HPOP testing process/standard

[mandkole]

Does anyone use HPO pump test rigs? Aftermarket pump upgrades are continuing to become more available and its driving more and more people to think that they need a new pump. Being able to document pump performance would be a good thing, even if its standardized measurement.

There are a lot of variables that support a pumps ability to make pressure/deliver oil on a given truck (PW% command, tuning, injector type, pump performance, system seal), but having a standardized test pressure measurement would help everyone compare pumps a little better than someone saying 'it works great on my truck'.

Where do the marketers/manufacturers of pumps sit on this?

 

[Derek@Vision Diesel]

I assume every pump is tested before it leaves, why numbers don't ever get thrown around is beyond me.

nice signature by the way, that BONE STOCK 17* PUMP is sure a nice addition

 

[thuglike]

Does anyone use HPO pump test rigs? Aftermarket pump upgrades are continuing to become more available and its driving more and more people to think that they need a new pump. Being able to document pump performance would be a good thing, even if its standardized measurement.

There are a lot of variables that support a pumps ability to make pressure/deliver oil on a given truck (PW% command, tuning, injector type, pump performance, system seal), but having a standardized test pressure measurement would help everyone compare pumps a little better than someone saying 'it works great on my truck'.

Where do the marketers/manufacturers of pumps sit on this?

Excellent point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can make ANY pump look likes it's failing by increasing PW BUT..

I think at this point an upgraded pump is looked at like a fuel system....do you really need it....maybe not
but it's a foundation mod guys do so they can build on top of it later without worry.

We will be posting plenty of data in our thread......the second I can get Jon from running around like a madman and send it to me.

 

[mandkole]

Jason, awesome--that would be great to see and its good to hear that you've already been heading down this path. Someday having a pump bench performance standard that matches an application would be real cool for a buying customer.

 

[V-Ref]

I'm in for info on this as well....great topic to start.

AE graph from my combo....and while it demonstrates excellent response to throttle postion....without the PW being commanded...it's not the complete picture...

Orange-IPR DC%
Red-Accel %
Blue-Engine RPM
Liberal Democratic Tree Hugger Dirt Worshiper Drain from the System Until it Fails Green-ICP

 

[Tom S]

Seems to me that it would be pretty easy to make a rig that would run hot oil with a flow and pressure meter and a way to restrict it.. See how much it flows at say 2800 psi and that would pretty much make for a level playing field if the goal was to compare it at one parameter.

 

[m j]

the pumps are fixed displacement.
there is pretty much zero magic to them.

 

[V-Ref]

I agree on the fixed displacement pump....and I say just rate them like that. Use a stock 17* as the defacto standard...and go from there. Example: SRP1=140%, Dual pumps=200%, BTS=200%, Gen3=???%, T500=???%, T1000=???%, etc

I don't even know if those numbers are right above...just and example of how they could be rated by the consumer/mfg.

Tom S

Maybe this thread could turn into a resource for folks to post up the results of thier pump....and you'd moderate it to keep it from becoming a food fight.

Im ASSuming the most demanding condition for our HPOPs would be a combination of low engine rpm (and resulting low pump rpm), and "higher" ICP and "longer" PW. It seems in my truck, the HPOP only responds quicker to ICP/PW....and with less duty cycle, and higher RPMs. So I'm assuming while at higher rpms, while there are more injection events for the pump to accomdate....the lower rpm region, taxes the pump greater than higher rpms regions. Smart guys...keep me in check if I'm wrong here.

So below, I put the truck in 6th gear at about 45, and stabbed the throttle for about 4 seconds. Once I saw the the IPR Duty Cycle wasn't increasing..and was stabilized, I backed out. That took about 4 seconds. The little arrows show min/max values...kind of a "poor mans" ISSPRO Performax guage cluster....This was in a tune labled "Tow Tune" that calls for a max ICP at around 2600-2700.

So if folks would keep the engine rpm<2000....and as high a gear as they could, with a higher PW tune....you'd be able to see a real comparison on HPOP performance. That's why I'd say engine speed would need to be known too...'cause if you ran a pump at 2000 engine rpm (I forget the pump to engine rpm ratio)...and crept in the PW/ICP.....it doesn't really task the pump, as if you demand max PW/ICP instantaneously from a low pump RPM region. Hope my babbling makes sense.

I think folks with a scan guage, Torque, or just observing guages could come up with the data I'm posting below...

So here's what folks could post:
------
Inj Nozzle size:200%
HPOP: Stealth Stage 2
Max PW: 3.275 ms
Max DC%: 36%
Max ICP: 2650 psi
Max Engine RPM:1660
Misc: 4 line kit, Oil temp 125 F, Mobil 1 Syn

 

[CSIPSD]

I'll add the Injector PW today and get a shot as I am moving back up to Bellingham...

 

[Tom S]

I agree on the fixed displacement pump....and I say just rate them like that. Use a stock 17* as the defacto standard...and go from there. Example: SRP1=140%, Dual pumps=200%, BTS=200%, Gen3=???%, T500=???%, T1000=???%, etc

I don't even know if those numbers are right above...just and example of how they could be rated by the consumer/mfg.

Tom S

Maybe this thread could turn into a resource for folks to post up the results of thier pump....and you'd moderate it to keep it from becoming a food fight.

Im ASSuming the most demanding condition for our HPOPs would be a combination of low engine rpm (and resulting low pump rpm), and "higher" ICP and "longer" PW. It seems in my truck, the HPOP only responds quicker to ICP/PW....and with less duty cycle, and higher RPMs. So I'm assuming while at higher rpms, while there are more injection events for the pump to accomdate....the lower rpm region, taxes the pump greater than higher rpms regions. Smart guys...keep me in check if I'm wrong here.

So below, I put the truck in 6th gear at about 45, and stabbed the throttle for about 4 seconds. Once I saw the the IPR Duty Cycle wasn't increasing..and was stabilized, I backed out. That took about 4 seconds. The little arrows show min/max values...kind of a "poor mans" ISSPRO Performax guage cluster....This was in a tune labled "Tow Tune" that calls for a max ICP at around 2600-2700.

From the playing around I have done in this area you are right in that a pump that quickly builds and hold pressure is a big deal. That is where a lot of the driveability and throttle response comes from. If you start graphing out some data it becomes a lot more clear. The post I made earlier is going to more map out the displacement and efficiency at a set RPM.

 

[mandkole]

My initial thought was something that would better match a pump to an application, understand relative output rates between build levels, and give the seller something comparative to sell. Hopefully, we'll also uncover more of the 'system' related issues and their role in good ICP delivery (injector seal, injector performance, etc).

Using the scan gauge, I'll also try to more closely track ICP vs. DC of my stocker. Once upon a time, it was back to back compared to an aftermarket pump in datalogs with superior results (dont have that data).

 

[Garbage_Mechanic]

Having 35 years of hydraulic experience and some training on the subject, sometimes the whole HPOP pissing match gets pretty laughable to me.
The basic measurement of pump performance is displacement. Displacement x RPM generally indicates flow. In the basic terms we have a fixed displacement piston pump. So many cc's of oil per revolution (on paper) We control the system pressure with a pulse width modulation controlled "leak" in the system. That being said there are many variables that can affect the actual output. Pump efficiency, that is how much internal leakage, flow restrictions on the inlet or outlet, cavitation, oil viscosity are all factors that change the performace of the pump itself. Add to this the variables created by demand of the system (8 little hydraulic cylinders cycling rapidly) and any efficiency issues such as worn injectors, oring leaks and the fact we can program the usage differently and comparing one truck to another is folly. We can compare some similar set ups but from the point of hydraulic testing, there are too many variables

 

[Garbage_Mechanic]

Continuing on that thought, the proper way to test a pump with it NOT connected to the system is serves, because if there are any variances in the system it will affect the outcome. In the hydraulic world, a controlled temp standardized oil would be used. The RPM would be controlled, inlet vacuum would be controlled and the the GPM and pressure recorded at various engine rpm. Now we really will know what pump does what.