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Old 02-28-2020, 05:34 PM
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Default Scientific Intake Selection and Review

Thought I would share my intake selection and review while trying to approach it scientifically.

A little background.
I own a 2011 F-250 crew cab short bed with the 6.7L powerstroke with approximately 100,000 miles on it and is currently all stock. The truck was purchased used with the main purpose of towing and hauling with some commuting. I keep track of fuel mileage pretty religiously and hand calculate whenever I can get back to back fill ups (the wife is not as good about remembering this). I am getting approximately 18 mpg on my rolling hilled highway commute in the summer running 60-65 mph. In the winter I have seen this number hover between 17 mpg and 15 mpg all depending on how good I am at remembering to plug in the block heater the night before. I have seen as much as 20 mpg on longer flatter interstate runs at 70-75 mph during the summer. As I have not completed a full tank just towing I donít have perfect numbers and I bounce between towing our steel gooseneck trailer and our bumper pull high deck flatbed trailer. Towing in the summer I seem to be around 15 mpg. Towing in the winter I have seen as low as 12 mpg.

Like most of us here I like to get more out of my truck and know that there are always compromises made by the manufacturer when mass producing a vehicle. That being said I have a long list of parts that I wouldnít mind swapping, upgrading, adding, or changing. The struggle is justifying it to myself and my wife. My first opportunity reared its head when I was doing a check of components as we gear up for a long trip to Texas to see family and haul back a small tractor. The filter minder was sucked down to the last line before the red on the intake box. A quick disassembly and a black dirty filter confirmed that the filter would need replaced soon. I know the stock intake is a true cold air intake and is capable of handling up to 500 HP. But I canít help my problem solving nature. Looking at it I thought surely I could do better than a stock replacement filter.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #2  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:34 PM
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My selection process and outcome.
My selection criteria for an intake was that it had a filter efficiency of stock or better, had a cleanable dry filter, someone somewhere made a dust cover for it, and improved fuel mileage. Throttle response improvements, room to grow for future modifications, and improved low end power are greatly appreciated with peak power being icing on the cake. Obviously I didn’t want to put a filter on the truck that didn’t prevent dirt, dust, and debris from entering the engine at least as good as what came from the factory. I learned a few things having had an oiled K&N intake before. The oiling process was a pain, it was easy to over or under oil, and unless I was religious about cleaning and re-oiling it often, dust found its way into the intake. Being able to clean the filter and reuse it would help to justify the cost to me and my wife. The pre filter dust covers I have seen used in other applications in my area appear to do really well. They are an additional bug, dust, and moisture barrier to the filter extending its life and making it easier to clean. If an intake is doing its job of easily breathing in fresh air, it should improve fuel economy. This also makes it easier to justify the upgrade. Coming from a non drive by wire naturally aspirated V8 truck, a drive by wire turbo V8 diesel is lacking in throttle response though not unbearable. This is the first performance mod on a longer list so I don’t want to have to revisit it later because it becomes the choke point. Low end power coupled with improved throttle response help the towing confidence of the truck. And who doesn’t like to brag about peak numbers?

The three major types of intake upgrades I looked at were drop in filter, air box replacement only, and complete intakes. While just the drop in filter hit much of what I was looking for they were smaller improvements than I might have liked. The air box replacement only styles claimed decent numbers and some people love them. But I kept staring at the OEM intake tube and saw the compromises made for fitment, sound deadening, molding, and cost. For the small price difference of the airbox replacement style and the complete intake, I decided it was worth the extra money for the complete intake.

The two main styles for these brands were open or enclosed filter. Common sense would dictate that the enclosed style would be more effective as it blocks access to the warm air of the engine bay and instead focuses on funnelling cool fresh air from outside of the vehicle. However, when researching the different specific intakes the open filter design seemed to have more consistent reports of more power (shown in back to back dyno sessions as solo modification and with other more extensive modifications), reported mpg gains (approximately 1-2 mpg where the enclosed style reports were anywhere from a loss of 1 mpg to a gain of 4 mpg), and a larger following (so much so S&B made one). This had me scratching my head. I acknowledge the majority can be wrong so I can’t put much weight behind the fact that a lot of people are buying them. But the reviews seemed to be genuine that most everyone enjoyed the intake, some even having switched from an aftermarket enclosed style to the open style. The consistency of the uptick in mpg along with the evidence in back to back dynos made me think there has to be more to the story which lead me to my current hypothesis for the 2011-2016 Powerstrokes.

Point 1 of my hypothesis: At most driving speeds, engine bay temperatures anywhere near the intake are at or much closer to ambient temperature than we are led to believe.

Point 2 of my hypothesis: Enclosed style air intakes are more restricted due to being enclosed. Some brands work very hard at keeping the enclosure large and unobstructive to the filter. But I believe the very nature of further boxing in the filter creates restrictions.

Point 3 of my hypothesis: Enclosed style air intakes still rely on air routings provided by the OEM through the front grill, headlight, bumper, fender, etc. to draw in fresh air. These openings may not be sufficiently large enough or are restrictive enough that they have a larger impact than we are led to believe. Aftermarket intake manufacturers may be aware of this or may not but I doubt they would modify this portion of the air routing unless it was as easy as an additional scoop or horn on the intake.

As I work through my intake upgrade I plan to test this hypothesis at least to the satisfaction of my needs. But first I still needed to select an intake. From what I learned during my research, the open style appears to be the better design. If need be I can also create my own enclosure to shield the intake from high engine bay temperature. This can be done easier than starting with an enclosed filter without the enclosure. This left me with three true options and 1 partial option: No Limit Stage 1 and 2, S&B Open Air, and AFE stage 2.

Since I plan on leaving my emissions systems intact and do not plan on being able to tune the truck for some time I eliminated the Stage 2 No Limit intake. Looking over the partial open AFE intake I decided against it as it still had an enclosure to work around and I was unsure of the necessity of the number of jogs in the tube. After much deliberation between the Stage 1 No Limit and the relatively new S&B Open Air, I ended up going with the S&B. The massive dry cleanable filter has a tested 99.90% efficiency. The massive smooth intake tube is made of plastic which will help to insulate the incoming air from heat (should it prove to be an issue) but still tuned for the stock calibration of the MAF with an insert. It sounds like the insert may be removable should you be able to update calibrations similar to the Stage 2 No Limit for even more airflow but it’s too new to tell. I will let someone else tell me whether that is possible and do more research later to see if it’s a good idea. The intake has a supporting bracket near the filter to help support the intake and keep it properly positioned for a simple install with little tweaking. Since there isn’t much info out there on this intake I thought I would try to document and share what I find.

I am in no way bashing any of the other systems as they appear to be quality systems. I am just explaining my reasons for my final selection and let me tell you it was not quick or easy. I also want to note that I’m not receiving any compensation, kick back, freebies, or discount from anyone for this write up. I’m just sharing my experience and doing my best to be unbiased and informative in the process.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #3  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:35 PM
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Outcomes of my baseline runs.
For some future comparisons to test my hypothesis and make sure the intake does what I want it to, I took a couple baseline runs with the stock intake on some temperatures. The numbers seemed to be in line with what I have seen before as well.

After 5 minutes of initial start up and idle. Truck was plugged in the entire night beforehand inside a three sided shed:
Ambient temperature was 9F. Intake air temperature was 27F.
Granted it was very cold so the temperature difference is probably exacerbated but that's still a difference of 18F with what is regarded as a true cold air intake.
After getting warmed up during the commute at 60-65mph (engine temperature needle was directly in the middle):
Ambient temperature was 3F. Intake air temperature was 3F. CAC temperature (directly after the intercooler) was 62F on the flats and 68F climbing the hills. EGT from the factory stock location 420F on the flats and 530F climbing the hills.

After 5 minutes of initial start up and idle. Truck was parked in an open parking lot:
Ambient temperature was 46F. Intake air temperature was 41F.
My best guess here is the direct sunlight heated the ambient sensor to higher than the actual air temperature as is seen below.
After getting warmed up during the commute at 60-65mph (engine temperature needle was directly in the middle):
Ambient temperature was 41F. Intake air temperature was 41F. CAC temperature (directly after the intercooler) was 77F on the flats and 82F climbing the hills. EGT from the factory stock location 460F on the flats and 600F climbing the hills.

Again there is good evidence that supports the stock system being a true cold air system. I will do another couple runs after the installation of my system to compare both at an idle and on my commute though it is starting to warm up here. If temperatures creep up too much I will look into blocking the warm air from the engine bay from entering the intake.

I would have recorded MAF numbers but there are enough ambient variables in play let alone the ones the engine adds I don’t have a high level of confidence in runs that aren't back to back. The best I can think of is a run before and after the installation in park at a couple different rpms directly after a cold start. This way I can check the flow increase claims made by S&B in real world situations. Depending on the numbers, what I find during installation, and what I find out with temperatures I might try opening up some air paths.

I don’t have access to a dyno for before and after for more official power and torque curves. Best I can do is the butt dyno and driving impressions. I will also keep track of fuel mileage with the new system. It may take a while to collect the data as this is not the primary vehicle so please be patient with me.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #4  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:37 PM
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Ordering and unboxing.
I ordered the intake and prefilter directly off of the S&B website as they gave me the best deal after tax and shipping. I got the economy shipping and the packages arrived in 3 short days. When I got the packages I opened them up to inspect that everything appeared to be there and there was no damage in shipping. Everything made the trip ok and everything appeared to be included.The first thing to catch my attention was just how massive the filter and tube are. Odd as it sounds I would equate it to about the size of a bathroom trash can. The media of the filter almost has a corduroy look to it which I found to be interesting. Since they didnít have a clear photo of what the insert was I was curious how that would look. It's a very smooth transitioning rectangular funnel that fits right behind where the filter goes. It looks like it would be easy to remove or replace if I ever get to the point of tuning the truck and working with the tuner to determine if it would be worth it for additional airflow. The tube is thick plastic and sturdy with the inside being glass smooth. It is absolutely massive and looks to have smooth transitions though there is one indent that I was not expecting underneath near the mount. The insert flows air over this so it isnít much of a concern currently. The ⅛Ē thick bracket also looks sturdy and has a powder coat finish. The miscellaneous other components all look to be made with quality in mind. I also got a couple S&B stickers that I am unsure of what to do with. I plan on having it installed by the end of the weekend.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1607.jpg (1.45 MB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1608.jpg (1.19 MB, 57 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1610.jpg (1.03 MB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1611.jpg (1.13 MB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1613.jpg (1.18 MB, 49 views)
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #5  
Old 02-28-2020, 05:39 PM
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Rest of the pictures from unboxing.
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File Type: jpg IMG_1617.jpg (1.28 MB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1618.jpg (1.31 MB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1675.jpg (1.24 MB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1676.jpg (1.13 MB, 44 views)
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #6  
Old 02-29-2020, 04:28 AM
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HeavyAssault HeavyAssault is offline
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Well I run a No Limit Stage 2 with a prewrap. It's an open element filter system, that doesn't show anything different than your numbers as above. The biggest "argument" people attempt is that it sucks in the hot air from around the motor.....Not really.



Yes, at idle standing still it will raise the intake temps. After moving for 2 minutes those temps drop away to ambient temps.

Quote:

Point 1 of my hypothesis: At most driving speeds, engine bay temperatures anywhere near the intake are at or much closer to ambient temperature than we are led to believe.

I already have evidence this is true. So mark that one off the list.
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Old 02-29-2020, 06:43 AM
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Can read this now but it looks like youíre doing an awesome writeup, I want to read this later
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2008 CCSB 6.4 Harley Davidson- PPEI Tuned, EZ Lynk, 4" Jamo Stainless Exhaust, Down But Not Out
2008 CCLB 6.4 Lariat Land Yacht- H&S tuned
2008 EC C&C F450 6.4 Work Truck- Almost there
2003 RCLB 6.0 XLT- 260,000 miles, no name tunes, stock as can be
6.0 Dump Trucks- 350 and 450
VT365 Rollback
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Old 02-29-2020, 06:20 PM
erbear28 erbear28 is online now
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Ford did a good job with underhood airflow so it really comes down to personal preference. Open or closed is fine
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Old 02-29-2020, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erbear28 View Post
Ford did a good job with underhood airflow so it really comes down to personal preference. Open or closed is fine


Hey buddy, glad to see another OGTT guy here.
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2008 CCSB 6.4 Harley Davidson- PPEI Tuned, EZ Lynk, 4" Jamo Stainless Exhaust, Down But Not Out
2008 CCLB 6.4 Lariat Land Yacht- H&S tuned
2008 EC C&C F450 6.4 Work Truck- Almost there
2003 RCLB 6.0 XLT- 260,000 miles, no name tunes, stock as can be
6.0 Dump Trucks- 350 and 450
VT365 Rollback
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Old 02-29-2020, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.7Bison View Post
Common sense would dictate that the enclosed style would be more effective as it blocks access to the warm air of the engine bay and instead focuses on funnelling cool fresh air from outside of the vehicle. However, when researching the different specific intakes the open filter design seemed to have more consistent reports of more power


You have to remember in a turbo diesel, the compression from the turbo heats the air up.
A lot.
Then the air goes through the intercooler, which should bring it down to just over the outside air temp. The difference between the fenderwell and engine bay temperatures is likely negligible in the end and the flow rates of the open element overcomes any air temp differences.
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2008 CCSB 6.4 Harley Davidson- PPEI Tuned, EZ Lynk, 4" Jamo Stainless Exhaust, Down But Not Out
2008 CCLB 6.4 Lariat Land Yacht- H&S tuned
2008 EC C&C F450 6.4 Work Truck- Almost there
2003 RCLB 6.0 XLT- 260,000 miles, no name tunes, stock as can be
6.0 Dump Trucks- 350 and 450
VT365 Rollback
  #11  
Old 03-01-2020, 06:53 AM
erbear28 erbear28 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor M View Post
Hey buddy, glad to see another OGTT guy here.


Iím everywhere lol just not that active on here
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Old 03-01-2020, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
I already have evidence this is true. So mark that one off the list.
Quote:
Ford did a good job with underhood airflow so it really comes down to personal preference. Open or closed is fine
Glad to hear some of you can back up my hypothesis! This gives me hope I won't have to do any further modifications to get more cool air to the intake. For my own purposes and to keep this write up and review complete I will still gather data after the install and post my findings.

Quote:
Can read this now but it looks like youíre doing an awesome writeup, I want to read this later
Thanks! Sounds like I'm on the right track to being informative and unbiased.

Quote:
You have to remember in a turbo diesel, the compression from the turbo heats the air up.
A lot.
Then the air goes through the intercooler, which should bring it down to just over the outside air temp. The difference between the fenderwell and engine bay temperatures is likely negligible in the end and the flow rates of the open element overcomes any air temp differences.
You are correct the turbo heats up the air a ton and the intercooler is in place to help bring the temps back down. I've done some thermodynamics math with a lot of assumed values and raising the intake temp from 70F to 75F only decreases the mass airflow by approximately 0.75 lb/min. Not a whole lot and I would probably never notice real world. You are probably correct that just the larger element would make up this difference... But if I can have more air AND colder air AND a lower pressure drop from a new intake setup...
I like performance and efficiency but don't like compromise.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #13  
Old 03-01-2020, 12:24 PM
erbear28 erbear28 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6.7Bison View Post
Glad to hear some of you can back up my hypothesis! This gives me hope I won't have to do any further modifications to get more cool air to the intake. For my own purposes and to keep this write up and review complete I will still gather data after the install and post my findings.





Thanks! Sounds like I'm on the right track to being informative and unbiased.





You are correct the turbo heats up the air a ton and the intercooler is in place to help bring the temps back down. I've done some thermodynamics math with a lot of assumed values and raising the intake temp from 70F to 75F only decreases the mass airflow by approximately 0.75 lb/min. Not a whole lot and I would probably never notice real world. You are probably correct that just the larger element would make up this difference... But if I can have more air AND colder air AND a lower pressure drop from a new intake setup...

I like performance and efficiency but don't like compromise.


Steve Carter who runs absolute performance has done some similar testing

ďFor example, the Absolute Performance intake shows a 2-7* delta of intake temp vs ambient air temp. Similar to the stock 3-5* delta. Both intake systems drawing air from the factory location. Those delta numbers alone dismantle the "hot air intake" comments but let's take it one step further...

Underhood air temp issues in these trucks at 40,50,60,70+mph are almost non existent. The engineers at ford have mastered under hood airflow beings that the front stack in the core sees a massive amount of air across its surface area, moving into the engine bay and down out under the truck. Keeping a large portion of the area near the major heat emitting components covered with cooler ambient air which eliminates the hot air pockets most have come to expect to be under the hood. Speaking of heat emitting components, thankfully the 6.7 motor design has all the exhaust components in the valley of the engine, and the intake on the outboard side. Even further eliminating heat soak issues or potential. Throw in the fact that the air filter on the Absolute intake is surrounded by the battery box, front core and fender, or on the 2017+ trucks - surrounded by the egr cooler and battery tray, you really just don't have the "hot air intake" effect some people uneducatedly claim to exist.

Now let's get down to why even if it was a "hot air intake" it wouldn't matter....

This particular motor is setup with a inline air to water intercooler which is tasked with cooling the air charge to the motor post turbo. Now most people don't know or at least aren't thinking of the turbo as a air compressor and the physics of compressing particles like oxygen at a high rate of speed, what occurs. The biggest being heat. The 6.7 turbocharger absolutely can and will create charge air temps (post air intake system) that are 5x higher than ambient air temps. Meaning on a 75* day, I have seen Air Intake temps as high as 400* at WOT. Cruising speeds the turbo usually creates 2-3x higher air charge temps than ambient. The air intake system albeit stock or aftermarket only affects that number by single digits in my testing. Which doesn't really mean much, and wouldn't mean much even if the temp was 10-15-20* higher because that wonderful little inline intercooler is in place to bring those temps down and make them optimal again.

So what's the point of an Absolute Performance Air Intake system? VOLUME. Cramming as much air into the turbocharger as humanly possible. Obviously the more available air to the turbo there is, the more efficient that turbo will be in the essence there isn't a restriction on the inlet side making the charger work harder to do its intended job. How does this relate to you in terms of performance? Horsepower and more notably, throttle response. Crisp and clean off the line, every time

So... take it from a guy that's spent the months testing these systems and products with data logging equipment in a variety of setups, scenarios and locations - there is no such thing as a "hot air intake" on a 6.7 PowerstrokeĒ
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Old 03-01-2020, 03:23 PM
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@erbear28: Did you see 400* F post-CAC on WOT runs??? Or was that pre-CAC temps?



I've never seen higher than 20-25* F over ambient post-CAC for any driving condition.

On a good day cruising around the post-CAC numbers could be as low as 15*F over ambient. Don't expect that all the time.



Quote:
But if I can have more air AND colder air AND a lower pressure drop from a new intake setup..

Which is only relative to the performance of the CAC. As long as it's doing it's job you will never see anything below ambient air going into the motor.



Keeping the conversation to just the intake system up to the compressor housing, when driving around my No Limit Stage 2 will pull temps at ambient or 2*F less than ambient.
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Old 03-02-2020, 07:17 AM
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Great discussion here guys!

Quote:
Steve Carter who runs absolute performance has done some similar testing
Quote:
So... take it from a guy that's spent the months testing these systems and products with data logging equipment in a variety of setups, scenarios and locations - there is no such thing as a "hot air intake" on a 6.7 PowerstrokeĒ
Quote:
Keeping the conversation to just the intake system up to the compressor housing, when driving around my No Limit Stage 2 will pull temps at ambient or 2*F less than ambient.
I hadn't seen his testing but again good to know my hypothesis of ambient like underhood temperatures seems to be confirmed by others. I'm just going through the paces to make sure my upgrade is indeed an upgrade in all the areas I want it to be.

Quote:
This particular motor is setup with a inline air to water intercooler which is tasked with cooling the air charge to the motor post turbo. Now most people don't know or at least aren't thinking of the turbo as a air compressor and the physics of compressing particles like oxygen at a high rate of speed, what occurs. The biggest being heat. The 6.7 turbocharger absolutely can and will create charge air temps (post air intake system) that are 5x higher than ambient air temps. Meaning on a 75* day, I have seen Air Intake temps as high as 400* at WOT. Cruising speeds the turbo usually creates 2-3x higher air charge temps than ambient. The air intake system albeit stock or aftermarket only affects that number by single digits in my testing. Which doesn't really mean much, and wouldn't mean much even if the temp was 10-15-20* higher because that wonderful little inline intercooler is in place to bring those temps down and make them optimal again.
I agree with you here and can dive into the math to support it. My only counter point is that the intercooler isn't perfect. While it takes out a lot of heat from the air it will never take all of it out. In fact the higher the temperature in the higher the temperature out. The turbo has the same effect. So in theory in order to have the highest density possible for any setup you want to keep out as much additional heat as possible from start to finish. In the real world the lost density of a 20 degree difference in ambient to intake temperature may not be a whole lot different at the cylinder and may not even be noticeable to the average person. Especially if you increase volume and decrease pressure drop at the same time. But sometimes I live in my own world...

Quote:
How does this relate to you in terms of performance? Horsepower and more notably, throttle response. Crisp and clean off the line, every time
That's what I'm looking for!

Quote:
Which is only relative to the performance of the CAC. As long as it's doing it's job you will never see anything below ambient air going into the motor.
I've heard of a few tricks drag racers use to get manifold air temperature below ambient but they aren't exactly feasible for a daily driver...

Circling back to the main thread topic, I did get the intake installed yesterday. Just need to organize my thoughts, data, and pictures.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
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Old 03-02-2020, 08:18 AM
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Not sure what you are trying to gain now with all this effort. If you are only concerned about airflow to the turbo compressor housing I might have a better understanding of your efforts here. Are you just doing all this to prove to yourself what you already know to be true??
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Old 03-02-2020, 09:30 AM
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Wow what a waste of time, effort and money
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Old 03-02-2020, 05:16 PM
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I'm checking the manufacturers claims against what I can determine with real world data and sharing my findings. The open air intake from S&B is relatively new and there wasn't anything out there on it. Cant say I know anything about it except what the manufacturer claims.
For my purposes I am wanting to improve fuel economy, protect the engine from ingesting dirt and dust, and not have to buy another filter for as long as I have the truck. I would like more power, throttle response, and not hinder future modifications but that isn't necessarily a requirement. Can't say it's really all that much effort or time. It's been more effort and time sharing my findings here than any other part of this. As for money, the intake pays for itself being able to wash and reuse the filter alone.
If it is the consensus I am wasting my time and effort, and there is no interest in what I am doing, I can simply stop sharing my findings and experience.
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  #19  
Old 03-02-2020, 05:54 PM
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Default Scientific Intake Selection and Review

NAPA 6637 filter with a washable filter sock has been proven to flow enough to make big power in 7.3s for years. And itís like 50 bucks for the filter and the cover. Iíd imagine there would be enough room in a 6.7 to put that filter in also.
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Last edited by dsberman94; 03-02-2020 at 06:01 PM.
  #20  
Old 03-03-2020, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
For my purposes I am wanting to improve fuel economy, protect the engine from ingesting dirt and dust, and not have to buy another filter for as long as I have the truck. I would like more power, throttle response, and not hinder future modifications but that isn't necessarily a requirement.

You should have bought a No Limit filter and system. I've run the same one for over 100k.


More "power" from an intake alone isn't going to happen.


By all means, post your experiences and findings. If you discover it works for you then so be it. If you discover it was a waste of money then so be it. You will either discover what many already know, or show a different result.


Just remember you are only changing a small portion of the airflow path.
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Old 03-03-2020, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavyAssault View Post
You should have bought a No Limit filter and system. I've run the same one for over 100k.


More "power" from an intake alone isn't going to happen.


By all means, post your experiences and findings. If you discover it works for you then so be it. If you discover it was a waste of money then so be it. You will either discover what many already know, or show a different result.


Just remember you are only changing a small portion of the airflow path.
I was heavily considering the no limit but a few minor things pushed me to the S&B. If the S&B doesn't do what I want I will get the No Limit as I have heard lots of positive reviews on it with data to back it up.

I understand more peak power won't really happen which for me is only a bragging number. I would appreciate more power lower in the curve for towing but again not a requirement. I am keeping in mind that I am changing less than three ft of underhood piping and a filter. I'm not expecting it to make a world of difference, but I do expect incremental benefits over the stock system.

I appreciate your openness and willingness to have a conversation. I am here to share my experience whether it's good, bad, common knowledge, or new information.
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Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
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Old 03-03-2020, 04:15 PM
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Installation:
I watched the installation video the morning before I started the replacement. It all looked pretty straight forward. I had a couple buddies over for some beers while they watched me. I did my MAF data run for the before. I grabbed numbers shortly after start up, 2000 rpm, 3200 rpm and back to idle. I then started the tear down. Taking out the old air box was a tighter fit than I thought but I didnít unhook the positive battery cable out of the way of the mounting tab. The intake tube was very easy to remove. The old mounting bracket was easy to remove as well. In order to take the intake ďfunnelĒ behind the headlight the video had me taking off the grill to get the headlight out to access it. I didnít bother with this and just removed it from the inside. It took a bit of prying but wasnít terrible. Looking at the inlet size of the stock air box I can see why it would be a limiting factor to air flow. The intake tube with its corrugated flexible portion and large resonator also didnít look great for airflow. Removing the ďfunnelĒ not only made lots of room for the giant filter but also opened up the front of the truck for airflow. Canít say at this point Iím too concerned about needing to make modifications for more fresh airflow. If other open filter intakes donít instruct you to remove this piece in the instructions, I would recommend it for more fresh airflow. Fitting up the new mount bracket and adjusting it around the coolant and condenser lines was easy. Assembling the intake was easy. Installing the whole thing was easy. The notch in the tube was to avoid some of the condenser and coolant lines. Looks cleaner under the hood than the stock unit. Upon fire up for my post installation MAF data run, I noticed a little more growl and a little more turbo whistle.

Looking at the data and comparing between my two runs Iím not sure I got an exact apples to apples comparison. I also have data for boost so I will include that in an attempt to explain what went wrong. The data is as follows:

Before:
Start up: 158.29 kg/hr 1.02 psi, 2000 rpm: 618.41 kg/hr 8.06 psi, 3200 rpm: 1120.5 kg/hr 10.75 psi, idle: 144.79 kg/hr -0.05 psi.
After:
Start up: 146.03 kg/hr 0.7 psi, 2000 rpm: 675.68 kg/hr 7.26 psi, 3200 rpm: 1048.39 kg/hr 8.15 psi, idle: 80.89 kg/hr -.15psi.

So the numbers look to be all over the place for mass flow of air. Some cases show more air flow, some show less. I believe that my data snapshots were not perfectly timed to be exactly the same as shown by the boost pressure. I also am dependent on what the engine is needing at the load itís under. My rpms were the same and my ambient conditions were as close as I could get them, but my turbo was messing with me depending on where it was on spool when I took my data. Assuming volumetric flow is the same as displacement didnít change and rpm was the same, I could use a kg/(hr*psi) scalar to compare between before and after. The problem is I donít know the temperature after the turbo which is the missing piece to the ideal gas law. The best I can determine is that at 2000 rpm it appears that after the intake upgrade I was flowing more air at a lower boost pressure indicating more air flow. Everywhere else I was running less air flow and less pressure. Iím not sure what that would indicate. Less power loss maybe?

In summary my test was flawed and my MAF data doesnít really tell me anything. At this point I canít confirm or deny real world similarities to S&Bís claims on airflow. But installation was simple, the engine bay looks a little cleaner, and I get a little more intake sound.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1682.jpg (1.40 MB, 46 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1683.jpg (1.38 MB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1684.jpg (1.45 MB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1685.jpg (1.35 MB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1686.jpg (1.36 MB, 45 views)
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  #23  
Old 03-03-2020, 04:16 PM
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More installation pictures.
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File Type: jpg IMG_1692.jpg (1.36 MB, 39 views)
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Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #24  
Old 03-03-2020, 08:16 PM
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It’s nice to see someone with a little enthusiasm again and taking a real interest in coming up with the best way.

When BigR started fabbing the NL intake, he did a dyno comparison with the big hitters of the time including S&B. It would be worth finding that to help prove, or disprove, some of your work. It’s a good read and probably came out in 2014? There were some issues with the scaling on MAF with the original version, so that had to be tuned out and wouldn’t work on a stock truck.
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  #25  
Old 03-04-2020, 04:56 AM
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Now you see all that other plastic intake routing funnel junk that's another part of the problem.


Drive it a bit more, keep logging data.
  #26  
Old 03-04-2020, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsberman94 View Post
NAPA 6637 filter with a washable filter sock has been proven to flow enough to make big power in 7.3s for years. And itís like 50 bucks for the filter and the cover. Iíd imagine there would be enough room in a 6.7 to put that filter in also.


I think jakes done that on both his 6.7ís @linconlocker
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Old 03-04-2020, 03:15 PM
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I think he started using something a little bigger than the 6637 now.
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  #28  
Old 03-05-2020, 10:21 AM
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Initial driving impressions and temperature data.
Finally I was able to drive the truck after installing the intake. I did my same start up routine as the previous data runs above and did my morning commute with the truck. Let's start with my impressions.

The truck definitely sounds more aggressive. It’s not too loud to have a conversation or to feel the need to turn it off in a drive through but I am surprised just how much the old intake was muting the truck. I can still hear my highway tires sing on the pavement so again it can’t be that much louder, but definitely more aggressive sounding.
The throttle feels smoother. It used to have some hesitation when moving the truck from a stop with a weird pause when shifting from first to second. That seems to have smoothed over and the throttle seems more pleasant to operate for me. It might be slightly more predictable but I won’t confirm that without more miles on it. I would say the truck is more responsive but again want a few more drives under my belt before I commit to it.
Towards the end of my commute I got on it and it feels a fair bit faster. Could be a placebo effect, but I’m not too worried about 0-60 times in an empty truck anyhow.

Now for the numbers.
After 5 minutes of initial start up and idle. Truck was parked inside a three sided shed:
Ambient temperature was 41F. Intake air temperature was 48.2F.
Really not a whole lot of increase in temperature. But the truck was cold. So far no real cause for concern.
After getting warmed up during the commute at 60-65mph (engine temperature needle was directly in the middle):
Ambient temperature was 41F. Intake air temperature was 43F. CAC temperature (directly after the intercooler) was 77F on the flats. EGT from the factory stock location 470F on the flats.
Basically all in line with one of the previous runs almost exactly. Close enough it could even be a rounding or resolution difference between my monitor and the sensors.
Just as I started to get into the steeper hills where I gather data my test took an interesting twist. I got the message on my dash that the truck had started a regen. After exhaust temps leveled out at the new higher level I saw the following:
Ambient temperature was 41F. Intake air temperature was 45F. CAC temperature (directly after the intercooler) was 80F. EGT from the factory stock location 720F.
The truck continued the regen into the end of my commute where I hit a couple stop lights and town speed limits. Sitting at a light for a good while as the truck finished up the regen I saw intake temperatures as high as 100F and CAC temperatures around 90F.
From this test I can say with confidence my new intake does draw air from the engine bay. I can also say that going through a regen makes things very warm under the hood. Depending on the exact situation the increase in intake temperature over ambient can be drastic. For most scenarios I find myself in it shouldn’t be a problem. I drive 90% of the time at highway speeds where I normally catch a regen. If the intake does its job of more air with less restriction at or near ambient temperatures it should actually bring down soot load as I should have a more efficient and complete burn. This should make regens less often and quicker. By how much? Probably not a lot but still the problem should get better not worse. If you are someone who operates a truck in a lot of city driving scenarios this temperature data may affect your decision on selecting an intake.

I’m not too concerned with the increase in temperatures I saw in this initial drive. I will continue to monitor temperatures and mpgs as I’m ready for a fresh fil lup after this commute. Should temperatures trend upwards or mpgs not improve I might look into trying to shield the engine bay from the intake. Right now, a 2 degree difference in normal driving (that could just be an error) isn’t worth pursuing. The jury is still out but so far I’m liking the intake overall for my purposes.
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  #29  
Old 03-05-2020, 11:51 AM
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So you go thru all the effort to "shield" the intake.....yet the CAC still warms up the air before it gets to the intake manifold.



Why do that???????
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Old 03-06-2020, 08:03 PM
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Why am I looking at temperatures and other thermodynamics?
It seems like I have had a lot of questions around temperatures and why I bother looking at them. The turbo super heats the air and the intercooler cools it back down so it doesnít matter what temperature the air goes into the intake. Right? Why donít we find out. I am going to go a little bit into the weeds and dive into some thermodynamics on the intake side of these 6.7L Powerstrokes. I will do my best not to get into what goes on inside the cylinder and exhaust side of it to stay somewhat on topic. I may be repeating some things you all may know or it may be new information. You can decide if you want to read, skim, skip, or flat out ignore this post. Please call me out if I didnít do a good job explaining something. If I screwed up the science, school me on it. Iím here to learn too and would hate to spread misinformation. All my equations use metric units (Pascals for pressure, Kelvin for temperature, grams for mass, cubic meters for volume, and mols for number of molecules) I have done the math and converted to english units. I will try to attach a spreadsheet with my calculations to check my work or play with if you trust my equations. Just change the values highlighted in green. Let me know if you find something that doesn't work, doesnít make sense, or is plain wrong.

Iím going to skip around a bit and start with the end of the intake system, the cylinder. Diesel combustion is different from gasoline combustion in a few ways but I want to highlight a major point. Diesel combustion has no real downside to a lean condition as far as fuel burn. In fact itís almost preferable to have more air (oxygen) than necessary to allow for plenty of air to completely burn with the fuel and give more air to absorb combustion temperatures keeping egts from climbing too high. Adding more air has power and efficiency benefits (more complete burn), particulate emission benefits (more complete burn means less unburnt soot), higher power potential (more air could burn with more fuel making more power), and possibly reliability (lower exhaust temperatures).There are many other balances at play that may cause an OEM to keep air from entering the cylinder. Things such as higher NOx emissions, costs, harder to reach regen temps, etc.

Back to the cylinder. The displacement is going to be the first limitation of air. There is only 6.7L available to be able to cram air into every two revolutions (4 stroke engines hold the air for two revolutions as it works through the different strokes). Imagine for a moment that we have the heads wide open to the air. The most air we can push into the engine in two revolutions without some intake and exhaust scavenging wizardry is 6.7L. At what 70F ambient temperature and 14.7 psi ambient pressure that is only 0.0177 pounds of air with only 23% or so being oxygen. One of the great things about air is that it follows the ideal gas law, Pressure x Volume = number of air molecules x a gas constant x Temperature. This means if we are limited to a volume, we can still increase the mass of air (number of molecules) inside that volume by increasing the pressure of the air or decreasing the temperature of the air.

Letís start by increasing pressure. There are a couple of ways of doing it but I wonít bother with the positives and negatives of different superchargers and turbochargers. Iím going to stick with the diesel industry standard, turbos. Turbos boost the pressure of the air from ambient (approximately 14.7 psi) to something higher. Different turbos do this to varying degrees of success but I wonít go too much into depth on that. What we need to know is that when the air is compressed it heats up. There is no free lunch in thermodynamics. The equation I have for a temperature increase from turbo is Temperature increase = ((((Pressure out/Pressure in)^0.283) - 1) x Absolute temperature in) / Turbo efficiency. What we can gather from this is the higher the boost the more heat that is made, the higher the temperature in the higher the temperature out, and since I have yet to discover a completely efficient turbo, the turbo inefficiency adds more heat. Like some of the first twelve valve cummins letís just slap a turbo on and pipe it straight into the heads. At 20 psi boost, 70F ambient temp, and a turbo efficiency of 80% (pulled out of thin air), the temperature out of the turbo is 252.17F. But with the increase in temperature and pressure our mass of air for two revolutions is 0.0311 pounds. Not too shabby. But what else can we do?

Letís drop the temperature of the air out of the turbo. Intercoolers or charge air coolers (CAC) do just that. They take the warm air and run it past a fluid, either air or liquid coolant, to exchange heat from the warmer air out of the turbo to the cooler fluid of the intercooler. There are other methods to cooling air such as water injection. Iím going to stick with the factory equipment. The air to water style intercooler in the 6.7L Powerstroke helps to limit the amount of pipe routing and pressure loss, using coolant boosts the efficiency of the intercooler, but since the coolant then passes through a radiator the coolant will always be warmer than ambient air. The equation I have for an intercooler is Temperature drop = (Temperature in - Temperature of the fluid) x intercooler efficiency. What we can gather from this is the larger the difference in temperature the larger the drop and since I have yet to discover a completely efficient intercooler, the intercooler inefficiency adds more heat. The inefficiency shows up more the larger the difference in temperature meaning the higher the temperature in the higher the temperature out. There is a possible case where the turbo is adding very little boost and the air to water intercooler actually warms the air slightly. Letís add the intercooler in between the turbo and the heads. Since the turbo is cramming air into the intercooler it is maintaining the pressure and we donít see a drop in pressure due to the drop in temperature. At the 252.17F air coming out of the turbo, 75F coolant temperature (an educated guess), and an intercooler efficiency of 80% (pulled out of thin air) the temperature out of the intercooler is 110.44F. With the temperature drop our mass of air for two revolutions is 0.0388 pounds. We have over twice the amount of air we started with. Now for the last piece of the puzzle.

Obviously we want to source air to the turbo and prevent dirt and debris from entering the system. So we add an air filter to keep stray birds out of the turbo. Filters cause a loss of ambient pressure as some work has to be done to draw the air through it. Effectively you are decreasing the ambient air pressure. Weíve also been paying attention and noticed that air density is dependent on temperature. Weíve also noticed that for both the turbo and the intercooler, the higher the temperature in the higher the temperature out. So we try to route to the coldest air available, ambient air outside of the engine bay. We find that we have two competing solutions. One air intake uses a small restrictive filter but is able to fit in a spot where it only collects ambient air. The other intake uses a large much less restrictive filter but can pull some warmer engine bay air. The first intake has an intake temperature of 70F and a pressure drop of 1 psi (pulled out of thin air). The second has an intake temperature of 72F and a pressure drop of .5 psi (pulled out of thin air). Doing the math over for both of these cases the first intake ends up having a mass of air for two revolutions of 0.0298 pounds. The second intake has a mass of air for two revolutions of 0.0303 pounds. I think this clearly shows that 1 psi of pressure change has much more impact than 1 degree F in temperature change. And similar to the data I have and what others have seen with highway driving, it is better to have a free flowing intake even if it means pulling slightly higher intake temperatures.

Letís take the less restrictive filter and put it in two new scenarios. The first is we go above and beyond to make sure we have nothing but ambient air. The second is we donít even worry about it. Both are sitting stopped with no air flow under the hood building boost ready to launch for a drag race or with full GCWR trying to make it through the intersection. Because the engine is working hard the underhood temperatures are high. So this first scenario we would see an intake temperature of 70F leading to a mass of air for two revolutions of 0.0305 pounds. This is only 0.66% more air than the scenario before. Hardly looks like it would be worth the effort to block off engine bay heat. For the second scenario we would see temperatures of 110F (a 40 degree rise above 70F doesnít seem too far fetched from the near 60 degree rise I saw above 40F) leading to a mass of air for two revolutions of 0.0283 pounds. This is less than the more restrictive filter in a situation that may be more important to someone than just cruising down the highway.

There are other methods to add even more air density. Compound turbos to boost the already boosted air. Nitrous (NOS) both increases the concentration of oxygen and has a cooling effect when injected.Water/methanol injection also has a cooling effect. Using ice to decrease the fluid temperature in the intercooler. Along with other tricks.

As you saw I donít have exact numbers for the system. The intake system is also dynamic and more complex in reality than what I have laid out here. Similar to the filter there are pressure losses through the piping and intercooler. The faster you move air through the piping the higher these pressure losses are. The turboís efficiency depends on how much air itís moving and what pressure itís compressing to. Engine load can influence the amount of air requested. RPM changed the amount of volume per minute available. Other temperature influences under the hood can raise or lower temperatures moving through the system. These trucks add cooled recirculated exhaust gases back into the airstream at different rates which affects oxygen concentrations and air temperatures. The outside weather can change what ambient pressure, amount of oxygen, and ambient temperature is available. Along with many other factors. This makes it difficult to simulate our exact engines and know exactly how big of an impact certain changes will have.

This is why I am looking at temperatures with the intake. Not because I think dropping intake temperatures 2 degrees will completely change the truck for the better. But because I know that in principle, keeping temperatures as low as I can will keep the truck headed towards an ideal case. If I donít bother looking at temperatures they can quickly compound and get out of hand, leading me away from that ideal case and possibly worse off than the stock system. I am also attempting to remain grounded in reality, making myself justify time, effort, and cost for any benefits gained. My current data gathered shows there is not enough benefit to gain from the effort of adding shielding to my intake for my purposes. But I still have many other cases to cover and lots more data to collect. I hope this clears some things up.
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  #31  
Old 03-06-2020, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling6.7 View Post
Itís nice to see someone with a little enthusiasm again and taking a real interest in coming up with the best way.

When BigR started fabbing the NL intake, he did a dyno comparison with the big hitters of the time including S&B. It would be worth finding that to help prove, or disprove, some of your work. Itís a good read and probably came out in 2014? There were some issues with the scaling on MAF with the original version, so that had to be tuned out and wouldnít work on a stock truck.
Thanks for the encouragement! I tried to find the topic with this in it as I thought it might make for an interesting read. Found a couple topics relating to the 6.7 intakes but none with a dyno test. Any way you could help me find it?
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~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #32  
Old 03-24-2020, 08:06 PM
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Quick update.
Made a large trip to Texas to bring back a trailer and Farmall H before a lot of the pandemonium. Drove into a headwind both directions. I'm also guessing that all the stations were still running winter diesel based on not seeing anything too different. On the way down I got two full tanks burned at 16.5 and 15.8 mpg hand calculated. I had a tank that was half unloaded and half towing that was 14.8 mpg hand calculated. This tank may have been "summer" fuel but it's hard to tell just from the numbers. The rest of the fill ups back were 10.4, 11.9 and 11.2 mpg hand calculated. Not too different than what I was seeing before the intake on winter fuel. Slightly less but I want to chalk that up to the headwind and higher speeds (75mph most of the time). I hope to get some better comparisons with a tank or two on my normal commute.
Running interstate into the wind I was seeing intake temps 2-5 degrees higher than ambient. Not enough for me to get worked up about but the perfectionist in me knows they could be better. Might be a cheap mod I can do if I end up with nothing but free time, short on cash, and an itch to improve the truck. I see other larger improvements I can make first.
I think there is some throttle response improvement after this trip. On ramp drags and passing pulls seemed improved if only marginally.
I haven't peeked at the filter but I can't imagine it accumulating much of anything yet.
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
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Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
  #33  
Old 06-16-2020, 06:29 AM
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Gonna button this up as I have been nudged towards adding some other mods that will move me out of the vacuum that was just the intake.

Looking back at some of my data my MAF peaks for the same drive appeared to have increased from approximately 1200 kg/hr to 1300 kg/hr. My towing a trailer around has yielded me an average of about 13 mpg. I did not get a full tank of just commuting with the new intake but I appeared to get about the same mileage maybe slightly less according to the lie-o-meter. But shortly after adding the intake my turbo started surging at about 52-54 mph under light load steady throttle conditions. I was also doing slightly more stop and go driving than I used to.

So I have now installed a new steel bearing 2014 style turbo with a WW2, BD exhaust manifolds, some thermal exhaust coating, and some other reliability mods in the valley. All of this should play nice with the intake but won't tell me any more about just my intake. I should be posting some reviews on some of the newly added components in other threads as per requested. Thanks for reading guys!
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2011 F-250 XLT CC SB 4x4 6.7L Powerstroke
~109,000 miles
Truxedo tonneau cover, Linex bed liner, Blue Ox turnover ball, Weathertech floor mats, Carhartt seat covers, S&B Open Air Intake w/ prefilter
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