6R140 doesn't listen!

[Dan]

im just going to jump right in!!!

ok so i have been dabbling with mcc trying to control my 6r140 to produce constant, firm, precise shifts every time..

I'm having mixed success, if i try to tighten up my shift timing it seems to flair between shift, so i leave that alone and mess with shift pressures.. with lots of shift pressure i manage to get a firm shift but it seems to have a mind of its own... quite difficult to dial in..

now the icing on the cake is, randomly, (typically the 3-4th shift) will disengage 3rd, will not grab 4th and rpms skyrocket to rev limiter... then after around 3-5 seconds it'll grab 4th and continue on.. (I'm sure if you have experienced this you will know exactly what I'm talking about)

so heres what I'm stabbing at with this: i am looking if anyone knows of anything to control this trans in a very precise manner... i contacted "Powertrain Control Solutions" and they told me that they are working on something but didn't give me any real details about what they are up to, or any eta dates..
im sure ats is working on a copilot for the 6r but as for right now im looking to know if anyone can give me any insight? tuning programs that can control the 6r better than mcc?

any help is appreciated!

 

[jdgleason]

Kinda sounds like your trans is hurt... It may not be responding to changes like a fresh one would.

 

[Dan]

Kinda sounds like your trans is hurt... It may not be responding to changes like a fresh one would.

this could very well be but i have been keeping contact with a fellow who has a built ats 6r140 and has had some similar issues.. i am looking at built options so ill follow up once i am built thanks man!!!

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

What is happening is that you don't have enough information to be able to tune the trans. When I tuned transmissions for a living at Ford I had instrumented transmissions. We added pressure transducers in each hydraulic circuit feeding each clutch. We also had the driveshaft instrumented so I had an output torque signal.

These were plotted in a computer program so that I could understand what was happening during a shift. This trans isn't like a 4R100 where you could just apply the next clutch and make the shift. You could apply the oncoming clutch VERY fast and all you would get is a firm shift.

That won't work in a 6R140. This trans has synchronous shifts. You don't just apply a clutch, you must release the previous clutch as the oncoming clutch is applied. How does your software allow you to control the releasing clutch as it is controlling the oncoming clutch? If you can't control both clutches at the same time you CANNOT make this shift work right. You can, however, destroy some clutches trying to make it happen. The offgoing/oncoming clutches must be synchronized to each complete what they are doing within 0.030 seconds of each other or you get a flair (torque goes to zero and RPM increases) or tie up (output shaft torque goes VERY far negative and RPM drops.)

If you don't have a torque signal to be able to see if there is flair or tie up then I wouldn't know how to tune the trans. I only tuned transmissions full time for 19 years. I have some experience doing this.

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans. And I don't think the tuner companies have the money to invest in this. The instrumentation parts are very expensive, and took many, many manhours to install and maintain.

 

[Dan]

What is happening is that you don't have enough information to be able to tune the trans. When I tuned transmissions for a living at Ford I had instrumented transmissions. We added pressure transducers in each hydraulic circuit feeding each clutch. We also had the driveshaft instrumented so I had an output torque signal.

These were plotted in a computer program so that I could understand what was happening during a shift. This trans isn't like a 4R100 where you could just apply the next clutch and make the shift. You could apply the oncoming clutch VERY fast and all you would get is a firm shift.

That won't work in a 6R140. This trans has synchronous shifts. You don't just apply a clutch, you must release the previous clutch as the oncoming clutch is applied. How does your software allow you to control the releasing clutch as it is controlling the oncoming clutch? If you can't control both clutches at the same time you CANNOT make this shift work right. You can, however, destroy some clutches trying to make it happen. The offgoing/oncoming clutches must be synchronized to each complete what they are doing within 0.030 seconds of each other or you get a flair (torque goes to zero and RPM increases) or tie up (output shaft torque goes VERY far negative and RPM drops.)

If you don't have a torque signal to be able to see if there is flair or tie up then I wouldn't know how to tune the trans. I only tuned transmissions full time for 19 years. I have some experience doing this.

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans. And I don't think the tuner companies have the money to invest in this. The instrumentation parts are very expensive, and took many, many manhours to install and maintain.

thanks for the very informative reply! I'm going to be the first to admit i have absolutly 0 idea what im doing as far as trying to make this sucker shift right, and for fair reason! so I'm best to leave my "shift timing" and mess with my shift pressures? if i increase my shift pressure am i correct in thinking that it will have no effect on my shift timing?

 

[highdrum]

For the record, I am very happy with my SPE trans tuning, really like how it shifts.

 

[colecoop56]

For the record, I am very happy with my SPE trans tuning, really like how it shifts.

Agreed. I have learned to love it. I think it shifts even better than the H&S.

 

[01PSD]

What is happening is that you don't have enough information to be able to tune the trans. When I tuned transmissions for a living at Ford I had instrumented transmissions. We added pressure transducers in each hydraulic circuit feeding each clutch. We also had the driveshaft instrumented so I had an output torque signal.

These were plotted in a computer program so that I could understand what was happening during a shift. This trans isn't like a 4R100 where you could just apply the next clutch and make the shift. You could apply the oncoming clutch VERY fast and all you would get is a firm shift.

That won't work in a 6R140. This trans has synchronous shifts. You don't just apply a clutch, you must release the previous clutch as the oncoming clutch is applied. How does your software allow you to control the releasing clutch as it is controlling the oncoming clutch? If you can't control both clutches at the same time you CANNOT make this shift work right. You can, however, destroy some clutches trying to make it happen. The offgoing/oncoming clutches must be synchronized to each complete what they are doing within 0.030 seconds of each other or you get a flair (torque goes to zero and RPM increases) or tie up (output shaft torque goes VERY far negative and RPM drops.)

If you don't have a torque signal to be able to see if there is flair or tie up then I wouldn't know how to tune the trans. I only tuned transmissions full time for 19 years. I have some experience doing this.

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans. And I don't think the tuner companies have the money to invest in this. The instrumentation parts are very expensive, and took many, many manhours to install and maintain.

:thumbsup: good post

 

[Jarrod B]

What is happening is that you don't have enough information to be able to tune the trans. When I tuned transmissions for a living at Ford I had instrumented transmissions. We added pressure transducers in each hydraulic circuit feeding each clutch. We also had the driveshaft instrumented so I had an output torque signal.

These were plotted in a computer program so that I could understand what was happening during a shift. This trans isn't like a 4R100 where you could just apply the next clutch and make the shift. You could apply the oncoming clutch VERY fast and all you would get is a firm shift.

That won't work in a 6R140. This trans has synchronous shifts. You don't just apply a clutch, you must release the previous clutch as the oncoming clutch is applied. How does your software allow you to control the releasing clutch as it is controlling the oncoming clutch? If you can't control both clutches at the same time you CANNOT make this shift work right. You can, however, destroy some clutches trying to make it happen. The offgoing/oncoming clutches must be synchronized to each complete what they are doing within 0.030 seconds of each other or you get a flair (torque goes to zero and RPM increases) or tie up (output shaft torque goes VERY far negative and RPM drops.)

If you don't have a torque signal to be able to see if there is flair or tie up then I wouldn't know how to tune the trans. I only tuned transmissions full time for 19 years. I have some experience doing this.

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans. And I don't think the tuner companies have the money to invest in this. The instrumentation parts are very expensive, and took many, many manhours to install and maintain.

excellent post! i learned something new today.

 

[drunk on diesel]

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans.

They've been doing it for years with the 5R110, so I doubt your doubt

 

[Jarrod B]

They've been doing it for years with the 5R110, so I doubt your doubt

yeah but isnt the 6r more complicated than the 5r?

 

[01PSD]

Even after 10 years... the shifting on the 5R110 in performance applications hasn't been totally refined. It's very obvious to those who drag race, or those who switch back to a 4R.

 

[ithumpwheniwalk]

They've been doing it for years with the 5R110, so I doubt your doubt

You're going to tell the guy that used to make/tune tranny's for Ford that he's wrong? Explain to us how he's wrong then, I'm all ears...

 

[drunk on diesel]

You're going to tell the guy that used to make/tune tranny's for Ford that he's wrong? Explain to us how he's wrong then, I'm all ears...

I get what he's saying and what you're implying, but to imply that there's no way anybody could possibly improve on what the OEM engineers designed without having all of their high-dollar equipment is silly.

I realize the 5R isn't the ultimate drag racing transmission, but it's an amazingly capable transmission in fairly decent performing setups. How many 6.0's and 6.4's are running around there with 100-200+ more horsepower than factory with corresponding custom transmission tunes that are driven and worked day after day for hundreds of thousands of miles with no issues?

How many dealer technicians have you talked with who get glassy eyed when you start talking about aftermarket modifications because they can't comprehend how anything could possibly be better than 100% OEM factory-spec? I've talked with a bunch of them

 

[drunk on diesel]

Even after 10 years... the shifting on the 5R110 in performance applications hasn't been totally refined. It's very obvious to those who drag race, or those who switch back to a 4R.

Ok, but are you saying that the OEM calibrations are "totally refined"?

 

[6point0damn2004]

I didn't get that from what he said. I don't think he's saying you can't improve upon what Ford has at all. Then again I can't speak for him either, just what I got from it

He's implying that you wouldn't be able to properly tune the shifts you want without that equipment. A stock transmission is optimized for all around , general truck use. The OP wants performance shifts and the trNny man is saying its gonna be hard to get good refined performance shifts on account of how complicated the transmission's shift process is without the use of monitoring instrumentation similar to what is used at Ford. idk

 

[drunk on diesel]

This trans, and the 5R110 before it, are so complicated that without the instrumentation I mentioned above I doubt that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans.

both transmissions are so complicated that he doubts that anyone can develop any aftermarket shift software for this trans...

people have been doing it for the 5R and there are already companies doing it for the 6R...

I doubt his doubt

 

[drunk on diesel]

EFI Live guys doubted that a good tune could be written using H&S MCC because MCC doesn't have data logging...

Just because they couldn't grasp attempting it doesn't mean that it wasn't attempted and performed with much success

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

people have been doing it for the 5R and there are already companies doing it for the 6R...

Maybe there are some. I haven't heard of them, but I'm not looking, either. I do see posts now and then about people asking about it, and NOBODY has ever said that ____ company has one that works.

 

[Mark Kovalsky]

so I'm best to leave my "shift timing" and mess with my shift pressures? if i increase my shift pressure am i correct in thinking that it will have no effect on my shift timing?

If you get the shift pressure wrong and cause a tie up parts break.