600% nozzles???

elrodalexander73 · Jan 1, 2015

Who here has ran larger nozzles, 400% and larger, what are the benefits, and how many sets actually exist with nozzles this large, this is speculation only, not a thread to hate on heui, we all know the power potential of P'pump engines and what they have proved, just wondering what larger nozzles can prove in the future with head flow development.

psduser1 · Jan 1, 2015

I've heard rumor of 600/600% injectors, pretty sure they were competition only. I'd think idle quality would be marginal, as in somewhere around 1000 rpm +/-.

elrodalexander73 · Jan 1, 2015

At this point I wouldn't be too worried about idle quality for big power, the P'pump engines that are 13mm/14mm quick rate cammed engines don't idle too smooth either. I know the biggest issue is getting enough oil in and out, would BTS, Gen3, Termies be enough. I think to myself, how much would it cost to machine out a custom set of plungers and barrels, armetues and intensifier pistons to really move the fuel, and then not to mention have a real oil sytem to support them.. If someone could make it work for under say 8k dollars and crack some big numbers it might be worth it.. Bottom line is it possible to make 2.6/2.8 power, or is P'pump the future, I've seen a few more keep popping up, but I know the cost is substantial. I know the P'pump is relentless but if dog rabbit.

Groomzybanshee · Jan 1, 2015

Swamps use to sell 450/600s I'm pretty sure they made less power than 450/400s. I ran some 650/400s that were a lower ratio than a normal hybrid. They sucked.

Inj I ran where not swamps. Just so there's no confusion.

elrodalexander73 · Jan 1, 2015

Thats the input I'm looking for, how many years ago was that Groomzy?? I'm just wondering what kinda fuel the 650s woulda flowed with say 600% nozzles or would the fuel molecules be too large for any good power to be made??

Magnum PD · Jan 1, 2015

Getting that kinda fuel to empty and refilled again would also be the challenge at high RPMS.

Groomzybanshee · Jan 1, 2015

elrodalexander73 said:
Thats the input I'm looking for, how many years ago was that Groomzy?? I'm just wondering what kinda fuel the 650s woulda flowed with say 600% nozzles or would the fuel molecules be too large for any good power to be made??

There just wasn't something right in my injectors no nozzle would have helped. They were like a 4:1 ratio . We ran icp up to 4k or so. And nothing. Junk waste of money and a lot of time trying to tune them. I gave up on trying to make power with a 7.3 in the 2.6 class. To much ci not enough fuel.

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Jan 1, 2015

When we had 600% nozzles dual pumps and 400+ cc bodies it ran like sh*t. Ran much better with 400%.

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Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Jan 1, 2015

Groomzybanshee said:
Swamps use to sell 450/600s I'm pretty sure they made less power than 450/400s. I ran some 650/400s that were a lower ratio than a normal hybrid. They sucked.

Inj I ran where not swamps. Just so there's no confusion.

Exactly.... The 450/600's did not work. Neither did the larger bodies.

No matter what you do they cannot be actuated fast enough.

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04stroker · Jan 1, 2015

Carson tried the 600% nozzles in his puller as well switched back to the 400%.

Magnum PD · Jan 1, 2015

Too much fuel to get in a split second?

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto · Jan 1, 2015

Magnum PD said:
Too much fuel to get in a split second?

No, you can inject a lot more fuel. Just not with a heui injector. The idea of 600% nozzle was to help it empty faster so it could have more time to refill. Just never really worked that good. Never really atomized well in the truck. 400% ran cleaner and made a lot more power.

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lincolnlocker · Jan 1, 2015

Magnum PD said:
Getting that kinda fuel to empty and refilled again would also be the challenge at high RPMS.

that is the way i always understood it... you can have all the cc's in the world with the biggest nozzles but it isnt possible to refill it enough to maintain nozzle pressure for atomization. hence why everyone is saying less power than 400%nozzles... we'll see what hrt's prototypes will bring us hopefully soon.. 750cc's of fuel.. still heui to boot.. only thing i can think of is that he has somehow designed the fuel system to feed each injector individualy like a ppump would do... i dont see the stock fuel rails even coming close to filling those injectors in the time needed to utilize it all...

live life full throttle

OBS-Addiction97 · Jan 1, 2015

lincolnlocker said:
that is the way i always understood it... you can have all the cc's in the world with the biggest nozzles but it isnt possible to refill it enough to maintain nozzle pressure for atomization. hence why everyone is saying less power than 400%nozzles... we'll see what hrt's prototypes will bring us hopefully soon.. 750cc's of fuel.. still heui to boot.. only thing i can think of is that he has somehow designed the fuel system to feed each injector individualy like a ppump would do... i dont see the stock fuel rails even coming close to filling those injectors in the time needed to utilize it all...

live life full throttle

Sounds awesome, 750cc is a big mother.

opcorn:

Groomzybanshee · Jan 1, 2015

I hope hrts injectors work.. But the 650s I ran looked kick ass on the flow bench also.. Delivered a lot of fuel. Just flat out didnt work.

elrodalexander73 · Jan 1, 2015

At 600% I believe its a control issue, when the needle lifts and exposes the orfices inside tip the fuel is then release so soon that the flow go from a solid mist to a steady stream, but my theory is this... With an extremely large quantity of fuel per shot, more fuel per stroke you have more fuel to move, the needle doesn't just open and shut, the injection pressure is lower but the return spring that controls the needle circuit controls the start and stop of this function regulating the amount of fuel to be injected per shot. IF we move more fuel pershot, like HRT did, then at that point you can have and equal injection pressure I beleive with 400/400s. The problem here I think is oil... Its like trying to move 20 gallons of water through a 1 inch water hose and then trying to shove 50 in the same amount of time... Now we try to move 100 through a 2 inch hose in the same amount of time.. Here again, say the length of the hose is 20 feet, how fast does the water move, and does it come out in a steady stream the same way it did with 50 or 20 with a 1inch hose?? Pressure and volume go hand in hand with orfice size I believe, but my theories may be way off.

lincolnlocker · Jan 2, 2015

elrodalexander73 said:
At 600% I believe its a control issue, when the needle lifts and exposes the orfices inside tip the fuel is then release so soon that the flow go from a solid mist to a steady stream, but my theory is this... With an extremely large quantity of fuel per shot, more fuel per stroke you have more fuel to move, the needle doesn't just open and shut, the injection pressure is lower but the return spring that controls the needle circuit controls the start and stop of this function regulating the amount of fuel to be injected per shot. IF we move more fuel pershot, like HRT did, then at that point you can have and equal injection pressure I beleive with 400/400s. The problem here I think is oil... Its like trying to move 20 gallons of water through a 1 inch water hose and then trying to shove 50 in the same amount of time... Now we try to move 100 through a 2 inch hose in the same amount of time.. Here again, say the length of the hose is 20 feet, how fast does the water move, and does it come out in a steady stream the same way it did with 50 or 20 with a 1inch hose?? Pressure and volume go hand in hand with orfice size I believe, but my theories may be way off.

its been beat to death over the years... hopefully hrt has got something up his sleeve to make those big mofo's work right.. basically would make a 7.3 a bit more competitive..

live life full throttle

PSDEng · Jan 2, 2015

Morgan@Midwest Diesel & Auto said:
Exactly.... The 450/600's did not work. Neither did the larger bodies.

No matter what you do they cannot be actuated fast enough.

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Exactly. The problem isn't necessarily in the mechanics of the injector it's in the electronics.

Tim @ P.I.S. · Jan 2, 2015

Lots of ideas have been tried in the past and so far nothing successful. We had a set run through here a few years ago 400cc/900%. Guess what, barely flowed more than a 400%. Point is it takes more than just swapping nozzles to make these injectors fast. We have 600% as well as 800% nozzles here. But until we are 100% happy with the results we will not release them. We have a list a mile long waiting on us to have these ready.

If and when the 800% nozzles do prove to work as designed, then the 7.3 can be compedative. First hurdle is the 600% nozzle. Some people have been working for years on other advancements, we know what needs to happen and are working on it. We have smaller injectors that operate fairly quickly with fairly small nozzles now. They work perfect when tuned accordingly.

OBS-Addiction97 · Jan 2, 2015

With a Injector that big is getting enough HPO going to be a major issue?

Here my theory.. I'm probably completly wrong but, no matter what hpop set up you run and at X psi, only so much oil can enter the oil side of the injector.