Stainless steel injector cups

13fist

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
125
Reaction score
6
Location
MT
I'm curious about what's wrong with the RiffRaff SS injector cups. What failures have happened and what was the cause of the failure?
I have been considering using them for a build.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
141
Reaction score
9
Location
Maryland
Thank you Tomlin.
I did in fact, be the one who jumped into the then understood situation.
My at the time with over 3 decades of experience over top of a degree from a place in Cambridge Massachusetts. I resolved the then “ misunderstood by some/ issue that was hoped to be an offset #s play out with production.
Reality came down to on average .001-..002 difference in exhaust valve stem to exhaust valve guide clearance that made the difference between one truck or another. I was brought in after identifying the stem expansion/stiction issue. It became Oh S…! Well how can we do it on the cheap. Mmnnn.. No. You will not. We are accountable to the bean counters. We will try a flash that will not make the regen not as hot. Ok, will work for a few but it will not work across the board. Will not resold complete issue. It’s too tight. Well.. they tried a few different reflashes. Then it came back to the same. We are not going to have dealers sending heads out to bore open and try to bellmouth exhaust valve guides. Stick with the reflash and one comes back, they get the new heads, now with more stem to guide clearance to allow for the exhaust stem expansion during the blast furnace effect while open and not in it’s guide that would “ normally” act as a heat sink.

As to Corey, the president of CNC Fabrication, which I have no affiliation with, I have watched that man grow that business from its infancy to what it is now with total knowledge of every aspect, honesty, truth and hard work. Frankly that means a very good bit.
 

ghohouston

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
4,016
Reaction score
14
Location
Lewisville,Texas
Aren't 6.0 injector cups steel? Not sure if they're stainless steel or not, but they're definitely not brass like 7.3's. I've worked on hundreds of 6.0's and 7.3's and only ever seen cup failure on brass 7.3 cups.
 

Powerstroke Cowboy

Well-known member
Joined
May 20, 2011
Messages
3,981
Reaction score
91
Location
Montana
Aren't 6.0 injector cups steel? Not sure if they're stainless steel or not, but they're definitely not brass like 7.3's. I've worked on hundreds of 6.0's and 7.3's and only ever seen cup failure on brass 7.3 cups.
Yes, I believe they are steel. Dought they are stainless, just hard steel. Never tested one with a magnet though.
 

ghohouston

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
4,016
Reaction score
14
Location
Lewisville,Texas
I'm no metalurgist, nor am I anything more than a mechanic lol, but I really don't see why the steel ones wouldn't hold up. Again, only ever seen the brass cups crack. Every 6.0 I've ever seen put fuel in the coolant ended up being cracked heads.
 

Petro

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
1,182
Reaction score
27
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
I'm no metalurgist, nor am I anything more than a mechanic lol, but I really don't see why the steel ones wouldn't hold up. Again, only ever seen the brass cups crack. Every 6.0 I've ever seen put fuel in the coolant ended up being cracked heads.
Same here. Have yet to see a 6.0 cup failure but have replaced several heads that cracked right above the cup in the Injector bore. Never thought to check the cup material in a 6 leaker either.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
141
Reaction score
9
Location
Maryland
There was a reason why International chose to use brass with the 444 while inter-lapping years with the 466.
The wisdom there was????
It was just that… WISE.
Think….
Don’t a guesser. Look to science. It will bring you to the next level.
Do not present the question here looking for a quick answer. Go back into the books. Educate yourself as to why.
Always ask WHY WHY.
Often you will find the answers and become stronger in knowledge.
Go forth in research grasshoppers.
 

hucorey

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
537
Reaction score
12
Location
Defiance, Ohio
Nearly all diesels use stainless cups (including the 6.0)....BUT you need to use special tooling to "roll them in" as we engine builders/engine machinists call it on the larger cups like a 7.3. Most people are not going to buy the $2000 in proper tooling from Irontite to do it, so hence why I highly recommend go with tried and true brass cups specifically on the 7.3.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

ghohouston

Active member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
4,016
Reaction score
14
Location
Lewisville,Texas
Nearly all diesels use stainless cups (including the 6.0)....BUT you need to use special tooling to "roll them in" as we engine builders/engine machinists call it on the larger cups like a 7.3. Most people are not going to buy the $2000 in proper tooling from Irontite to do it, so hence why I highly recommend go with tried and true brass cups specifically on the 7.3.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Would what you refer to be a "swedging" tool? Our Hino engine excavators at work have had some cup issues and we had to buy a "swedging" tool to replace them.
 

Petro

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
1,182
Reaction score
27
Location
Lincoln Nebraska
Nearly all diesels use stainless cups (including the 6.0)....BUT you need to use special tooling to "roll them in" as we engine builders/engine machinists call it on the larger cups like a 7.3. Most people are not going to buy the $2000 in proper tooling from Irontite to do it, so hence why I highly recommend go with tried and true brass cups specifically on the 7.3.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Thanks for actually answering the questions and not typing out multiple useless paragraphs bragging about how intelligent you are and how much experience you have. Much appreciated.
 

PSD POWER007

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
471
Reaction score
7
Location
Columbus, GA
I installed RiffRaff stainless cup in my 7.3 a couple hundred thousand miles ago. I own the RR injector cup tool for removing/installing. I’ve never had a problem. I tow all the time fairly heavy too. Just my $0.1/2
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
141
Reaction score
9
Location
Maryland
That is a lot of miles in a relatively short amount of time. Have you always driven that many miles? Did you buy the truck when it was new? How many miles are on it now?
 

hucorey

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
537
Reaction score
12
Location
Defiance, Ohio
Would what you refer to be a "swedging" tool? Our Hino engine excavators at work have had some cup issues and we had to buy a "swedging" tool to replace them.
Here's a YouTube video from Irontite for one of these tools. We have nearly all variations because we do so many different engines.



Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
141
Reaction score
9
Location
Maryland
That’s a lot of tooling for $2k when compared to that cutting bit and fixture to oversized bore transmission pump bores, from Sonnax which is also $2k.
Frickin’ tool makers getting together in Las Vegas, dining, getting drunk and collectively conspiring and market price fixing!!!
The Horror!!!
 

lincolnlocker

Well-known member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
27,489
Reaction score
61
Location
Central Michigan
Nearly all diesels use stainless cups (including the 6.0)....BUT you need to use special tooling to "roll them in" as we engine builders/engine machinists call it on the larger cups like a 7.3. Most people are not going to buy the $2000 in proper tooling from Irontite to do it, so hence why I highly recommend go with tried and true brass cups specifically on the 7.3.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Thank you for the explanation as to why other than your ive built a gazillion things and you're a god to engines. Lmao! I do trust your word as well as you have been around for a long time. But in also know that clay will drop a product in a hurry if there are failures or issues with it. Not just keep selling the product because its the next best thing.
 

13fist

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Messages
125
Reaction score
6
Location
MT
That is a really neat set of tools. I mean, is there a man here that isn't a bit of a tool junkie?
I am curious if that is needed due to how cups are manufactured rather than the material used.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2015
Messages
141
Reaction score
9
Location
Maryland
From what I got from what the guy in the video was saying that the tool is needed to roll it into a serrated section the cup goes into the head.
While the 7.3 head has no serrated section in the head, International chose to use brass for that engine.
Their are thermal dynamic differences between brass and stainless. How much that played into their decision, I do not know. What I do know with regards to something that could dramatically negatively effect thermal dynamics is; on Riff Raff’s ( quite the name) website states that it is thicker in a section and makes it stronger. That’s a real issue. They also push their tool kit stating the traditional tap style removal tool sends brass shavings down into the cylinders. If you drop a dime down into the cup before using a tap type removal tool, that DOES NOT HAPPEN.
I’ve come behind a lot of DIYers that did cups with Riff Raff removal installation tools. The crank down process did not always completely seat the cup as it is hard to tell if it’s completely seated even when using a torque wrench as drag going in will vary with cups and bores. If you use the Rosewood Style driver, you hear and feel the thud of the cup bottoming out
 
Top