V-Ref
Active member
Look forward to seeing some pre and post cooler temp data from your fuel cooler. Impressive as usual. Great job.
Fuel System with a different twist installed
- Thread starter TARM
- Start date
Would this carter pump and filter set up be a viable alternative to a original airdog lift pump feeding the stock hfcm? I plan to build a fuel system when I get time but for the mean time would this pump help keep fuel pressure feeding the stock 6.0 pump?
Yes It can work as a lift pump the same as an AD or a FASS. This is of course minus the filtering the AD and FASS does. But you can use the normal filters for that and save a ton of money. Air removal would be the only thing you would be missing. If you look at the post on PSN I mentioned ways to still do the air removal if you wanted to. The air removal of the FASS is not complex.
I would recommend running the 4600 that has pressure regualted to 6-8 psi as there is no need for more. I ran 4601 only becasue it going to a surge tank so it has no pressure. They are both the same pump (4600 and 4601) The 4601 just has the internal setup to higher pressure limit. Obviously the higher constant pressure the harder the pump is having to work. In this case there is no point to it and it will just lead to working the pump harder for no benefit and as with anything the harder you work it the faster it will wear out.
The carter has a free flow rate of 100gph. That is clearly over the flow rate at pressure of any of the stock pumps or even many of the aftermarkets. It will always provide whatever flow the high pressure pump needs up to that 100 gph. This will take stress off the hi psi pump and actually allow it to flow more at a given pressure.
You also would not need the extra hoses etc of the AD /FASS You would only need to cut into the feed line between the tank and main pump and install the . IMO try to put it as close to the tank as possible. It is small so its easy to mount.
This is one thing I think I finally came to the conclusion of. That is given the flow and pressure we need for fuel demands once you out reach the capacity of the stock pump its best to run two pumps as opposed to trying to have a aftermarket single handle all of it. Whether that is a setup of a parallel up to stock flow levels for each pump or in a 2 stage setup where you have one low psi high flow feeding a high psi pump. Even these nice big pumps like the aeromotives or for that matter the brushless Feulabs as good as they are. When you look at the limitations on how they must be setup to work reliably you can see these pumps are having to be designed in a manner that in a manner of speaking makes them fragile. Example: Nothing smaller than a 100 micro pre filter, Recommended to only feed from a sump no pickup without the understanding of decreased pump life and performance Feed lines of 10-12an even with a sump. Must be run at reduced rate if using for constant duty or a PW controller. Should not be operated below a 1/4 tank etc...
Simply by adding a feed pump you remove most all of those issues and limitations.
I would recommend running the 4600 that has pressure regualted to 6-8 psi as there is no need for more. I ran 4601 only becasue it going to a surge tank so it has no pressure. They are both the same pump (4600 and 4601) The 4601 just has the internal setup to higher pressure limit. Obviously the higher constant pressure the harder the pump is having to work. In this case there is no point to it and it will just lead to working the pump harder for no benefit and as with anything the harder you work it the faster it will wear out.
The carter has a free flow rate of 100gph. That is clearly over the flow rate at pressure of any of the stock pumps or even many of the aftermarkets. It will always provide whatever flow the high pressure pump needs up to that 100 gph. This will take stress off the hi psi pump and actually allow it to flow more at a given pressure.
You also would not need the extra hoses etc of the AD /FASS You would only need to cut into the feed line between the tank and main pump and install the . IMO try to put it as close to the tank as possible. It is small so its easy to mount.
This is one thing I think I finally came to the conclusion of. That is given the flow and pressure we need for fuel demands once you out reach the capacity of the stock pump its best to run two pumps as opposed to trying to have a aftermarket single handle all of it. Whether that is a setup of a parallel up to stock flow levels for each pump or in a 2 stage setup where you have one low psi high flow feeding a high psi pump. Even these nice big pumps like the aeromotives or for that matter the brushless Feulabs as good as they are. When you look at the limitations on how they must be setup to work reliably you can see these pumps are having to be designed in a manner that in a manner of speaking makes them fragile. Example: Nothing smaller than a 100 micro pre filter, Recommended to only feed from a sump no pickup without the understanding of decreased pump life and performance Feed lines of 10-12an even with a sump. Must be run at reduced rate if using for constant duty or a PW controller. Should not be operated below a 1/4 tank etc...
Simply by adding a feed pump you remove most all of those issues and limitations.
cowboy_dan
Member
The only problem I see is you forgot to draw in the tank vent. It keeps the pressure from building, or a vacuum from forming.
It sounds like you've accounted for that in your logic, just forgot to draw it in the diagram.
It sounds like you've accounted for that in your logic, just forgot to draw it in the diagram.
Yes I forgot to draw it in. But all our tanks have those as OEM correct? I have an Excursion so it has a different tank that is rear mount where the spare tire goes in a PU between the hitch mounts. But what would be the front passenger side of the tank IIRC had a port plastic nipple. It had a cover over it but not one that could actually create a seal that I could tell. More to keep dirt from dropping down it. Non-venting would be a issue for sure, vacuum or positive pressure
I swear though I have dropped that tank so many times at this point that if I needed to add one I would cut into the fill tubes vent hose and put a T into it and run that as the vent up over the fill port behind the body panel. LOL TO understand right before we got started doing all the upgrades to the engine and fuel system etc my wife thought she would be nice and filled my tank. That would be my 45 gallon tank all the way to the fill spout. I ended up draining it using the old stock pump hooked to jumpers. Then refilled it the same way. Of course I did this two different times before my feeble brain thought of only putting a few gallons in until I was sure I had everything as I wanted it. Grrrrrrr Live and learn I guess.
Kind of like the first time I did a set of unit bearings and forgot to install the yellow O ring that goes in the back of them. That one resulted in some tools defying gravity.
I swear though I have dropped that tank so many times at this point that if I needed to add one I would cut into the fill tubes vent hose and put a T into it and run that as the vent up over the fill port behind the body panel. LOL TO understand right before we got started doing all the upgrades to the engine and fuel system etc my wife thought she would be nice and filled my tank. That would be my 45 gallon tank all the way to the fill spout. I ended up draining it using the old stock pump hooked to jumpers. Then refilled it the same way. Of course I did this two different times before my feeble brain thought of only putting a few gallons in until I was sure I had everything as I wanted it. Grrrrrrr Live and learn I guess.
Kind of like the first time I did a set of unit bearings and forgot to install the yellow O ring that goes in the back of them. That one resulted in some tools defying gravity.
Tom S
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Tarm, I have really enjoyed this thread thanks!
Calico5
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THAT'S NICE! Great looking setup.
VERY well thought-out.
Thanks for the GREAT info!
Brings a whole new meaning to "Custom Fuel System"...
VERY well thought-out.
Thanks for the GREAT info!
Brings a whole new meaning to "Custom Fuel System"...
Yeh I bet if she knew how much time I would spend messing around with this you woudl be right. Its funny though when I first got it I put a good amoutn of miles on as you would expect being new. She would say to me when odometer numbers woudl come up when tracking my mileage that we needed to be putting miles on the minivan as I wanted to keep this for a long time. I can tell ya what working on this thing and doing all the upgrades with the issues I had at various steps sure fixed that. It corrected any excessive driving I had done in that year. LOL
Basically it was not driven but a 1/4 tank from early winter until mid summer.:doh:
But I seem to be on the right track now
Suspension etc is the next big part.
Basically it was not driven but a 1/4 tank from early winter until mid summer.:doh:
But I seem to be on the right track now
Suspension etc is the next big part.
Tree Trimmer
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one thing you might add to your surge tank, is a low fuel light. your fuel pressure guage will tell you if the hp pump runs out of fuel, but a light will at least give you a pre-warning if the surge tank is gonna be dry in a second or two from a failing lift pump, before the hp pump runs out of fuel.
woodduck97
New member
Very nice write up. I enjoyed reading it and makes me want to put a cooler on my fuel system now. LOL It is a fuel system from Marty running a Aeromotive A-1000. My question is will the V10 cooler cause much restriction on my return being a 1/2 inch line?
Well you could be returning on less than a 3/8 line and have far less restriction that your regulated pressure. All one has to do is hook up a hose of a given diameter to the pump inlet dumping into a bucket and you will quickly see the what amount of pressure you are looking at. 160 GPH can be handled with a single 3/8 hose. If you think about it whatever you have as the smallest hose size on the pressure side is all you will need on the return size in most cases. Symmetrical hose sizing I guess you would call it. We are dealing with a restriction of less than a total of 3/8 cross sectional diameter going thru the heads at points. So if you can adjust your regulator to drop pressure far below what you plan to run it at then you can see that hose capacity is all you will need for the return.
Back to the cooler. No I it should not cause a issue will return flow. When you add up all of those core rows they add up to more than the flow of the main 3/8 in and out lines.
To be clear as I do not want to give the wrong impression: There is nothing wrong with running a larger return line. Other than cost and dealing with the size it just gives you more capacity.
Back to the cooler. No I it should not cause a issue will return flow. When you add up all of those core rows they add up to more than the flow of the main 3/8 in and out lines.
To be clear as I do not want to give the wrong impression: There is nothing wrong with running a larger return line. Other than cost and dealing with the size it just gives you more capacity.
Hotrodtractor
Moderator
A pump of 160GPH being completely returned through a 3/8" hose puts the fluid velocity in the line at about 7.5ft/s. As a general rule of thumb for a return line you want to keep the fluid velocity below 10ft/s. Fluid velocity is an indicator of how much restriction you have - the lower the number the less restriction. So 3/8" is perfectly fine for a return line for this setup if you follow the standard guidelines.
Thanks for that info Jason. I did not know what the actual guidelines were. That is good info to have.
I know when I first started all this I was not putting the fuel flow into proper perspective and felt flow was much higher than it really was . Not until I was running flow tests into a bucket and saw what the various flow rates actually looked like visually did I understand. That's when I realized how much I was overcompensating with large fuel line post pump and likely hurting not helping.
I know when I first started all this I was not putting the fuel flow into proper perspective and felt flow was much higher than it really was . Not until I was running flow tests into a bucket and saw what the various flow rates actually looked like visually did I understand. That's when I realized how much I was overcompensating with large fuel line post pump and likely hurting not helping.
neverkickn
New member
Does that pump not come with a check valve on the outlet?
