmission selected or figured out. That didn't happen until late January and is a major reason why things are behind schedule.


Last edited by me2; 05-25-2012 at 09:23 PM.
  #48  
Old 05-27-2012, 01:09 PM
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I started on the engine mount for the engine stand.

I'm building this mount so that the engine can be mounted from the side, so it more stable and so that I have access to the flywheel to work on the adapter plate and flexplate.





The extra pieces are the wheel mounting plates that go on the engine hoist. One of the new wheels is visible in the upper right hand corner.



This is what it will look like when its done.


The engine stand and engine stand mount just need a couple hours of welding to be ready to use.

The reason for changing the wheels on the engine hoist were that a) it will roll better, especially when there is debris on the floor, b) with the mounts the engine hoist legs fit under the engine stand so that I don't have to take it apart to pickup or drop off the engine and c) with the new mounts it increases the stance of the engine hoist a bit. About 16" in the back and 6 inches longer and 4 inches wider in the front.

As you can probably tell, I'm kind of paranoid and fed up with using engine hoists that don't roll well and constantly want to tip over.

Last edited by me2; 05-27-2012 at 01:13 PM.
  #49  
Old 05-27-2012, 02:32 PM
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It turns out that I am not the only one that is putting a Cummins 6.7 into a Superduty these days. Mr. Project20V on PowerstrokeNation is as well.

He is a couple steps ahead of me and a great help with some of the details that naturally arise in doing a swap like this.

His thread is here.
http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/...d.php?t=132705
  #50  
Old 05-27-2012, 02:51 PM
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This is so cool! Good luck!
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  #51  
Old 05-27-2012, 08:54 PM
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Cummins 6.7 ECMs.

Caveat. I am not an expert on this topic. I'm only sharing what I have learned.

Dates

When talking about ECM dates, there are at least 4 dates to be aware of. Maybe 5.

Engine Build Date. This is the date Cummins built the engine. Not generally used, but once in a while a partsman will ask for it. This date is on the engine.

Engine Warranty Date. This date is viewable in Quickserve. I suspect that Chrysler tells Cummins when the truck is sold and they tag this date as that for warranty purposes.

Truck Build Date. This is the date that Dodge built the truck. Note that the engine build date and the truck build date are not the same. The Dodge partsman wants the truck build date, but the Cummins partsman sometimes wants the engine build date. A Dodge parts man can give you the truck build date from the truck VIN. If he wants to.

Wreckers like to use truck build date.

Truck Model Year. I don't know how to explain this, but you guys know what I mean by it. An 08 MY truck generally starts selling in mid to late 07.

All these dates are different and when someone starts throwing around a date, you need to know which one they are referencing. Dodge and Cummins generally get around this issue by using VIN and Engine Serial Number (ESN) respectively, but there are exceptions and everyone else has their own system.

So when someone says they have an 08 6.7, it could mean
Cummins built it in 08.
It came from a Dodge truck that was built in 08.
It came from a 08 model year Dodge truck.
It shipped to the customer in 08.

There is one other applicable date, that being the emissions certification date.

6.7 ECMs.

Thus far there are two versions of the Dodge 6.7 engine.

The first was is commonly referred to as the 07.5 to 09.5. When people say this, they are referring to MY. The second version is commonly referred to as 09.5+ or 09.5-11.

I know of the following major differences between the two engines.

1) The later engines use different rods. Still cracked cap though.
2) The later engines use a different ECM
3) The later engines use different injectors
4) The later engines have a port on the turbocharger to allow the VGT vanes to be flushed

There might be more differences.

I don't know when the exact break in production occured (ESN or date) or if it all happened at once or if the changes were made one at a time. I expect that the ECM and injector changes went hand in hand, but I have no proof.

There is probably a Dodge document somewhere that lists an ESN break associated with the 09.5 engines, but I don't have any good Dodge connections and I haven't pursued it.

Why do we care about this ?

I'm guessing that most of us are probably going to use EFI Live to program the ECM in our swap engine. Turning off various error codes that aren't applicable, turning off the SKIM functionality, changing the transmission type, changing the tire size, etc.

FWIW, its not absolutely necessary to use EFI Live to do this, but it is one heck of a lot easier than trying to do it at the dealer. Don't believe me ? Buy an ECM and ask your local Dodge dealer to program it for a manual transmission, no skim and oversized tires. Even if you can give him the VIN number of a truck with those features and even if you wire up a bench harness, they will probably refuse to do it.

It turns out, as of this writing, that EFI Live is capable of programming the 07.5 to 09.5 ECMs and not capable of programming the 09.5+ ECMs. So at this time if you want to use EFI Live to handle some of the ECM issues, you need to use an 07.5 to 09.5 ECM.

Cummins has a system for naming their ECMs aside from the model years of their customer's vehicle. Actually if we wanted to get further into this we'd talk about CPL numbers, but for right now lets leave it at the ECM level.

The 07.5 to 09.5 ECM is a CM2100.

The 09.5 to present ECM is a CM2200.

However, its not quite that simple. If you take an ESN and go into quickserve, they might call it a CM2100 in one section and a CM2150 in another section. I have no idea what the differences are or why.

But for the purpose of this discussion, lets stick to CM2100 and CM2200.

EFI Live can program the CM2100 ECMs but it cannot program the CM2200 ECMs.

Here are the CM2100 (left) and CM2200(right) ECMs side by side.



They look dramatically different and use different connectors. In the 09.5+ trucks the ECM controls the automatic transmission. In the pre 09.5 trucks, the "chassis controller" or whatever they call it on the diesel trucks controls the transmission.

Here is a picture of them separately. Notice that the ECM model is printed plainly on the tag as is the ESN that the ECM was originally programmed for.





The ECM mounting bolt pattern is the same for both ECMs. Either will bolt into place of the other.

Continued in part 2.
  #52  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:24 PM
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Cummins engine are stand alone with their ECMs. Meaning that no external computer is needed to control the engine. A Dodge Cummins ECM might control something external to itself like a transmission, but everything needed to control the engine itself is in the ECM.

ECMs have a variety of inputs and outputs, some from the engine and some from the chassis. For whatever reason, the ECMs on the electronic ISB common rail engines have 2 connectors.

In older ECMs, (MY05, for example) the engine and chassis inputs and outputs were spread over both connectors. What happened then was that the wiring harness for the engine and the chassis were intertwined.

On a model 05 MY 5.9CR, for example, the engine harness has both connectors wired in and there is a plug on the engine harness for all the chassis stuff. (accelerator pedal, cruise control inputs, brake inputs, etc.) This means that every OEM (truck builder) needs a different harness, specific to their chassis requirements.

On the Dodge 05MY engines, for example, the harness for an auto engine is different from a manual transmission and the chassis connections came out of connector C130, which was part of the harness.

With the CM2100 and CM2200 ECMs, Cummins got smart. They put all the engine inputs/outputs on one connector and all the chassis inputs/outputs on another connector. Thus each ECM has an engine connector and a chassis connector.

This means that the engine harness only connects to the engine connector and that all the engine harnesses (within reason) are the same. There is no auto or manual specific harness anymore.

The OEM then makes whatever connections they want directly to the chassis connector, which is sometimes called the OEM connector.

The "problem" with this is that there is no longer a C130 in the engine harness to wire into. Anyone swapping a Cummins 6.7 needs to wire in just like Dodge and Freightliner do, via the OEM connector.

Here is a CM2100 ECM with the engine wiring harness connected.



Notice that the OEM connector is unused at this point.

Here is a CM2200 ECM with the engine wiring harness connected. Notice that its an entirely different connector.



The good news is that Cummins will sell a CM2100 OEM connectors directly to the customer. It only took me 3 tries and 2 months to get one ! Here it is.



Here is the other side of it.



Here are the pins for it and the tool used to extract them.







In case these images ever disappear, the connector part number is 4919396, the pin part number is 0462-201-20141.

I don't have a part number for the pin tool. My Cummins dealer just gave them to me.

There are two different pins that differ only in the size of wire they are meant for. These pins are the bigger ones.

These pins are meant to crimp with a crimp tool. My dealer has one. They tell me I might be able to buy one. I didn't try. I'll be soldering my wires to the pins.

The connector is about $60. I forget how much the pins were.

Here is a CM2100 with the OEM connector installed.



I have not tried to wire mine yet, so I cannot comment on how hard or easy it is.

The problem with finding that connector was that Quickserve does not list OEM connectors for an ESN, and most partsman cannot find anything that is not associated with an ESN.

Cummins does, however, make harness repair kits and this connector happened to be available as a repair kit. However, when my partsman attempted to get a harness repair connector for my ESN, the wrong one arrived. It looked correct but was 50 pin instead of 60 pin.

Theoretically, one should be able to get one of these connectors from any truck manufacturer that uses the engine. Freightliner, Thomas bus, Ford, etc. I did not try any of them.

There are also variations of this connector. If you look at the ECM picture above with both connectors installed, they look identical. However, they are not. Each connector is keyed so that you cannot install the engine connector into the OEM port, for example.

If a partsman ever asks, the engine connector for a CM2100 is keyed 5 and the OEM connector is keyed 6. If you look closely at the key in either connector, it has a little 5 or 6 by the key.

I have not tried to find the OEM connector for a CM2200 ECM.

Do not clean ECMs or connectors or wiring harnesses with brake cleaner. It is corrosive to a lot of things and will wreck whatever it touches over time.

Last edited by me2; 05-27-2012 at 09:48 PM.
  #53  
Old 05-27-2012, 09:35 PM
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My ECM Situation

I have an 09.5 engine. I need to use EFI Live to adjust a few thing in the ECM I'm using. Unless I want to wait until EFI Live does a release for the 09.5+ (CM2200) engines, I needed to convert my engine to an 07.5 to 09.5 (CM2100) harness and ECM.

The CM2100 and CM2200 harnesses appear to be the same with the exception of the ECM connections. Caveat. I have not plugged every sensor on my 09.5+ engine into my CM2100 harness, nor have I run my engine yet. But I have been through both the engine I own and the engine my CM2100 ECM came from and everything looks like its plug and play. Except the injectors... I'll get to that in a bit.

Before I forget, be sure to get the ESN for every Cummins part you ever buy because its EXTREMELY handy to use to cross check that things fit between engines. I have the ESN for my engine, the CM2200 ECM and wiring harness, the CM2100 ECM and wiring harness and the rods that I am putting in my 6.7.

And if you buy an engine, be sure to get the VIN for the truck it came from as well.

Injectors.

The 09.5+ injectors are different from the pre 09.5 injectors. How, I don't know. What I do know is that the CM2100 and CM2200 ECMs need to be/should be programmed with the data for every injector installed in the engine.

Every 6.7 injector has a tag on it with a code that represents some physical attributes for the injector. The ECM needs this information in order to be able to properly fire the injector. EFI Live has stated that they are adding functionality to allow users to input the injector codes for an engine.

What I am hoping is that the CM2100 ECM is able to use the injector data from the 09.5 injectors. I don't think the injector data does anything more than give the ECM trim data for fuel output, but I am guessing here. I suspect that the CM2100 ECM will run my 09.5 engine fine without injector code data, but I'm guessing here as well and I'm pretty sure it will run it better with the injector code data.

I'll leave the ECM stuff at that for now. I'm sure I've forgotten something and there are errors, but I'll add/correct that in a later post.
  #54  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:28 AM
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Sorry about the grammar and spelling in the above posts. I didn't proof read them before posting and now I can't go back and fix them.

A couple other things while they are on my mind.

Don't ever paint an ECM. The enclosure acts as a heat sink for the electronics inside and is made of an aluminum alloy for its heat transfer properties. If you paint it, it insulates the enclosure resulting in higher temperature for the electronics.

The CM2100 ECM connectors have a bolt to hold them in place. Do not ever over tighten or force that bolt. If you do, it can spin the nut inside the case and then you have to take the ECM apart, which is not a trivial thing to do without wrecking the electronics.
  #55  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:42 AM
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No one here cares what you misspell. We all are too busy wishing we had the time and resources to tackle something similar

Looks fantastic!!!
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  #56  
Old 05-28-2012, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neverkickn View Post
We all are too busy wishing we had the time and resources to tackle something similar.
That is funny !

Did you know I am doing this project in the 24x24 garage in my back yard ?

The 240VAC welder power feed is sourced from where they prepped the house for a hot tub !

My shop has 8 foot ceilings ! I cannot raise my engine hoist up or I hit the lights.

I wish I had some time and resources to work on this project !

Last edited by me2; 05-28-2012 at 11:22 AM.
  #57  
Old 05-28-2012, 11:07 AM
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One Cummins engine stand adapter complete.



In case its not obvious, the 2x2 goes completely through the 2x6 and is welded on the other side too.

Don't let anyone tell you that "cheap, inferior Chinese crap" welders are no good.

All these welds were done with an Everlast PowerPro 256. I welded with a 300 pound Miller DialArc 250 for 24 years. I though it was the best welder ever.

The PP256 seriously kicks its butt. Its an awesome arc welder.

I love the way the PP256 starts the arc with 7014 rods. I hate welding 7018 rods. My welds usually look terrible. The PP256 has excellent arc stability and 7018s weld like butter.

I am continually amazed at how well the PP256 welds.

I have a Power Arc 300 on order.






Last edited by me2; 05-28-2012 at 11:21 AM.
  #58  
Old 05-28-2012, 03:56 PM
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Next up was welding the new wheel mounting plates onto the engine crane.



Using my fancy high tech welding positioning system. Someday I want to have a nice welding table !



And its about time to invest in a new weld surface preparation tool !



Another crappy Power Pro 256 weld. I don't know if I can live with this thing because when the weld isn 't up to spec, I don't have anything to blame it on.

It welds beautifully. Very smooth. In real life, this weld looks like it was made with a MIG welder.



A new wheel mounted up.


The finished products. Finally.



The engine hoist rolls right underneath the engine stand so that there is no problem using the hoist to put the engine on the stand.

The engine mount adapter has been placed on the engine stand post. It lowers the engine down 5 inches from the center of the pivot, closer to the center of the engine's mass, so its easier to rotate.

They both roll real nicely, which is important to me.

This little side project took a bit of time and effort, but its better than fighting with bad equipment and spending a few days injured because there was an incident. I don't do projects unless I can do them safely.

A few more images.







Wife willing, I'll start tearing into the engine tonight. Finally.

Last edited by me2; 05-28-2012 at 04:07 PM.
  #59  
Old 05-28-2012, 04:39 PM
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I'm getting questions about the turbo stuff and how I arrived at my HP estimation.

I don't have time to go into detail right now, but here is a link to a calculator set up with my numbers in it.

My data.

If you are interested, you can play around with the various factors and see what results.

I did not use this calculator to get my numbers. I used a spreadsheet. The two give very similar results, which I take as a positive sign.

Obviously, I made a few assumptions to get there, namely intercooler efficiency, air fuel ratio and BSFC.

These assumptions may or may not be accurate. Rather than debate them, I want to get my truck running and measure what it does in the real world.

The calculator is set up for a single turbo. You can simulate twin (compound) turbos by using the overall boost pressure and the combined efficiency for the pair.

The biggest fear I have is that the turbos are going to overload the intercooler as far as cooling the charge goes. Note that at 40 PSI of boost the temperature out of the turbo is estimated to be 199C, which is 390F. And that is with a turbo at 75% efficiency.

Should that be the case, I'll probably add an interstage intercooler or an air to water cooler.

One more thing. All these simulations assume that the engine has enough air flow and heat in the exhaust stream to spin the turbines to turn the compressors to build the boost that is necessary. Usually the turbo manufacturers size the turbines relative to the compressors, so if you size the compressor correctly for the engine, generally the turbine isn't too far out.

On a dyno run there is usually such an excess of fuel and heat that spooling up an oversized turbo isn't a problem. My engine is going to be entirely different in that regard. We'll see if it works in the real world.

Here is a screen shot for those that can't make the link with my data work. The webside url is http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml.



Cheers !

Last edited by me2; 05-28-2012 at 05:00 PM.
  #60  
Old 05-28-2012, 06:52 PM
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Keep up the good work...
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:09 PM
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Wow.. this is deep..
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If i go, im stocking up on coolant to sell on the way down there. A convoy of 6.0s from the burg to florida, id be a millionaire by georgia...

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Old 05-28-2012, 07:10 PM
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This thread delivers to a level I may never see.

Good luck!
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:11 PM
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Awesome thread! Keep us updated!
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Old 05-28-2012, 10:30 PM
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I'm making this Biach a sticky thread... holy fukin info!
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Old 05-28-2012, 11:07 PM
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Wow my brain hrts from reading.

Bad ass project!
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Old 05-29-2012, 12:35 AM
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Awesome project, what a great write up!
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:24 AM
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I'm glad to hear you guys are liking the build write up. Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:10 AM
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Swap Tactics

or

"Why isn't anything happening ?"

I have a philosophy about doing a swap. I don't touch anything on the recipient truck until I have as much figured out as possible and some sort of a plan to deal with everything. Put another way, there isn't any use yanking the engine and transmission out of the truck until I have all my ducks in a row for making it run.

So right now I'm still driving my 08 F350 daily. Its completely stock. I haven't touched a thing on it.

And every day I am tackling some aspect of the swap. Taking measurements, figuring out wiring, ordering parts, making notes, designing things, etc.

I keep a list and every time I come across something I don't know about the swap, I add it to the list. And every time I figure something out, I document it and cross it off the list.

I know its time to yank the engine and actually do the swap when I can't think of anything more to ask questions about and I have answers and parts and designs to everything on my list.

When is this going to happen ? I'm not sure. Hopefully in the next couple weeks. It depends on when I get all my questions answered, all the parts I need to do the swap and I run out of questions to ask.

Is everything going to go as planned once the engine is pulled ? Absolutely not.

But it will be one heck of a lot easier than if I start answering questions after the engine is pulled. Making up solutions on the fly to get the truck running again without enough forethought is not an efficient way (for me) to operate.

I made these tactics up when I did the swap in my '99. It was a simpler swap and I still spent a couple months gathering parts, wiring information, measurements and confidence before I pulled the engine. 10 days later, I had a running truck and I haven't really touched it since. It went very well.

One other thing I learned from my '99 swap is that once its done, you don't really want to go back and redo things. For example, the engine mounts aren't great on my '99 swap. I always said I was going to redo them, but I never have. So in some ways its better to do things right the first time rather than plan to go back and redo them later.

I'm hoping for the same outcome with this swap, but due to the transmission and the truck its going into, there are a lot more details to attend to. And I'll be taking baby steps with the engine and transmission as I go. They aren't going to do everything I want from them all at once.

So where exactly am I on the 08 swap ?

I have a lot of things mostly figured out. A lot of this I have not yet mentioned in this thread. I'll do that as I go along.

I'm still waiting for a few essential parts that should arrive here this week. And some decisions need to be made once those parts arrive.

I need to get a bit more detail on quite a few things. I have a lot of questions answered at the 75% level, but not the 100% level. 75% = this needs to connect to this. 80% = I need 2 hoseclamps and a 24 inch piece of hose to connect these two things. 100% = I have the parts in hand, ready to install.

And I need to look into a few concerns that have popped up recently, namely engine clearance in the engine compartment.

So its going to be a while until you see an engine pulled in this thread. But if I write up the stuff that IS going on, you'll see what goes into planning my swap when it does happen.

In the near future, I hope to see the following happen.

- engine teardown, rods replaced, head frost plugs replaced, studs installed, reassembly and paint
- mock up the twin turbo setup. I'll finalize it once the engine is installed
- install the battery boxes on the frame and get power cables started for the 6.7 installation
- install a dual filter fuel filtering setup. Check the capacity of the 6.4 low pressure fuel pump
- perform extensive CAN message logging and deciphering on the F350 for all of the transmission control input output PIDs
- perform some CAN message logging and deciphering on an 08 Dodge for a few essential Engine PIDs.
- finish data logging transmission shift info from a 2011 F350
- test installation of the transmission controller into the F350, talking with the chassis on the CAN bus
- install the engine wiring harness on the 6.7 and power it up
- test communication of the transmission controller with the 6.7 CAN bus
- connect the transmission controller up to the 6R140. Test that it interfaces properly to all the solenoids and sensors
- test out the transfer case motor operation on the 6R140 TC.
- verify the flex plate and starter geometry and sent out the CAD drawings for the adapter plate and various pieces

That covers about 80% of the big stuff left to be done.

As far as time goes, I've blocked off most of the next month or so to work exclusively on this project.

Stay tuned, there is lots of fun ahead.

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:40 PM
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Just wanted to say keep up the good work. You are a big inspiration to me. The 6R140 is a transmission that I am very interested in, as is the conversion you are doing. As a matter of fact, I became a member here just now because I found your build thread last night while doing my own research.
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Old 05-29-2012, 01:45 PM
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Also, what is it that you do for a living, or rather, where did you learn the computer related things you know? I am a diesel mechanic, and embarrassed to say I learned things over the last 7 pages I feel should have been common knowledge to me.
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Old 05-29-2012, 02:10 PM
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Making It All Work

aka, "What is all this CAN stuff about ? I like my beer in bottles !"

The more electrical gadgets you add to a vehicle the more communication you need. Power windows can only go up when the key is on, the radio gets louder the faster the truck goes, etc. All that interelated "smart" functionality needs information from outside the component to make it work intelligently.

Historically, this was done with a separate wire for every function that needed to be communicated. With the outbreak of luxury vehicles loaded with "smart" gadgets, the wiring mess became too great and someone came up with the idea of transmitting the required information via messages on a network instead of using individual wires.

CAN Bus is that network. You can read more about it here, but Google is your friend if you need more or less info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAN_bus

The quick explanation is that CAN Bus is like an Ethernet network in your truck, only instead of your daughter video chatting with grandma, its your engine ECM telling the transmission TCM that its overloaded and needs to downshift the transmission.

Just to be clear, CAN is not interoperable with Ethernet in any fashion. Its just an analogy to make it easier to understand.

So what does this have to do with my swap ? I intend to make full use of the Ford CAN Bus to make everything work. BECAUSE I HATE WIRING !

Am I crazy ? I don't think so. Lets look at it in more detail. Lets consider how I am going to make the accelerator work with the 6.7.

Traditionally, there are several ways to wire an accelerator into a Cummins swap ECM.

1) use an engine mounted accelerator sender (APPS) and control it with an accelerator cable from a gasser. This was common with the 24V and early CR engines that used an engine mounted APPS.

2) Mount a Cummins APPS ( and the accelerator pedal assembly) in the truck cab and wire it into the 6.7 ECM.

3) Intercept the signal from the Ford APPS and convert it to the APPS voltages the Cummins ECM needs.

4) Read the signal from the Ford APPS with a microcontroller and have it generate a synthetic Cummins APPS signal.

FWIW, I started with #3 in my '99 swap and upgraded to #4. It works well.

With my 08 swap I am going to do something completely different.

A stock 08 F350 has 2 CAN buses on it.

One, called the low speed CAN bus, is used to send trivial chassis type information around the vehicle. Things like air temperature, DVD status in the rear seat player, that sort of stuff.

The other bus is called the high speed bus and it sends all sorts of real time informational all over the truck. Engine temperature, engine load, cruise control status, etc.

It turns out that accelerator position is one of the pieces of data on the high speed bus. The stock Ford accelerator pedal is hard wired into the ECM. The ECM then provides accelerator pedal information to any device that needs it in the form of a message on the CAN Bus.

What module would ever need to know the accelerator pedal information other than the ECM ? Well, the transmission control unit for one. And the ABS controller module. And probably the air bag controller module.

So instead of having several wires (because APPS units provide multiple signals to be failsafe) to every module that needs its information, the ECM handles reading the APPS and sends the data on the 2 wire CAN network to wherever its needed.

So what does this have to do with the 6.7 throttle signal ? Well, instead of hard wiring an APPS into the 6.7 ECM, I am going to read the throttle position message on the Ford high speed CAN bus with a micro controller and then generate a synthetic APPS signal for the Cummins ECM to use.

Now why would you want to do that ? An APPS is only 4 wires.

For a couple reasons.

1) I don't have to touch any of the stock Ford APPS wiring. Which means a) less work, b) no holes for new wires in the firewall, c) troubleshooting my truck is the same as a stock truck, including the wiring diagrams in the shop manual and checking the status of the APPS (on both the Ford ECM and the Cummins ECM!) via a scan tool, etc.

2) There is no cost, other than the micro controller, which is needed anyway, as we'll see. I don't have to buy a Dodge APPS, for example.

3) The Ford ECM still receives a proper APPS signal. Which means that it still sends a proper APPS message to all the modules that need it, such as the ABS module and the transmission control module.

And whatever else might need it that we don't know about and don't care to have to learn about.

4) I can now use the APPS message anywhere that I need it, for example in the transmission controller for the 6R140.

If I didn't use a CAN message to get that information, not only would I have to wire the APPS signal into the 6.7 ECM, I'd also have to wire it into the 6R140 TCM.

5) It allows me to have full control over the APPS signal that the 6.7 ECM receives.

Remember how I'm hoping my engine will make 1200 ftbls. And remember how the 6R140 torque converter has a torque ratio of 1.8 and an input shaft rating of 1400 ftbls ?

If I want the stock 6R140 to live, I need to dial down the power from the engine anytime the TC is unlocked. 1.8 x 1200 = 2160 ftlbs, which is 50% more than the 6R140 is rated to handle. But if the TC is locked, 1200 ftlbs is less than the 1400 ftlbs it can handle.

** I'm assuming the 6R140 is incapable of handling more torque than its stock rating, which has been proven otherwise in practice. I'm doing this for an example, but in practice I'll probably have a tow setting on the TCM that does limit the engine power when the TC is unlocked. When you make your own TCM, you can do that.**

I can easily dial down the power on the 6.7 by dropping the throttle signal the micro controller generates and if the micro controller knows when the TC is unlocked (via another CAN bus message, of course !) then I can cut the engine back until its safe.

It would be pretty hard to do that without CAN bus messages.

Lets do another example.

The Smart Junction Box in an 08 F350 needs to know that the engine is running at 500 RPM or faster before it will turn certain things like air conditioning on. Thus we need a tach signal.

But do we ? The SJB doesn't have an input from the engine for a tach signal. It gets its information from a CAN message.

Where does that CAN message come from ? The Ford ECM.

So one thing we could do is wire up a couple dummy crank and camshaft sensors on the 6.7 to simulate the 6.4 tach signals and feed them to the Ford ECM. This would allow the Ford ECM to see the crank and cam signals from which it will then send out an engine speed message on the CAN bus and wala, the SJB is happy and we have air conditioning.

My wife and kids like AC when its hot out.

However, there is an even better way. It turns out the Cummins ECM has its own CAN bus, albeit a different language than the Ford CAN bus. And the Cummins ECM has its own engine speed message. So "all" we have to do is read the Cummins engine speed message and send it on the Ford CAN bus where it will be received by the SJB and we will have working AC.

Again my wife is happy.

Isn't that a lot of work to just turn on the AC ? Some might think so, but it turns out that the tach in the dash also needs the engine speed message on the CAN bus. When we read the Cummins message and send a Ford message, we also get a working tachometer. And the transmission controller also needs to know how fast the engine is running so that it can calculate how much slip is occuring across the torque converter, amoung other things. CAN Bus data is very pervasive. Its used in places you would never expect until you think about it for a while.

And again, there are wiring savings and cost savings and its easier to troubleshoot and the list goes on.

At some point in the future I am going to wire a 1000 watt pure sine inverter into the cab of my truck with several outlets so that everyone can plug in their AC gizmos and be happy.

And guess what ? I don't want that inverter to run unless the engine is running because it will draw about 100 amps and kill the batteries very quickly.

So I'll make my own little smart junction box and have it watch for the engine RPM message on the CAN bus and turn the inverter on and off as necesary.

Because if I don't build that intelligence into my truck, some night I'll shut the engine off with the inverter still running and the next morning my batteries will be dead.

And all it takes is 2 wires and a little software to make that magic happen.

Thus far I have used 2 simple examples, the throttle signal and the engine speed signal. But I intend to control just about everything installed on my truck with the CAN Bus, one way or another. Air conditioning, transfer case shifting, dash gauges, accessory gauges, transmission controller, cruise control, etc, are all connected to the CAN Bus in one way or another.

And with a bit of work I think I can make them function like they would if the Cummins 6.7 was installed in my truck from the factory. Try doing that with conventional wiring techniques.

I'm about waist deep into this CAN stuff right now. I can see its potential. I understand all the theory and I'm watching data on various buses. I'm just about to start injecting my own data onto both Ford and Cummins buses.

Using the CAN Bus fopr integrating everything is by no means a sure thing, but if it works it will dramatically simplify the wiring of my engine swap and make it much more factory like.

I'm off to get my hands dirty on an engine.

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 02:27 PM.
  #72  
Old 05-29-2012, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpitbull44 View Post
Also, what is it that you do for a living, or rather, where did you learn the computer related things you know? I am a diesel mechanic, and embarrassed to say I learned things over the last 7 pages I feel should have been common knowledge to me.
I am very happy you got something out of it, because often I feel like a fool typing out stuff that I wonder if only I didn't know !

I knew nothing about EFI Live, Ford CAN bus, the 6R140, and even the Cummins 6.7 when I started out in November. Don't believe me ? Go search some of my automatic transmission posts on Powerstroke Nation from last fall. Hillarious.

Lets be honest, the success of this whole swap is still a long way from a sure thing. I am WAY out on a limb with a lot of this stuff. But I keep pecking away at things and learning and putting 2 and 2 together and it looks like there is a possibility it will work.

Some big tests are on the horizon...

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 05-29-2012, 03:04 PM
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In case I've driven some of you to roll your eyes over and paint this swap as hopeless, not everything I'm proposing is new to me.

Except the 6R140 controller. That will be completely new to me. Luckily it has a mechanical limp mode !

Here is the circuit that ran the throttle on my '99 swap for the first 3 years of its existence.



It converts the 0.8 to 4 volts(?) from a Ford APPS (TPS in Ford land) to the 05 Cummins ECM throttle input voltages. It totally ignores the idle validation switch !

It worked well but didn't like car washes and didn't handle cruise control or AC.

I built this circuit because when my 05 CR arrived I found it didn't have an APPS like the other CRs I had seen and the engine mounted APPS units were expensive and on back order at the time.

And nobody could tell me if the output from an 03.5 APPS would work with the 05 CR. As a matter of fact, I still don't really know.

Like I said, school of hard knocks.

This is the circuit that is running the throttle, cruise control and AC compressor on my current 5.9CR swap.



This is a micro processor based solution. It took a day or so to make. All of the inputs and outputs are analog. I had to splice into several Ford wires to hook it up. It would have 1/3 the wires if it was getting its inputs and controlling things via the CAN Bus.

So the big difference between what I've done in the past and what I want to do with my 08, is that instead of hard wiring stuff into the controller, I want to read and write CAN messages. Which I think will make things dramatically easier.

If everything went perfectly, the only wires I'd have to touch on the truck itself would be connections to the CAN Bus.

We'll see how things play out as we go forward.

Edit. Correction a couple posts above, a Cummins APPS is 6 wires, not 4.

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 03:24 PM.
  #74  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:12 PM
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So have you actually been able to locate an accurate list of the Cummins specific CANbus based IDs and data descriptions - or do you intend on sniffing all of them out and deciphering them?

Honestly that is something I have wanted to try, but just have never taken the time - although I think I have all the equipment necessary to begin taking the look with some freeware. Any additional details to your experience with reading and interpreting both the standard CANbus and the specialized CANbus protocol that Cummins uses would be greatly appreciated.

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Old 05-29-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodtractor View Post
So have you actually been able to locate an accurate list of the Cummins specific CANbus based IDs and data descriptions - or do you intend on sniffing all of them out and deciphering them?
Some of the messages are J1939 format. Others are proprietary. I've never been able to find anyone who will share the list, but I know people who have it.

The SAE J1939-71 document is the latest revision to the standard.

Quote:
Honestly that is something I have wanted to try, but just have never taken the time - although I think I have all the equipment necessary to begin taking the look with some freeware. Any additional details to your experience with reading and interpreting both the standard CANbus and the specialized CANbus protocol that Cummins uses would be greatly appreciated.
All I can say is jump in.

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 03:27 PM.
  #76  
Old 05-29-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
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** I'm assuming the 6R140 is incapable of handling more torque than its stock rating, which has been proven otherwise in practice.
As you stated the 6R140 is rated at 1400 lb-ft after the torque converter. This rating was certified by testing and calculation, but it is not an absolute limit. It is the torque level that the trans was designed to live with for it's design life. If you go above 1400 lb-ft you most likely won't immediately break parts, but parts will start to fatigue at a higher rate, shortening the transmission's life.
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Kovalsky View Post
As you stated the 6R140 is rated at 1400 lb-ft after the torque converter. This rating was certified by testing and calculation, but it is not an absolute limit. It is the torque level that the trans was designed to live with for it's design life. If you go above 1400 lb-ft you most likely won't immediately break parts, but parts will start to fatigue at a higher rate, shortening the transmission's life.
Music to my ears, Mark. Thanks for clarifying.

What is the design life on a transmission like the 6R140 ?
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Old 05-29-2012, 08:59 PM
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Mounting the engine stand adapter to the engine.




Lift off, with the fully assembled engine crane. This is the first time the engine has moved in 7 months.



Transfering the engine from the crane to the stand. This went way better than I ever dreamed, thanks to the crane fitting underneath the stand the the good wheels I put on everything.

I easily tranfered the engine from the crane to the stand all by myself.

Notice the bent lifting arm on the crane. I'll be replacing it with something heavier.

This crane replaced an older non folding crane that I sold. Almost everything on the old crane was heavier than on the new crane.



Engine mounted on the engine stand.



Its very stable in the stand, though the center post does flex a bit.

I love the height of the engine. Its perfect for working on.

This is the floor stand that I built to hold it. I think its 12.5" between the 2x4s and the raised up section is 24 inches long. If you don't need to work on the underside of the engine, a stand like this works fine.

Though its a pain working on the floor.

The pock marks on the raised 2x4s are from the pan bolts.



First up was removing the fan. Contrary to Internet opinion, it DOES NOT have a left handed thread !



I used a small C clamp to hold the pulley. A couple hammer whacks on an el cheapo imported 36 mm wrench got it off easily.



The teardown continues.

Last edited by me2; 05-29-2012 at 09:10 PM.
  #79  
Old 05-29-2012, 10:15 PM
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Amazing info. What are you using to read and write can bus messages. I'm slowing working on getting some info together for a 06 CR swap into an 05 to 07 f350. A garage to do it in is first in the order as you probably know.


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Last edited by bad12jr; 05-29-2012 at 10:20 PM.
  #80  
Old 05-29-2012, 11:13 PM
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Are you using the stock fuel filter? If not I'll take the connector for the fuel heater, mines missing..
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
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Amazing info. What are you using to read and write can bus messages.
Thanks. A custom microcontroller board I am putting together.

Actually, there will be 3 of them. I didn't give you guys the whole story. There is more to it. But its still pretty simple.

Quote:
I'm slowing working on getting some info together for a 06 CR swap into an 05 to 07 f350.
I am not sure how much CAN stuff those trucks do. It would be interesting to know.

I do know that the 2011s do even more CAN messaging than the 2008s do.

I also know that my '99 does NONE ! . It does have OBDII though, so you can at least troubleshoot things. The 04.5 ECM has OBDII as well.

In the back of my mind I'm thinking that I would like to drop my 04.5CR into a 2010+ F150. If I did that, I'd update the ECM to an 06 because it supports CAN messaging. The 04.5s have some sort of a serial bus interface, not CAN.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 05-30-2012, 12:06 AM
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Are you using the stock fuel filter? If not I'll take the connector for the fuel heater, mines missing..
The fluid connector or the electrical connector ? I have a spare electrical connector.

I'm unsure about using the stock fuel filter. I want to run dual filters on the frame, but I still want a water in fuel indication. So far it seems the only way to do that is with the stock fuel bowl. When I say dual filters, I mean a water separator filter and a 5 micron fuel filter.

FYI, I'm pretty sure that the Cummins ECM sends a CAN message when the WIF sensor goes off. I know for sure there is a WIF message that goes to the Dodge instrument panel and I assume it originates at the Cummins ECM.

Wiring things up and getting everything functioning right was always the part of the swap that I disliked the most. I will be very happy if I can handle those sorts of details in a micro controller via CAN messages.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 12:18 AM.
  #83  
Old 05-30-2012, 12:16 AM
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Mr. ProjectV20 gave me a heads up on a couple clearance issues he is running into on his swap.

One is that the HE351VE interferes with the HVAC box.

The other is that the engine height puts it very close to the underside of the hood.

So I did some measuring.

On my truck it appears that the HVAC box is 16 inches from the center of the engine compartment. However, the HE351VE vane actuator sticks out about 17 inches from the engine centerline. The turbine portion of the HE351VE only sticks out about 15 inches.

I am now looking into whether the center portion of an HE351VE can be clocked. If it can be, one can put the actuator facing down instead of out and the problem will be solved.

Mechanically clocking it is not a problem. I'm worried about the oil drain being at 90 degress from the bottom.

I'll post what I find when I get an answer.

My 6.7 is 29 inches from the shallowest part of the oil pan, where it would go over the crossmember to the tallest part of the valve cover. But not including the EGR valve actuator which sticks above the valve cover by another 2.5 inches. Its a tall engine.

I think there is enough height between the cross member and the underside of the hood on an 08, but I can't be entirely sure as its difficult to measure with the engine still in the truck.

My twin turbo setup will stick up about 2-2.5 inches above the tallest part of the valve cover. That S475 is a big turbo !

I hope to measure an engine compartment on a truck without an engine at a local dealer later this week.
  #84  
Old 05-30-2012, 12:39 AM
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The engine stand works great. I'm very glad I built it.

I have the entire exhaust side of the engine stripped. I stopped there because I didn't have caps for the fuel system on the other side and I wanted to look into the clearance issue that Mr. ProjectV20 told me about.

I hope to finish stripping the engine tomorrow.
  #85  
Old 05-30-2012, 01:37 AM
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Just got caught up with your progress - excellent attention to detail!
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  #86  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:06 AM
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Posted up a question about the turbo oil drain on CompD.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...03#post1795403

Here is what I posted.

===============================================

Does the turbo oil drain have to face down ?

I'm swapping a Cummins 6.7 with an HE351VE into a truck and I have space issues. The VGT actuator interferes with the HVAC box.

The engine will fit no problem if I clock the center assembly down on the turbo. This will put the VGT actuator under the turbo instead of sticking out the side. However, if I do this the oil drain will move from the bottom to the side.

Is it OK to run a turbo with the oil drain going out the side versus going out the bottom ?

Thanks

==============================================
  #87  
Old 05-30-2012, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
Posted up a question about the turbo oil drain on CompD.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...03#post1795403

Here is what I posted.

===============================================

Does the turbo oil drain have to face down ?

I'm swapping a Cummins 6.7 with an HE351VE into a truck and I have space issues. The VGT actuator interferes with the HVAC box.

The engine will fit no problem if I clock the center assembly down on the turbo. This will put the VGT actuator under the turbo instead of sticking out the side. However, if I do this the oil drain will move from the bottom to the side.

Is it OK to run a turbo with the oil drain going out the side versus going out the bottom ?

Thanks

==============================================

You can clock the turbo some - but generally speaking the drain has to be at the bottom unless you want to pull a vacuum on the drain (not something I would want to do in a DD application).

Why don't you investigate a different manifold that puts the turbo in a different location?
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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Why don't you investigate a different manifold that puts the turbo in a different location?
Cost. Hassle. And unless the new manifold clocks the VGT actuator, it doesn't buy me anthing over the stock manifold. If the new manifold moves the turbo forward, then there isn't enough room to do the twins setup.

All I need to do is clock the center section and it will work.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 09:31 AM.
  #89  
Old 05-30-2012, 09:43 AM
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Quoting someone else's quote.
==========================================
Information taken direct from the Holset service manual for the HX35/40:

Oil return pipes are permitted to decline at an overall angle of not less than 30 degrees below horizontal. All turbocharger applications require a pipe of internal diameter greater than 19 mm which has integrated connectors. To ensure oil drains into the engine under all operating conditions, the return connection into the engine sump must not be submerged and the outlet flange of the turbocharger must be 50 mm above the maximum oil level of the engine sump pan.
===========================================

I'm going to stop fretting about turbo clearance issues until I get some measurements from an 08 with the engine removed and see how ProjectV20's engine fits.

In the mean time I'll continue with the tear down and resume CAN Bus work.

For those that aren't aware, the HE351VE is a huge turbo. Thinking about it more, I am not sure if a manifold that moved it forward would work either. The reason being that its already up tight against the side of the stock 6.7 engine mount. I'll put the mount on an take a picture to illustrate what I mean.

However, I might be moving the passenger side mount forward anyway, which m ight make room.

Time to make an engine template. Stay tuned.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 09:50 AM.
  #90  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:33 AM
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Furthermore,

==========================================
8. The orientation of the end housings may need changing in order to align correctly with all other connections. If so, ensure all fastenings are tightened to the specified torque (see accompanying data) when the correct attitude is set. In the case of Holset HC5A, HX80/82/83/85 ensure lockplate tabs are secured against the bolt heads. The orientation cannot be altered on Holset HY40V, HY50V, HE431VE, HE431V, HE531V, HE351CW and HE351V.
==========================================

http://www.holset.co.uk/mainsite/fil...rbocharger.php

The center piece on the HE351VE is pinned to both the turbine and compressor sections. I guess there is a reason for that.

The turbine and compressor are not pinned to the center section on my S475.
  #91  
Old 05-30-2012, 02:39 PM
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I had my CAD department draw this up.



The hatched area is the accessory drive.

Please excuse the quality.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 02:44 PM.
  #92  
Old 05-30-2012, 04:54 PM
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I put the turbo back on the engine to get some measurements.



I built a 3D model of the engine so that I can get a better feel for how it fits in a truck when I visit the Ford dealer.

It always surprises me how boxy and square these engines look in profile. I double measured everything and the model is pretty much dead on for the actual engine profile. I made it 10" wide, which is a good average for the real engine. I then marked off the areas of the major components as well as how far they stick out.



I did the same thing for my last swap, but it was only a 2D model.

I'll resume tearing down the engine tonight.

I dug up my old (04.5) engine mounts. The new ones are on the left, the old ones are on the right.

Same engine bolt mounts, same mount bolt position, except the 04.5 passenger side mount is shifted about 1/2".

The new mounts have the isolator built into the mount. The 04.5s use a cartridge isolator.







I wonder why Dodge changed the engine mount design ?

A birdie told me that 2 of the shorter mounts might work well to mount my engine.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 05:04 PM.
  #93  
Old 05-30-2012, 05:59 PM
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Things are definitely going to be interesting height wise.



The crankcase ventilation system filter and cover adds over 2 inches to the top of the valve cover.





If need be, A simple flat plate will cover the hole left by removing the filter assembly and cover. A new valve cover would be a prettier solution.

I totally didn't see this coming. I had lots of clearance height wise with the 5.9CR in my '99. This throws a wrench into my plan for twins as I was planning to mount the S475 so it was about 2" taller than the filter cover part of the valve cover.

I'll issue a final verdict on the situation when I put the mock engine into an engineless truck.

I really want to find the profile cutout I had for the 04.5 CR from when I put it in. Surely the 6.7 isn't that much taller than the 5.9 ?

At this point I need to thank ProjectV20 for sharing his information. I'm putting the twins mock up on hold for now.

Last edited by me2; 05-30-2012 at 06:01 PM.
  #94  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:43 AM
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I spent last night in the shop mocking up the twins setup and measuring things.

Due to the height issue, I had to totally redsign the plumbing and placement for the twins.

I bought a 2nd gen exhaust manifold and valve cover this morning. They should be here on Saturday.

The EGR cooler cracked on my 6.4 this morning. I can't drive it anymore. As soon as I get the CAN messages off it, the engine is coming out.
  #95  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
I spent last night in the shop mocking up the twins setup and measuring things.

Due to the height issue, I had to totally redsign the plumbing and placement for the twins.

I bought a 2nd gen exhaust manifold and valve cover this morning. They should be here on Saturday.

The EGR cooler cracked on my 6.4 this morning. I can't drive it anymore. As soon as I get the CAN messages off it, the engine is coming out.
With the 6.4 problem it sounds like your build will be in high gear.

Great thread and looking forward to this. I miss my commonrail engine but do enjoy the upgraded Ford interior.
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  #96  
Old 05-31-2012, 10:12 AM
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With the 6.4 problem it sounds like your build will be in high gear.
Yep. We missed camping last weekend and now our plans for Father's Day Weekend are in flux.

I was going to use the 6.4 to pull the trailer about 400 miles that weekend, one last trip. Not anymore.

Now I have to do a quick fix on my '99 and get it roadworthy.

BTW, I was kidding about the CAD department a few posts up. My "CAD department" is a laptop on my workbench.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 10:33 AM.
  #97  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:07 AM
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Here is another 6.7 going into a Superduty. This one is an Excursion. The thread hasn't been updated in a while.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/cu...ion-build.html
  #98  
Old 05-31-2012, 11:46 AM
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I would love to have the time, funds and motivation to put this much effort into something!

Sub'd!
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:54 AM
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I had to un order my 24V valve cover. They are held on by several bolts down the center. My engine needs 6 bolts in 2 rows.

I ordered a Cummins marine aluminum cover. Part #3969481. $175. Ouch, but its blingy.

The original part number on that cover is #3969484, but it is unorderable and its just the cover. 3969481 is the complete assembly, including bolts and some breather apparatus.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:09 PM.
  #100  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 907DAVE View Post
I would love to have the time, funds and motivation to put this much effort into something!
I feel guilty every time someone makes that comment.

When its all done, I'll add up what it "cost".

Maybe this will motivate people.





The prices in the last picture are plus labour and plus core charge(s).

I do not intend to start a Ford 6.4 versus Cummins 6.7 debate war with this statement, only to point out that costs are relative. My truck will have a new engine and transmission when its done.

My budget for this swap is still $5K. I haven't added things up for a while.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:13 PM.
  #101  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
I had to un order my 24V valve cover. They are held on by several bolts down the center. My engine needs 6 bolts in 2 rows.

I ordered a Cummins marine aluminum cover. Part #3969481. $175. Ouch, but its blingy.

The original part number on that cover is #3969484, but it is unorderable and its just the cover. 3969481 is the complete assembly, including bolts and some breather apparatus.
Is that a direct bolt on for the 6.7?
  #102  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Project20v View Post
Is that a direct bolt on for the 6.7?
It appears to be.

According to various Google searches, it was a bolt on for the 5.9 CRs (6 bolts in 2 rows) with certain injector wiring harnesses that didn't need a pass through for the injector harness through the cover.

Our (my) 6.7 injector harness goes through the gasket, not the valve cover, so I think its a bolt on.

If it isn't, I have a milling machine and I'll make it work.

I seriously thought about making the 24V cover work by drilling holes through it and then TIGoing a plate below the cover, but the holes would have went right through the Cummins logo.

And I wasn't sure what the cover was made of and how well it would handle being TIGed. The thought of something coming lose and falling into the valvetrain of my running 6.7 convinced me the new cover was the way to go.

It looks like this.


The oil filler hole is in the front. Some other covers have them in the back, where it would be under the cowl.

Did I mention its blingy ? It comes unpainted. Some people polish them, others paint them. The one in the picture looks powder coated.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:32 PM.
  #103  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:30 PM
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ProjectV20, could I bother you to post some close up pictures of your intake horn ?

The stock 6.7 intake horn sticks up pretty high. I'm probably going to make one for my engine.

I'm wondering how your intake horn handles the injector line for cylinder #1. Does the injector line pass between where the intake horn splits into 2 pipes ?

I was almost thinking of putting a pipe through my horn for the injector line to pass through. Any other ideas ?

Thanks !

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:32 PM.
  #104  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:34 PM
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I'll get some pics. The front tube is just dimpled.

The rocker box (the piece under the valve cover) is different. The 6.7 valve cover gasket will not work with that.
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Project20v View Post
The rocker box (the piece under the valve cover) is different. The 6.7 valve cover gasket will not work with that.
They look the same in the Cummins parts book. Tell me more.



Its great having another guy doing a similar swap at the same time.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:42 PM.
  #106  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:44 PM
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You are right, its different.

The 6.7 box is straight on the injector side. This one has cut ins.

So it looks like we build a cover plate for the top of our 6.7 valve covers and chop down the filler pipe.

BTW, I think the front of my hood (08) is lower than yours. (03)

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 12:54 PM.
  #107  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:47 PM
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You could remove the 6.7 rocker box and bolt that to the 6.7 head directly with a 5.9 gasket and harness if there are enough pins, but would there be clearance for the rockers and injectors? You'd have to cut a hole in the new valve cover also because the 6.7 head has no pass through for the 5.9 harness.

Last edited by Project20v; 05-31-2012 at 12:52 PM.
  #108  
Old 05-31-2012, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2 View Post
You are right, its different.

The 6.7 box is straight on one side.

So it looks like we build a cover plate for the top of our 6.7 valve covers and chop down the filler pipe.

BTW, I think the front of my hood (08) is lower than yours. (03)
I think you are right about the 08 hood, it takes a bigger dip up front. You could just completely remove the filler neck and thread the new cover plate.
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Project20v View Post
You could remove the 6.7 rocker box and bolt that to the 6.7 head directly with a 5.9 gasket and harness if there are enough pins, but would there be clearance for the rockers and injectors? You'd have to cut a hole in the new valve cover also because the 6.7 head has no pass through for the 5.9 harness.
I'll look into this and other potential solutions. Thanks once again for the heads up. I put my valve cover order on hold.

For those that have never done one, this sort of stuff is what makes swaps interesting and takes the time.
  #110  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Project20v View Post
I think you are right about the 08 hood, it takes a bigger dip up front.
Ford even tilted the radiator. I think I've got less length to work with too. But still enough.

Quote:
You could just completely remove the filler neck and thread the new cover plate.
Cutting it off it and plugging it with a gasket and the plate is easy enough.

The thread, however, would be hard to make without a CNC mill capable of hellical milling. Any ideas on making the thread ?

A filler tube and cap from a '99 7.3 would work.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 01:13 PM.
  #111  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:16 PM
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The thread is one thing I would have to have a machine shop do.

I suppose you could mill the neck just under flush and seal it with the plate. This would require tools to add oil, but that's not really a big deal.
  #112  
Old 05-31-2012, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
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The thread is one thing I would have to have a machine shop do.

I suppose you could mill the neck just under flush and seal it with the plate. This would require tools to add oil, but that's not really a big deal.
You must have access to better and less expensive machines shops than I do.

I've got an idea that might work. I'll share it if it does. I'll CAD it first. I'll share the file if you need it. Any waterjet place should be able to cut it.
Edit: I'm not going to do this until I see there actually is a clearance issue.

If you were going to put a logo or emblem on that cover plate, what would you put on it ? I can't just leave it a plain plate !

Dodge trucks have nice "HO" emblems.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 01:47 PM.
  #113  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:32 PM
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So it looks like the engine is coming out.

A guy wants to buy it and have a shop remove it and put it in his truck. Less work for me if they do a good job. Same thing happened with my 7.3 back when I sold it.

What parts do I need to keep ?

Off the top of my head,
- engine coolant temp sender
- boost sender
- intercooler pipes and clamps and boots
- air conditioner compressor and sensors
- alternator
- air intake system
- exhaust stuff past the downpipe
- engine mounts, in case I use them for the 6.7
- PS pump and lines
- fuel lines from the frame to where they attach to the engine
- ECM.
- transmission adapter plate
- radiator hoses

Anything else ?

It looks like I am going to have to get the CAN messages from another truck, at least the ones that need the engine running.

It really rips me off this thing died, with no symptoms. This is the second time. The first time was when it started smoking from injector issues. That left me in a lurch for a week.
  #114  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:51 PM
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Wow!! Good detail and TONS of info! Good luck with the build and thanks for posting all this for everyone to learn from.
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  #115  
Old 05-31-2012, 02:57 PM
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Some people think I'm an idiot for chasing big torque numbers with this engine.

Quote:
Why won't you just listen to these guys? And why the hell do you think you need 1200ft/lbs at 1600rpm? Because you want to tow? That's dumb. Your just gonna break stuff. Set more realistic goals this isn't a 15l engine its a 6.7l.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=135553

My position on this is to shoot high and be happy with what I get. I know it will live at 800 ftlbs. I'm going to push the envelope and see what I can achieve.

If we never strive, we never improve.
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Old 05-31-2012, 02:58 PM
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Some people think I'm an idiot for chasing big torque numbers with this engine.


http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=135553

My position on this is to shoot high and be happy with what I get. I know it will live at 800 ftlbs. I'm going to push the envelope and see what I can achieve.

If we never strive, we never improve.
Keep doing what you're doing...
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  #117  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:41 PM
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No reason to let others influence your plan for the build, I'd say your on the right track to your goal. Like you said if we all let peoples comments like that influence our plans then there's never any improvement upon whats already been done!
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  #118  
Old 05-31-2012, 03:48 PM
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This is an awesome project and a lot of great information. Good luck with the build!

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  #119  
Old 05-31-2012, 04:23 PM
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Thanks, guys.

I'll keep forging ahead.

I'm out of town for the next 24 hours or so, but I'll resume working on things on the weekend.

Now that my truck is basically undriveable, there is no reason to keep the engine in any longer, once I've gotten all the CAN stuff off it. As soon as I get things coordinated with the buyer and I'm done the CAN stuff, its coming out. Then I can really see what we are up against space wise.

I'm really kicking myself for not getting the CAN Bus stuff done earlier. My worst fear was finding out that I was missing a critical message AFTER I got the 6.7 in and I couldn't scan what the 6.4 was sending anymore. Well, now my worst fears have happened even worse in that I don't have a running 6.4 anymore and I don't have the formats figured out for all the messages that I wanted. Hopefully I can get them figured out without a running engine.

Its in my best interest to leave the engine hardware stuff alone for now and focus on the CAN Bus stuff, while the 6.4 is in the truck. I know I can make the engine hardware work one way or another, its a matter of getting the integration stuff more together than it is right now, while I still can.

I went through this exact same thing back in March when the injectors went out. I never thought in my wildest dreams it would happen again, though I was very leary of pulling a signficant trailer with it.

FWIW, I don't think this truck ever pulled a trailer. There are no holes in the frame and no holes in the box. And the paint in the hitch receiver was still fresh when I bought it. I'm kind of sad that I never got to experience what it would have been like to tow with the 6.4 because now when I tow with the 6.7, I'll always wonder how it would have compared.

Anyway, enough rambling.

Last edited by me2; 05-31-2012 at 04:37 PM.
  #120  
Old 05-31-2012, 07:30 PM
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Stock power levels, it's nothing to write home about. Tuned, it's an animal. As handy as you are, why don't you fab up your own ******s and pull the coolers off your truck. That way you can get all the info you need.
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  #121  
Old 05-31-2012, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by uga33 View Post
Stock power levels, it's nothing to write home about. Tuned, it's an animal. As handy as you are, why don't you fab up your own ******s and pull the coolers off your truck. That way you can get all the info you need.
Do I have to buy a tuner to do that ? Or will it run just blocked off.

How many hours of wrenching to get the EGR cooler off ?
  #122  
Old 05-31-2012, 08:43 PM
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Bout two hours to get them off. Heck block off kits plates are cheap to buy. Truck will run with them gone, just have a CEL.
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  #123  
Old 06-01-2012, 12:08 AM
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Bout two hours to get them off. Heck block off kits plates are cheap to buy. Truck will run with them gone, just have a CEL.
Thanks for sharing information about that option. As you can probably tell, I know very little about the 6.4. I'll give it some thought.

It started smoking white at a stoplight this morning. It made a big cloud. It didn't smell like fuel. It continued for a few miles in stop and go traffic until I got home. Could it be something other than the EGR cooler ? Head gaskets ?

Last edited by me2; 06-01-2012 at 12:11 AM.
  #124  
Old 06-01-2012, 03:41 AM
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A few late night thoughts.

1) If it only takes a couple hours to install them, I should make up some EGR block off plates and install them on my 6.4

That is the quickest way for me to have a working vehicle and then I can save the Father's Day camping trip and then I can collect my CAN Bus info with a working vehicle. And it gives my engine buyer a bit more time to get ready.

Thanks for the tip, uga33. I owe you one.

I have a plasma cutter, so I thought I'd make some plates like these.



How thick should I make them ? From sheet stainless ? Gasket on both sides ?

The install instructions here don't look too bad.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...ad.php?t=66779

2) I am going to take a closer look at modifying the marine valve cover to fit my engine.

I'm thinking I could mill a small piece of the bottom section of the wavy side out and TIG in a piece of angle aluminum to replace it. I could then mill the edge of the angle aluminum to match the bottom of the rest of the cover. That would give me a straight edge on the injector side of the cover.

It would probably only take a few hours to do.

3) ProjectV20, another clearance question !

How much room do you have under the cowl ? Enough to adjust the valves ?

Does your adapter plate have a cut out for the tool to turn over the engine via the flywheel ?
  #125  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:49 AM
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Make them thin so its easy to install. You only need one gasket on each. Top cooler facing the intake elbow and the bottom on the egr exhaust pipe side
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  #126  
Old 06-01-2012, 09:32 AM
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Maybe this could address your height issue? It does not hurt that it looks badass too. Maybe I'll get one for my truck, WTH what's another $1k? when your throwing around 15K. (kidding)



3) ProjectV20, another clearance question !

How much room do you have under the cowl ? Enough to adjust the valves ?


There seems to be room under the cowl to adj the valves. I installed the engine with the cover off to give me a bit of extra room to avoid scratching my pretty oil pan. Once in the cover went on pretty easily.

Last edited by Project20v; 06-01-2012 at 09:49 AM.
  #127  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:35 AM
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Thanks for sharing information about that option. As you can probably tell, I know very little about the 6.4. I'll give it some thought.

It started smoking white at a stoplight this morning. It made a big cloud. It didn't smell like fuel. It continued for a few miles in stop and go traffic until I got home. Could it be something other than the EGR cooler ? Head gaskets ?
Sounds like coolers. How is the level in the coolant bottle? If you still have the *** on it, it could be just going through a regen. Mine would smoke like crazy in regen till I ******d it. As for running the coolers ******d with stock tuning, I recommend driving It around and making sure it won't go into limp mode before you hook up for Fathers day. I would hate for that to happen to you.
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  #128  
Old 06-01-2012, 10:11 PM
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Great project. Wish I had time / space to try something like this.

What are you using to read/scan the CAN bus data, and do you have any links on CAN bus data. I have an 07 250 that I'm considering doing a swap on as my 6.uh-oh is beginning to have signs of dying.
  #129  
Old 06-02-2012, 09:03 AM
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What are you using to read/scan the CAN bus data, and do you have any links on CAN bus data. I have an 07 250 that I'm considering doing a swap on as my 6.uh-oh is beginning to have signs of dying.
I'm using a prototype of the controllers I'm going to build. That way I am using and testing the actual hardware that I will be using to run the truck. I process the data with my own software.

I have not found any information on this on the Internet. I am in contact with another person working with the CAN Bus for a different project, but the data he is looking at is very different from what I am needing.

I'm not sure how much CAN stuff your 07 does. I know the 7.3 based trucks are all J1850 PWM(?) OBDII.

The shop manual for your 07 will tell you what it does CAN wise. The Helms shop manuals are friggin expensive, but just about essential for doing this sort of work. I would consult one first before I spent a bunch of time and money on tools.

Please post back what you find as I seem to be fielding quite a few questions about CAN stuff on pre 08 trucks.
  #130  
Old 06-02-2012, 09:35 AM
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From another forum.

Quote:
The only way a 6.7 or 5.9 cummins will stay together and produce 1200 tq @ 1600 rpm and stay together is if hell freezes over.
I'm not wanting to start a discussion or debate about the topic, I'm just relaying what other people think about this project. No further comment needed.

I'm undetered. I'm going to build it and what we get is what we get. Its a learning project.

Last edited by me2; 06-02-2012 at 09:39 AM.
  #131  
Old 06-02-2012, 07:53 PM
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I found a link for a $30 dollar usb scan tool supposedly capable of reading CAN bus data and is compatible with many different scan programs. Not sure if it will read diesels, I've been told by a local mechanic friend that there is a major difference.

http://www.diygadget.com/other-cool-...e-scanner.html
  #132  
Old 06-02-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
From another forum.



I'm not wanting to start a discussion or debate about the topic, I'm just relaying what other people think about this project. No further comment needed.

I'm undetered. I'm going to build it and what we get is what we get. Its a learning project.

You may have posted that you were in a previous post, but do you plan to run a girdle for the bottom end on the 6.7?
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  #133  
Old 06-03-2012, 07:48 AM
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Run far far away from the obd adapter. If it is anything like the Bluetooth version and I'm fairly confident it is, its a slow pos. I have the the Bluetooth one I use for torque on my phone. Pulls codes but any kind of data rate intensive app it fails miserably. Fault after fault. I had it hooked up for 5 min and had 1800 or so error faults while trying to watch pids.

There are a couple for around 100 dollars that I have read will read ford and can bus data very well as the protocol ford uses is weird compared to other company's. Wiki kiwi adapter is one very popular. The person who wrote the torque software on android uses that one quite often.

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  #134  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:31 AM
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You may have posted that you were in a previous post, but do you plan to run a girdle for the bottom end on the 6.7?
I wasn't going to.

I posted build questions in my own threads on both CF and CompD and people told me I didn't even need to do rods until 800 HP. People actually discouraged me from doing even the rods.

I've watched other build threads and asked questions in them and so far people think I don't even need to do the rods.

Here is the CF Thread.
http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/6-...checklist.html

Here is the CompD Thread.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for...d.php?t=133630

The replies to my question on the turbo drain thread were the first time that people have questioned the strength of the 6.7 bottom end.

I spent a lot of time investigating rods, simply because I didn't want to take a chance on them.

The only broken crank I know of was Big Swole's. He dyno'd 850HP at the rear wheels and figured he was making 900HP on the run it let go. I am nowhere near those power levels. 600 HP at the engine = 480 HP at the wheels.

850 HP at the rear wheels = at least 1100 HP (!) at the crank. At 2500 RPM, that is 2300 ftlbs at the flywheel.

Last edited by me2; 06-03-2012 at 08:37 AM.
  #135  
Old 06-03-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by oildigger View Post
I found a link for a $30 dollar usb scan tool supposedly capable of reading CAN bus data and is compatible with many different scan programs.
A couple quick comments.

Reading the CAN Bus is pretty easy these days. The hardware to do it is commonplace.

Doing something with the data you get off the CAN Bus is another story altogether.

OEMs use proprietary PIDs and you have to figure them out in order to get meaningful data. That is where ALL the work lies.

OBDII and CAN Bus are 2 entirely different beasts.

OBDII is a diagnostic communications system. The hardware layer is defined in J1850 and has a baud rate of 10.4 or 41.6 Kbps.

Can Bus is (real time) controller communications system. The hardware layer is designed to run at 250Kbps or 1Mbps.

It is possible to run gauge systems with OBDII signals. I think it would be pretty difficult to do engine and transmission control with OBDII signals. But I'm a newbie at all this and learning as I go, so I might be wrong.
  #136  
Old 06-03-2012, 09:30 AM
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The battery boxes arrived. They are from an E250/E350 van. I paid $20 each for them plus $20 shipping.

I hope to mount the batteries in these boxes on the outside of the passenger side frame rail, under the cab.



The flexplate arrived. It took forever because I bought it at the least expensive dealer and there were delays.





The flex plate seems to have counterweights on it like a crankshaft. There is no way the plate itself is that far out of balance and the flexplate is timed with the crank. Note the hole for a timing pin near the end of the pen.





There are tons of issues around the flexplate, starter and transmission adapter left to resolved. Not the least of which is the fact that the diameter of the Ford flexplate appears to be too small to use with the Cummins block because the starter hits the block before the starter teeth engage the flexplate.

This is a top priority. More on it later.
  #137  
Old 06-03-2012, 10:01 AM
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I took my engine mock up down to a dealer and plopped it into a 6.4 truck, minus the engine.













Generally, the engine appears to fit quite well.

There appears to be a height clearance issue in the front.

The mock engine models the 6.7 with the full valve cover. It appears that it might be possible to make the engine fit with the stock cover, but that it would fit better with a modified valve cover.

It also appears that it might be necessary to move the stock steering damper and possibly make a small change to the cross member.

The mock engine is a bit crude in the area of the front oil pan, in that it resembles the deepest part of the pan at both edges, whereas the pan on the real engine is only that deep in the center and the edges are shallower.

As the mock engine sits now, one could gain about an inch of clearance by contouring the driver's side of the crossmember to the shape of the pan. However, the crossmember shape may be just fine with the real engine.

Something will probably have to be done with the placement of the steering damper mount.

The length looks fine, but just. The mock engine contacts the 5R110 transmission face way before it contacts the firewall. Should radiator clearance in the front be an issue, the transmission my have to be moved rearward by a inch or more.

There is lots of room on the sides, especially in the heater box area. More so than with my '99. The amount of room is very impressive in this regard.

The stock engine mounts are very far rearward on the truck. They roughly align with the rear engine mount holes in the 6.7. It may be possible to use the stock Ford engine mounts.

It also appears that it is possible to insert the 6.7 into the truck without lifting the cab. But only just so. To do do, one drops the front of the engine down to get the oil pan sump behind the cross member and then lifts it up.

I think it is impossible to insert the engine with the transmission attached.

Last edited by me2; 06-03-2012 at 10:07 AM.
  #138  
Old 06-03-2012, 12:16 PM
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The height issue caught me totally off guard and destroyed the layout plans I had for my twin turbocharger setup.

My original twin turbocharger layout was going to have the HE351VE in the stock location and the S475 mounted up front so the scroll was above the exhaust manifold. This is how ATS sets up their Aurora twins for Dodge trucks.

The problem with that setup is that the upper part of the scrolls protrude above the valve cover of the engine and in a Ford truck, there isn't enough clearance for that.

My solution to this situation is to recognize that while the Ford engine compartment is height limited, it has lots of room to the passenger side of the engine.

My new twins setup will have the HE351VE mounted up and to the front of the engine and the S475 mounted approximately where the stock turbocharger is mounted.

I'll use either the stock 6.7 manifold or a 2nd gen manifold to achieve the HE351 placement. I may build a remote oil filter setup so that there is more room for the front turbo.

Being that I am making the hotpipe for it, I can place the S475 pretty much where I want to. The biggest obstacle to its placement is the location of the passenger side engine mount.
  #139  
Old 06-04-2012, 08:46 AM
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2 interesting performance threads.

5.9CR makes 556hp and 1024tq (both rear wheel) with EFI Live and stock CP3 and injectors.

The thing that interests me is the stock CP3 and injectors, because I am hoping not to mod them.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/3r...o-numbers.html

Discussion of a bulletproof 800 HP 6.7.

A couple things interest me in that thread.

The cost number thrown around for a good transmission build for one.

And Torquemada made "450hp and 950lbft tq-sucked the fuel rail dry." He was not using EFI Live tuning and for some reason EFI Live tuned engines seem to get more out of the CP3.

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/6-...ble-6-7-a.html

I'm posting these because I found them interesting, not necessarily for discussion. I'm stuck at a desk at the moment, waiting for a call, waiting to make a call. I'll be back in my garage in a hour or so. I'm focused on getting my swap done, not maximizing its power before its done.
  #140  
Old 06-04-2012, 01:23 PM
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I think the white smoke issue on my 6.4 is the fault of an early 6.4 intercooler design that collects moisture.

According to a couple posts on various sites, If you are driving an early 08 truck like mine with a light load for a while and then give it significant throttle, the hot charge air picks up the moisture that has collected in the intercooler and feeds it to the engine, which creates white smoke (steam) that doesn't smell like fuel.

I think that is what happend to my truck on Friday. I checked the coolant level and it doesn't seem to be dropping.

Here is a TSB on it.
http://www.thedieselgarage.com/forum...1&d=1232503959

I have contacted my dealer about this issue and asked if it would be covered under the Emissions Warranty. I'm waiting for a reply.

I was driving my truck this morning and it seems to work OK.

I'm working on the 6.7 turbo piping right now. I'll have pictures tonight.
  #141  
Old 06-04-2012, 11:04 PM
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I started working on the turbo setup as my planned turbo setup went out the window with the clearance issue under the hood.

When I asked around, the first thing people told me was to get a 2nd gen (24V 1998 -02) manifold because it would solve the placement problem of the upper turbo. So I did.



The problem with using a 2nd gen manifold in the upright position is that the turbo housing protrude above the LOWERED valve cover by about 4 inches. Ideally, I do not want anything protruding above the lowered valve cover.



The turbo in this picture is positioned above the where it would be if mounted directly on the manifold, but one cannot mount an HE351VE directly on the manifold because the 2nd gen manifold has a T3 pattern and the HE351 has a T3i pattern or whatever they call it.

So one would have to make a non trivial adapter from one pattern to the other, which would put the turbo out further, if not up higher as well. Thus I consider the height measurement in the picture indicative of about where it would end up.

Could it be made to work ? Possibly. But not easily.

The other problems with the turbo placement using the 2nd gen manifold is that the turbo is relatively far back on the engine, putting it almost directly in front of the cowl and not leaving much room for the S475 that must fit behind it.

Wanting to have the turbo further forward had me looking for a manifold with an exhaust port forward of between the 3-4 cylinders. It turns out the stock 6.7 manifold flipped would put the turbocharger between the 2 and 3rd cylinders.

One could not mount the HE351VE on top of the inverted manifold as it would stick about 5" above the LOWERED valve cover.

One could, however, make a 180 degree mounting plate/exhaust fitting that mounts the HE351VE beside the manifold between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders.



If one does this, the turbo protrudes about 16 inches from the side of the block, which is acceptable. You wouldn't want it to go much further but it will fit in the truck, probably without removing the passenger side battery, although I will be removing the passenger side battery.

Here is a side view with a piece of cardboard to roughly simulate the dome of the exhaust elbow to be built into the mount.



Not that there is about 1.5" of space between the turbo and the manifold. This will be removed in the final mount. Right now its just sitting as close as I could get it without drilling any holes.

Here is a side view of the engine with the turbo mounted.



There is lots of room for the S475 both height wise and length wise. The S475 is a large turbo, about 10 inches from compressor inlet to exhaust outlet. It will need to be mounted high to clear the engine mounts and a bit forward so that the down pipe can clear the transmission adapter plate.

I'm using a rubber inlet elbow on the HE351 in these pictures. It could be positioned below the turbocharger or above it. It would be much tidier below, so that is where I'll strive to keep it.

The hot pipe is a piece of cake with this set up and the S475 will actually protrude less from the block than the HE351VE does.

There are a couple things that need attention to do this.

1) I have to rework the alternator mount a bit so that it is closer to the block. No big deal. A couple hours of fabricating, maybe less.

2) There isn't a lot of clearance between the very hot HE351VE turbine housing and the oil filter. Luckily this area is cooled by the fan, but I doubt that will be enough. I'll either fabricate a good heat shield or implement a remote filter setup.

I checked into the later and found this.



Its a replacement filter head. Cummins part#3284170. Its beautiful and would work perfectly. Unfortunately, Cummins wants $380 for it. I purchased a used 5.9 CR filter head and will probably modify it to implement a remote filter setup instead.

I had to remove the studs on one of the 6.7 manifold EGR ports so that it wouldn't contact the block above the filter assembly. They came out fairly easily with a stud remover.







One other thing. I was initially frowning on using the stock 6.7 manifold because people told me it was very restrictive.

Upon direct comparison, I don't think it is restrictive at all. As a matter of fact, if the manifolds have similar wall thicknesses, the 6.7 manifold has a considerably larger cross section everywhere.

The pictures don't do the size difference justice, but in real life it is very apparent.







Today was a frustrating day in that I had lots of interuptions and the HE351VE outlet flange turned out not to fit. I should have a new flange at the end of the week and hopefully fewer interuptions tomorrow.

I received a Cummins 5.9 flexplate today. I'll be looking into the flexpate/starter/transmission adapter issue tomorrow.

Edits

Sorry for all the clutter in the background in these pictures. It makes it hard to see exactly what is going on.

In the pictures with the HE351VE mounted on the 2nd gen manifold, the center portion of the turbo would need to be rotated outward so that the center drain is on the bottom. The turbo could not be mounted like its shown in the pictures I took. I was only after the height of the turbocharger covers and did not include the VGT actuator in those numbers. The VGT actuator would stick out the side, making for a very wide installation, about 2 inches wider than using the 6.7 manifold.

Last edited by me2; 06-04-2012 at 11:17 PM.
  #142  
Old 06-04-2012, 11:11 PM
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If anyone can see a reason why I shouldn't mount the HE351VE this way, I'd love to hear it. If not, I'll be going ahead with this turbo setup.
  #143  
Old 06-05-2012, 08:08 AM
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What does everyone think of relocating the filter ? Necessary ? Unnecessary ? Prudent ? I'm undecided myself.
  #144  
Old 06-05-2012, 08:43 AM
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Maybe wait to decide until you get the engine with the twins sitting in the truck? I'm sure it would be easier to access if relocated, but maybe it won't be tucked behind the turbos and piping far enough to warrant the hassle and extra cost of relocation.
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  #145  
Old 06-05-2012, 10:05 AM
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Relocate the filter - it will make it more serviceable as well as give you more room in an area where you need it - much like changing out the exhaust manifold to one that will allow you to move the turbo to a different spot.

I'm not too keen on the 180* plumbing to make that VGT turbo fit - what does it look like if you flip the manifold over and then flipped the charger over so the inlet to the compressor is pointed towards the rear of the truck?
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  #146  
Old 06-05-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
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Relocate the filter - it will make it more serviceable as well as give you more room in an area where you need it - much like changing out the exhaust manifold to one that will allow you to move the turbo to a different spot.
Maybe the pictures don't make it clear, but the only issue with the stock filter placement is heat. As far as changing it goes, its probably fine. Does anyone think it needs to be moved for heat reasons ?

Quote:
I'm not too keen on the 180* plumbing to make that VGT turbo fit
Why is that ? I can easily keep the same area as the manifold throat throughout the elbow. The shape will be nice. The path is short.

????

Quote:
what does it look like if you flip the manifold over and then flipped the charger over so the inlet to the compressor is pointed towards the rear of the truck?
Which manifold ?

If you flip the 6.7 manifold over, the turbo is at the back of the engine. That is a non starter.

If you flip the 2nd gen manifold over and put the turbo underneath, if you face the compressor forward, it gets wide and puts the turbo low. If you face the compressor backwards, its a plumbing nightmare getting the hot pipe from the front to the HE351 to to the back turbo.

Its much easier to plumb the cold pipe around from the front of the top turbo to the compressor outlet of the back turbo compared to plumbing hot pipes. I think it fits much better too.

Last edited by me2; 06-05-2012 at 11:41 AM.
  #147  
Old 06-05-2012, 11:44 AM
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I'm working on the flex plate and the transmission adapter plate this morning. My head hurts from all the thinking.

The 6R140 torque converter was NOT designed to work with a Cummins engine. Bolting a clutch to a flywheel is so much easier than trying to bolt a torque converter to a different engine.

Last edited by me2; 06-05-2012 at 11:47 AM.
  #148  
Old 06-05-2012, 02:56 PM
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I think I have the adapter plate, flex plate and starter figured out.

I'm back working on the lower turbo, trying to see if there is room to clear a starter on the passenger side.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:41 PM
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Lots of measuring, figuring and sketching today.

I got the flex plate and adapter plate figured out. The starter is going on the passenger side. I won't have to cut the 6R140 bellhousing.

Once I got that done, I returned to working on turbo positions.

Here is where I think things are going to end up. The HE351VE is now mounted in its final position via a plate. The S475 is hanging by straps, pending exact starter placement. There is just enough room to cram everything on the side of the engine. No extra.

While it looks as though you could move the HE351 back, then it would be very difficult to get cold air into the S475. Spaced the way they are, there is just enough room to get a cold air feed in there.

I probably won't relocate the oil filter.











I think everything will fit in the truck quite nicely.

The HE351 hangs out about 16 inches from the side of the engine.

The F350 cowl hangover lines up approximately with the edge of the inlet on the S475.

The hot pipe and cold pipe will be straight forward to make.

The 5 inch air inlet to the S475 will have a couple bends, but nothing dramatic. The air cleaner will end up on the passenger fenderwell somewhere.

The HE351 compressor outlet, when rotoated lines up well with the stock Ford intercooler pipe.

There is lots of room between the S475 outlet and the HE351 inlet to implement an interstage charge cooler at a later date.

There isn't going to be much room between the starter and the underside of the turbine on the S475. The hardest part is going to be routing the oil drain from the underside of the S475 to the pan connection in the block. The reason being that the starter is going to block the path. But I am sure I'll work it out. I'm hoping that there will be space between the starter and the block.

Anyone know of a DIY spray on coating for the turbo turbine housings and exhaust manifold ? I'll use wrap on the hot pipe and maybe the cold pipe too, but I have nothing to cover the turbine housings and exhaust manifold.

BTW, I love the engine stand. I really like working on the engine and not being on the floor. And its very stable too.

Last edited by me2; 06-05-2012 at 07:49 PM.
  #150  
Old 06-05-2012, 08:41 PM
oildigger oildigger is offline
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I had remembered reading about a guy working for ATS swapping a 6.7 cummins into an 07 F250 and having twin turbos. He had a 62mm over S475 turbo. Here is the link to one of the magazine articles that covered it. Hope it helps.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/features/...que/index.html
  #151  
Old 06-06-2012, 09:25 AM
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After sleeping on it for the night, I am not sure that I like the HE351 hanging way out to the side like it does.

Will it work/ fit like that ? Probably.

Is it elegant ? Not really. The thing I dislike most is that the HE351 is going to take up quite a bit or most of the passenger side engine compartment. I did some measuring and the passenger battery will definitely have to be moved. Seems like a waste of precious space.

It wouldn't take me long to weld up a custom exhaust manifold. Nothing fancy, just 6 short exhaust ports into a central pipe. Constant diameter throughout, maybe 1 taper down for cylinders 1 and 6.

The problem is, I don't know where else to put the HE351 that makes it any better. The constraints are
- turbos cant protrude above the valve cover for height reasons
- HE351 actutor needs to be pretty much level for proper oil drainage
- must make room for the starter on the passenger side
- there is more width available at the front of the engine compartment than at the back
- there is more width available up high in the engine compartment than down low

Tucking the HE351 down under the exhaust manifold at the front means I would have to relocate the oil filter and the HE351 would have to move back about 6 inches to clear the back of the alternator and A/C compressor. I could move the alternator to the other side fairly easily. Going under the manifold instead of side to side like it is now would decrease the overall width by 4 inches. Is it worth it ?

Ideas ? Feedback ?

Last edited by me2; 06-06-2012 at 09:32 AM.
  #152  
Old 06-06-2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by oildigger View Post
I had remembered reading about a guy working for ATS swapping a 6.7 cummins into an 07 F250 and having twin turbos. He had a 62mm over S475 turbo. Here is the link to one of the magazine articles that covered it. Hope it helps.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/features/...que/index.html
Nice truck. Thanks for the link. I hadn't seen this one before.

I like how clean the engine compartment is.
  #153  
Old 06-06-2012, 12:26 PM
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I did more test fitting to see if I could achieve a better engine package size and fit.

In this round I pretended that I was making my own manifold and mounted the HE351 as if there was a manifold with a side port between cylinders 2 and 3.

This positioning puts the turbocharger about an inch above the lowered valve cover, meaning there is about 2 inches between it and the hood. If I made my own narrow manifold, I could shave about 4 inches off the width of the engine package and have even better pipe routes to boot.





I think this is a much nicer package.

I think I am going to make my own exhaust manifold from 2 x 2 x 3/16" square tubing. It will be placed directly on the port plates and have internal diverters to ensure smooth blending of the exhaust flow from each of the cylinders.

It won't be as good flow wise as a custom, round pipe manifold, but it should still work well and it will fit my application much better than anything I can find to buy. The custom manifold will also allow me to raise the rear turbo about an inch.

FYI, the 6.7 manifold has 1.5" round ports.

I'm also probably going to cut off the compressor outlet on the S475 and TIG on an aluminum elbow.

I was asked why I have the rear turbo so high. The answer is that the starter needs to go beneath it. "But on other conversions the starter is much lower than that." I know. Because I'm using the starter ring gear and most of the flex plate from the Ford application and the 6R140 bellhousing has a slight cut out for the starter at about 2:45 when viewed from the rear, it has to go where the starter ring and bellhousing place it. That being tucked up tight to the block underneath the rear turbo.

I need parts water cut to build the manifold. I also need a bunch of parts water cut for the transmission adapter. I'm hunkering down to do a whole bunch of CAD work.

FWIW, if I had the resources, I'd have a CNC plasma table. I was going to build one before I started this project but stopped when I realized that I didn't have room to store it.

Are you guys sick of this stuff yet ?

Last edited by me2; 06-06-2012 at 12:48 PM.
  #154  
Old 06-06-2012, 01:01 PM
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Are you guys sick of this stuff yet ?
Not yet!
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  #155  
Old 06-06-2012, 01:32 PM
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Are you going to wastegate the VGT turbo?
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:40 PM
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Are you going to wastegate the VGT turbo?
Not initially. I want to see what the backpressures are like with it in the compound configuration first.
  #157  
Old 06-06-2012, 05:50 PM
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My thought is that the backpressure will be too high and that the S475 will be starving for energy. You'll probably have to wastegate it right from the manifold and exit in to the turbine inlet of the S475.
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:59 PM
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My thought is that the backpressure will be too high and that the S475 will be starving for energy. You'll probably have to wastegate it right from the manifold and exit in to the turbine inlet of the S475.
It will be easy to do that if I need to. And if I do, I'll use the wastegate control valve from a 7.3 to control the opening and closing of the wastegate, via a micro controller using CAN data.

However, the HE351 supposedly has a 19cm housing, which shouldn't be that restrictive. I suspect that the high backpressure that has been observed is more due to pushing the compressor out of its map than anything. Within its map, the drive pressure should be reasonable.

I guess we'll see when I get it running and start tuning it.

I'm installing pressure and temperature sensors in the cold pipe so that I know what each turbo is doing independently.
  #159  
Old 06-07-2012, 06:56 PM
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I'm working on a console shifter setup. I'll post pictures when it looks like something.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:50 AM
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I have several projects on the go today.

Mount 5th Wheel Hitch

My wife wants our 5er at the house this weekend so that we can prep it for next weekend's camping trip. I plan to pull it with my F350, so I need to get the 5th wheel hitch mounted in it.

I used a Hijacker SL16 dual pivot hitch in my old truck. I found a set of used bed rails for it, so I plan to use it in my new truck as well. It will be handy to have 2 trucks to be able to hook onto the trailer as I cannot leave a trailer unattached to a truck parked on our street.

I've had my SL16 since 1999. I love it because it uses a drawbar and thus its impossible to accidently mis hitch and drop the trailer.

My old truck (F250, 5.9CR, ZF6) is still able to puller the 5er, but its in rough condition right now due to theft damage and thus I until I do some work on it, I only use it occassionally around town.

Console Shifter

I need a way to conveniently trigger my CAN Bus data logger and sooner or later I need a shift lever to manually control the 6R140 when its in manual shifting mode, so I started working on this.

The truth is that I'm a transmission shifting control freak and I dearly miss my ZF6. I plan to program my transmission controller with several operating modes, covering from full auto to full manual. I expect to be in full manual mode when towing in demanding conditions.





The plan is to have a 2 positon electronic shifter (forward = up, back = down) built into the console with buttons on the shift knob for various other functions.

I originally tried adapting the knob to an arcade joystick controller, but for a number of reasons I abandoned that effort and am now making the shift mechanism from scratch.



I'll post pictures when my scratch built shifter looks like something.

I will retain the column shifter for the purpose of shifting the valve body and such. The console shifter will be electronic only, for upshifting and downshifting in various modes.

I will be upgrading the column shifter from the 08 shift lever (with a tow haul button only) to the '11 shift lever with tow haul and up/down shift buttons.

I am not using the column shifter up/down buttons for shifting the 6R140 because I don't like the positioning and I want to use the up/down buttons on the column shifter to change the exhaust braking and transmission shifting characteristics, like its done in a Volvo truck with their iShift system.

While I have the console out of the truck and apart, I'll be mounting Ford 120VAC power outlets in it. I'm mounting an inverter in the truck and I need outlets mounted in the console to distribute the power so passengers can power their various electronic gizmos.

CAD Work

I'm still drafting up the various parts I need water cut. I'm trying to all the parts I need for everything all at once and I'm having to make a lot of decisions as I go. Its a slow process.

The slowest part of it all is that I have to make a mock transmission adapter from wood to double check everything and to make sure that the placement of the starter works for both the engine and the transmission bellhousing.

And, in my spare time, I am working on the CAN Bus stuff.

I've warned my wife that I need to work continuously on stuff this weekend to get this project back on track. She told me she has lots of independent things planned such that I'll have uninterrupted time.

Last edited by me2; 06-08-2012 at 10:03 AM.
  #161  
Old 06-08-2012, 10:46 AM
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Why not remove the column shifter all together and shift the valve body using a servo much like what many of the over the road automatic trucks use - specifically like the Allison 1000 in the box van trucks?
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  #162  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
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Why not remove the column shifter all together and shift the valve body using a servo much like what many of the over the road automatic trucks use - specifically like the Allison 1000 in the box van trucks?
The column shifter is plug and play. And its simple.

If I remove it I have to relocate the tow haul switch and find a place for the up/down button on it that I want to use for exhaust braking. I like how Volvo does it on their iShift and this positioning is similar.

And if I use a servo then I have to have a shift lever with Park, Neutral, Reverse, Drive, etc. There certainly isn't room for that on the column shifter I am building. There is barely enough room for up and down positions between the lid and the cupholder.

And I like the idea of using the column shifter to set the gear(valve body) and then using the console shifter to tailor it or change modes. In auto mode anyone can jump in my truck, throw it in Drive and drive it just like any other truck.

This is my third kick at the shifting setup. Another thing I tried was the floor shifter setup from a (cough) Toyota Tundra (cough). I could probably make it work and it has a really nice shift flow to it, but I would have to give up the floor space between the console and the lower dash and that is too precious. I have stuff that goes there.

There are obviously many ways to do this. Each to their own. If I find I dislike my setup, I can always change it later.

Last edited by me2; 06-08-2012 at 11:49 AM.
  #163  
Old 06-08-2012, 01:51 PM
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Do you have some pics and or part number for the 110v outlets? I have not located any that I like yet. Thanks.
  #164  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:03 PM
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Why not remove the column shifter all together and shift the valve body using a servo much like what many of the over the road automatic trucks use - specifically like the Allison 1000 in the box van trucks?
Just so that there is no mis interpretation, I better explain a few things.

The 6R140 and others like it shift with 2 sets of controls.

The first is the valve body. In a Superduty a mechanical cable connects the column shift lever to a shaft in the valve body. When you move the lever, the shaft selects various gear options such as Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive, etc by moving the valve body shaft and changing the oil flow in the valve body.

However, nothing except limp mode works by the valve body alone. Once the valve body position is selected, the transmission control unit takes over and sets the line pressure and controls the various shift solenoids, which control the oil supply to the various clutches.

The TCU knows which shift position the driver has selected via a sender connected to the valve body shaft. The valve body makes oil pressure pressure available to the various clutches and shift solenoids for the option selected (Park, Reverse, Neutral..) and its up to the TCU to provide the right pressure and volumes to the clutches at the right time to effect good transmission operation.

So when HRT asks me about using a servo on the valve body, he is speaking about replacing the column shift lever and cable with an actuator that can be controlled electronically to select Park, Neutral... Drive.

Even though I am using the column shift lever and the driver is manually selecting the "gear", ie Park, Neutral... Drive, when the driver puts the transmission in Drive, my transmission controller will still have full control over the operation of the transmission for all the forward gears. It won't be able to put the transmission in Reverse, because that requires a valve body shaft movement. But it can shift 1st, 2nd... 6th, anyway it desires.

Thus the need for the console shifter. Within the Drive option will be several sub options, some of which will allow the driver full manual control over gear selection. The console shifter will allow the driver to command an upshift or downshift in those modes.

You guys probably knew this already, but there it is anyway.

Last edited by me2; 06-08-2012 at 02:19 PM.
  #165  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:26 PM
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Do you have some pics and or part number for the 110v outlets? I have not located any that I like yet. Thanks.
It took me 3 trial orders to get these.








About $13 each from a Ford dealer. They kept getting the round 12V outlets instead. They are from a 2011 Superduty.

As far as I can tell they are only available in black. They are made to snap into a squarish hole.

The cover says 150 Watts. I'm not sure if that is the limit of the Ford inverter or the plug. Or both. I believe that Superduties with the factory inverter only have one outlet The connecting pins are pretty small.

I have not found pigtails for them. A Ford partsman claims to have found a pigtail for them, but I am not convinced that its the right one and he wants $65 for it. Doesn't seem right. I'm tired of ordering obscure parts.

If you cut off the connector shell plastic around the pins, they protrude about half an inch into a cavity.

I haven't tried to figure out the pinouts yet. I have the 2011 wiring diagrams and I will eventually.

I am probably going to put 4 outlets in my truck.

- One inside the console so that we can charge something and have it out of sight from tempting someone to take it.
- One coming out the back of the console for people in the back seat to use. The only place I can see to do this is to replace the round 12V outlet, which won't look quite right or mount it on the flat part of the rear cupholders on the console, haven't decided this yet.
- One somewhere on the front of the console so that the passenger can plug something in without having it plugged into the dash.
- One replacing the round 12V outlet in the dash as we never use it anyway.

I always find decisions like this hard to make and I hate cutting up my truck for fear of making a mistake. Thus I dislike doing things like this.

I am looking for a HD covered 120V outlet for the truck bed. A partsman tells me that the Ranger based SUV vehicle came with one once, but he can't find a part number. I know that some Toyota trucks have a 120VAC outlet in the bed.

FYI, I am powering my outlets with a Xantex 1000 watt pure sine inverter. I'll be mounting it to the back wall of the cab.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by me2; 06-08-2012 at 02:54 PM.
  #166  
Old 06-08-2012, 02:52 PM
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Inverter Wiring Warning

One thing to note about inverters is that if you are connecting anything to a computer that connects to the ground on the truck, you have to check that the inverter ground is the same voltage as the truck ground.

Take the EFI Live programmer, for example. The programming tool is USB based, which means that it connects to the computer ground. And the programming tool also connects to the CAN Bus connector, which has vehicle ground.

So if you have a laptop running via its battery charger from the inverter and you have the EFI Live programmer plugged into the CAN Bus port and connected to the computer, you have connected the inverter ground to the truck chassis ground.

Sometimes this works just fine and sometimes it will fry either the laptop or the charger or the programming tool. Or maybe all three ! Before you do something like that, you need to verify that the inverter ground is at the same voltage as the chassis ground, even with a load connected. Some/most inverters tie the AC output ground to the 12VDC input (chassis) ground, but some don't.

I haven't looked at the Xantrex 1000 yet, but I have a Xantrex Prosine 2.5 in our trailer and it has a dedicated chassis connection to tie the AC ground to chassis ground. Every inverter is probably a bit different in this regard.

The same thing applies to other devices powered by the inverter, such as oscilloscopes and stand alone scan tools.

Hope this helps someone.
  #167  
Old 06-08-2012, 04:33 PM
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The plan is to have a 2 positon electronic shifter (forward = up, back = down) built into the console with buttons on the shift knob for various other functions.
Some time ago I worked on a transmission and control system for a Baja racing team. We were using the 4R100 trans, which was the newest trans at the time.

We used a manual shifter to set the manual valve in the valve body, and then an electrical switch to upshift and downshift. We used an industrial switch that I think I bought at Graingers. This switch had a 2" tall lever and only had about a half inch of travel. We also had it set for forward was upshift and rearward was downshift.

You probably won't run into the problem we found. This truck had MONSTER brakes, and under hard braking the driver couldn't pull the shifter back to get a downshift! We swapped the wires so he could push to get an downshift. This was MUCH easier under race conditions.

It
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