Fuel System with a different twist installed

I had posted this as part of my log thread over on PSN but figured I would post it here as IMO this is going to become more of an advanced board given the membership.


After a failure of a very popular pump with a traditional setup and then one trying the all in one FASS units along with the numerous results of others with failures of Walbro pumps for various reasons I decided to start with a clean slate and work the issues from the ground up. Basically I was not happy with any of the current wheels we use so I decided to reinvent a new one.

For more complete detailed info you can reference my build thread "The Never Ending Build" if you so choose



The issues again addressed are:

• high volume flow and high psi to support 80gph @ 75psi (800HP+)
• head fuel rail port size
• maximum flow thru heads and effectiveness of regulator to pressure and flow changes
• Pump cooling and lubrication
• Controlling fuel temp (ideal 60° F for max performance in BTU and lubricity)
• Eliminating 1/4 tank and below sloshing issues with intake of air
• Free-Air removal from turbulence and other causes that free entrained air
• Maximum removal of water and absolute particles down to 2-3 microns
• Minimize pump noise levels (stock or better)

First up will be a rough hand scribbled schematic I drew up when I was crunching all the info I had collected.


The fuel flow direction legends and hose make it look more complicated than it really is. When you break it down it only has a couple more connections than current systems and no more than a system using a Air Dog or FASS as a lift pump. Look at it for a bit and consider things like how the surge tank works and everything it actually does etc..

Look at the hose and flow routing carefully as its easy to misinterpret the flow and think there might be issues.




Then here are some of the pictures I took while I was putting it all together and installing it:

The pump is a Bosch 044 they are basically a unscaled version of our SD pump model


These next few are of the Surge tank. This one showing the pump and 3x-6an ORB ports



This one you can see a close up and see the O-ring inside to help seal the pump to the tank.


These next few show the pump surge tank with its clamping ring.


Jay Racing's Check valve installed on the Bosch pump's outlet.


Pump and surge tank and clamp ring and hardware.


Pump installed in the surge tank.


A few pictures right to left of Carter 4601 pump > Dahl 150> Surge tank with Bosch 044 pump on mounting plate.
Notice I have just a few left over fittings and supplies from all the testing :doh:




On separate mount the Baldwin 1311 filter base with Donaldson P551311 3 micron absolute single pass perf nominal should around 1 mic recommend flow rate 120 gph.


V10 Trans cooler to be used as the Fuel cooler mounted in grill/bumper.


C-Channel mounted to frame rail uses 3/8" locking spring nuts to mount fuel system plate to it.




The pump is a Bosch 044 pump. Its actually rated for constant pressure from 0-100 psi. There is very little effect on flow from pressure changes compared to many other pumps. But @ 70-75 psi it flows on average 80gph. It has the same internal build as our stock pumps just larger. Its about 25% larger than a Walbro. I learned a lot from speaking with a guy Kevin? at the Bosch tech dept.

The Carter 4600 series pumps have proven to be very durable and long lasting as they are a rotary vane pump so nothing to burn up. They are specifically marine and diesel rated. They are low pressure only and changes in it significantly effects the flow rates. 100 gph free flow which is how it is run in this system.

The Dahl 150 has a pressure resistance @ 80gph flow rate (its recommend flow rate) of 0.75 psi, so very small effect.


The Surge tank is tig welded alum tank. It has 3x -6an threaded ports and the pump port. The pump port is specific fit for the Bosch 044 pump it has a o-ring and works with the clamp again the ring/rim built into the Bosch pump case.

Surge tank has 1.5 liter accessible capacity for the pump (total internal capacity is closer to 3 liters. More could be accessed with the addition of a fitting to the pump inlet)
Dimensions external: 5.5"x8x"4.25"
It sets the pump so its 75% submerged
The 3 ports are -6an ORB threaded

Hoses are -10an from the 5/8 Tank pick up to the Carter. Carter is direct fit into the Dahl 150. _8an hose into the -6an port on the surge tank. -8an from the Bosch pump's check valve into the Baldwin Filter base. -6an hose to the Y . -6an hose into rear inspection port DI fittings on each head. -4an hose out the front top fuel ports exiting the heads into the regulator. -6an hose out the reg return port into the V-10 cooler. -6an hose out of cooler into the surge tank. -6an out of surge tank into old stock feed port on tank sending unit.

Each pump is wired to its own 30 amp Bosch relay that are fused protected from the feed line from the battery. Grounds go directly to battery - post and frame ground bolt. Factory fuel pump wiring harness used as control wires for the relays. All power and ground wires are 10 gauge ultra fine stranded wire.

Why did you chose to return the fuel from the cooler to the pump canister instead of the tank? I would have like to had a heat exchanger up front on my set up but room was short. I run one on the frame rail but I am sure the efficiency is lacking.

Wow. Great job Tarm! Is there a "foot" of any type on the pump? Or just an open port?

Tom S said:

Why did you chose to return the fuel from the cooler to the pump canister instead of the tank? I would have like to had a heat exchanger up front on my set up but room was short. I run one on the frame rail but I am sure the efficiency is lacking.

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It insures no matter what happens with the lift pumps flow that the most fuel is getting back to the main pump that is feeding the motor. That way only the fuel the motor is actually using is the deficit. With my setup I could technically run a return to the tank from the motor and a separate line back tot he tank from the surge tank but this with the turnover of the lift pump should keep a more consistent fuel temp going to the motor. Obviously if the cooler is not efficient enough and there woudl be a large disparity between the temp exiting the cooler and that of the tank fluid itself then going to the tank might be better. But at that point you then have the issue of if its that inefficient how much help is it to do anything in the first place as far as cooling. Given the performance of v10 or 6.0 coolers on on trans fluid which has far less total volume and is high viscosity and retains heat better so its harder to cool than fuel I am hoping and expecting (finger crossed) that its cooling will take it very close to ambient. The temps we see in tanks are from slow build up of heat and its being retained more than anything. If we can cool that considerably the mixing of the tank fuel with the return in the surge tank should create a fairly stable temp in relation to ambient temps.


That is what I have come to with all my thinking and going around in circles and the mouse on the wheel doing over time. LOL

I will be testing the temps. I do already have a secondary hose run from the factory return port on the tank's sending unit that is plugged currently. It is routed and zip tied by the surge tank. This way if needed I could use it as the surge return and connect the return lines going in and out of the surge together and have it running to the main tank.

Yes I spent way to much time planning and thinking thru all this. :fustrate:

JAP said:

Wow. Great job Tarm! Is there a "foot" of any type on the pump? Or just an open port?

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Its just an open inlet on the Bosch. If you look at the pump and way the ring and clamp work there is no need for it from a security stand point. 1.5 liters of accessible volume seemed to be good especially the way fuel flow is routed. But if I wanted to and I will likely do this anyways just because I like getting the most I will but a fitting on the inlet and that will gain me another .5 liter of volume it can pull from. Honestly the only real reason I did not do that was I forgot to order a fitting and they are metric M18x1.5 Most do not run a fitting but I would have as it can only benefit. Now if you for mounting purposed had to run the tank horizontal then for sure you would want a fitting with a 90 degree turned toward the bottom of the tank with the orb ports on top. That would get you a full 1.5 liters from what I can tell by the placements. I had no intention to mount it any what but vertical as that also offers the best air sep and least slosh.

BTW that is something else I really like about this pump compared to say a Walbro. It runs a larger inlet than outlet fitting port and they are of more reasonable size to the systems.

Thats cool as hell... I think I am going to pick up one of those carter pumps as a lift pump myself.

Whats the cost on that pump?

That Tarm, is bad azz! I just got all my parts together to do mine and now I see I need more. Thanks!

CSIPSD said:

Thats cool as hell... I think I am going to pick up one of those carter pumps as a lift pump myself.

Whats the cost on that pump?

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thanks

They are like 99-120 @ Jegs IIRC Not much at all.

Make sure to sue the little rubber grommets that come with it and a piece of rubber pad if you mount it directly to the rail. As you can see mine is right off the dahl. They are not loud at all from my experience stock pump level. Its actually the only one I hear when I turn on the key with the windows open. As soon as its started you can not hear a thing. The Bosch you can not hear at all unless you turned off the carter and got down on the ground or listened hard.

I know many of the Dodge guys that had those bad external lift pumps went to these when those died in the first year. The fact they are so basic and fully diesel rated is nice. Its also not a big cash outlay.

I went with the 4601 but you could do the 4600 as the only dif I could find is the pressure setting one is 6-8 the other is 14-16. But as a lift it will offer up to their free flow amount of 100 gph as needed. As the main pump pulls more the pressure will drop and the carters flow will increase.

Here's the Jegs link to them

http://www.jegs.com/p/Carter/Carter-Competition-Series-Electric-Fuel-Pumps/748050/10002/-1

Going to be ordering one of these shortly!

I'm sure I missed something in the reading but what keeps the pump from sucking fuel through the return line when the main tank is full? Is there a one way flow valve on the return line? I would think the pump will suck fuel from the line that has the least resistance, which would be the return line because there is no filter restriction.

How far below the frame rail is that 150 sitting?

That's pretty awesome. Nice job. Care to post prices on your setup?

i think tarm is like the smartest person like i've ever seen. are you an engineer by trade

Danm you know your fuel systems your gifted bro

Wow man, very thorough and well planned... never cease to im[ress me! Keep up the good work brother.

QtrHorse said:

I'm sure I missed something in the reading but what keeps the pump from sucking fuel through the return line when the main tank is full? Is there a one way flow valve on the return line? I would think the pump will suck fuel from the line that has the least resistance, which would be the return line because there is no filter restriction.

How far below the frame rail is that 150 sitting?

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Actually because you have positive flow from the hose coming from the carter you will automatically have the positive flow from it and you will have out going flow from the return hose to the tank. Now if there was no lift pump then yes it could be a crap shoot but in that case you would only run a setup like that if you ran a sump as the feed which again would give you positive pressure but in that case I would still consider a check valve. On the return from the regulator as you like already know it prevents backflow.

BTW I really like your questions on various things I have done. Many are ones I also asked myself and some I did not think of.

jdgleason said:

Wow man, very thorough and well planned... never cease to im[ress me! Keep up the good work brother.

Click to expand...

Thank you

bruce said:

i think tarm is like the smartest person like i've ever seen. are you an engineer by trade

Click to expand...

Thank you but no I am not on either account. LOL I honestly just took the time to look at all I had learned from guys on here like Marty, Dennis, HRT, Charles, etc where they had stated the various short comings and reasons etc.. Then went out and looked beyond the diesel world which is something I think we fail to do too often thinking out game is just too differnt. Found how other performance autos worked their systems and tried to find the best answers from all of them and then figure out how to apply it to our specific motor and vehicles.

As I stated on PSN - I really like this approach to a fuel system with the outside the box thinking. The thought of applying a surge tank to PSD fuel system never really occurred to me until you made this post - it does solve a tremendous amount of issues while giving some noticeable benefits as well. It makes me want to consider putting a surge tank in my next fuel system - with some minor changes and tweaks to fit my particular circumstances of course.

Nice!

Is there any reason you went with the 14/16psi output? The Dahl filters are designed to be on the suction side of a system - not a pressure side. Having positive pressure will decrease your filter efficiency and your filter life. That is what I was told by Baldwin - but I don't think you will notice. You could run a 2 micron filter in your Dahl and not affect your flow rate/efficiency. I would think with the positive pressure you would want to run the lower micron rating.

I also would like some pictures from the side of the truck and underneath all mounted up.

Sam

That woudl all be true if there was something creating the restriction that would cause pressure. There is nothing other than the Dahl itself creating any pressure and the Dahl 150 is rated to only create 0.75 psi of pressure per 80gph flow and I believe that is with the 2 mic filter where I am using a 30 mic version. Beyond the filter you have a surge tank that has no pressure. It has lines going back to the main tank so there is no pressure build up in that tank. Because of this setup that Carter pump has no pressure against it. Well it likely has about 1 psi. So while the dahl may not be in a vacuum its not under any real pressure either. Another fact is the Dahl 150 is rated for up to 25 psi.

BTW there is really no difference between the 6 psi 4600 and 16 psi 4601 Carter pumps other than what their internal reg is setup to. But per amount of pressure they flow the same amount and are the same pump itself.

So no pressure on the Dahl in this setup.

BTW I am using a 30 mic filter on the Dahl as I have a 3 for the final and want it staged. I could also use a 10 mic but for me wanted toe least effect to flow and wanted the best balance between filter changed of the two stages. Using the 2 mic they offer does not make much sense.

In this setup I can still measure when filter changes are needed by instead of measuring vacuum I can measure pressure on the Dahl inlet. As the filter become clogged it will create more restriction and the pressure created from the flow of the Carter pump will increase.


Why I chose to put the carter before and not after the Dahl is almost all the pumps used for fuel that are popular were designed to push not pull. As I want the max flow and there is no actual pressure against the pump even on the outlet side other than that created by the dahl it puts the least amount of stress on the pump. One of the goals of this setup is maximum duty life of the pumps so the least stress. This does that by using two pump stages and in positions they need to do the least work and get the most cooling and lubrication.