Another T4 thread

[TyCorr]

This look a little bit like flag waving, and there's hundreds more posts around the internet extolling the infallibility of the 38r. As soon as someone starts talking about a better turbo the flag waving comes in the form of defending the 38r to the point of discounting someone's ability to wrench, drive or an attack on their age/knowledge/experience. I'm 43 and built my 1st 454 at age 11 with my dad and have built countless engines, both 2 and 4 strokes since then.

I count at least 7 different posters on this thread that have gone the T4 route, and a few of us did so after having the 38r. Do we all not know how to wrench and drive? Do all of our trucks have some obscure mechanical issues?

The bottom line in my case, is that the 364.5sxe outperforms the 38r on the bottom end, too end, and everywhere in between. It's not a magical turbo that is masking shti tuning or driving. It just works, and yes I am flag waving and if someone comes on here saying how their having problems with a properly sized SXE, then I'm gonna question their set up, but if someone comes on and says there's a new turbo that outperforms the SXE, I'm gonna be interested as opposed to questioning why they would try it.

Thats not flag waving. Thats frustration with how obtuse people can be over something as simple as a turbo.

Ive said it 6 or 7 times. Ill repeat it once more as it has not sunk in. I dont care if a gt42r outperforms a gt37 with a 1000hp methanol injected supra. It should. But basing the whole existence of this new phenomenon on the fact a 38r doesnt move air, doesnt work for towing, and is somehow to blame for heat issues is borderline ludicrous.

People have blown 550+hp through stock 38rs. Gated to 36-38 psi. If you care to search Bill at php did a build thread on Jason Seays truck. Fr 7.3 with 38r and support mods. Forced inj upgrade. 250/200. The build thread even addressed the trans and other issues swapping to a 250/200. The truck did 530 something. Then live tuned to 540 something. Beings it was around the time of announcing the ww for the 38r, they were given one for the test/build. As contrary to popular belief in this thread, that setup maxed out hit 603 hp. May seem high but the baseline #s are good/low for the setup. The 1.15 non wg setup lost power and increased egts and bp (duh). The billet wheel cleaned up 30-40 hp of smoke . Granted the wheel may have been useless at 350hp towing but the point is a 600hp setup can and would tow efficiently at 400hp. Which is way more than our trucks can take in terms of axles and brakes and cooling. I dont meanyou cant tow in a tune that makes 550hp, but rather what you are actually making in realtime.

 

[TyCorr]

https://youtu.be/hL9drkh8Peg

Heres a 250/200 and 38r and its cleaning most of the fuel

 

[TyCorr]

https://youtu.be/NtBPw417Ilw

Gotta move air to make power. It appears just a quick stab is building enough to blow off 4 rear tires.

 

[TyCorr]

https://youtu.be/iz0sSJ4n-mE

I do see high egts here though. On a 603 hp dyno run the 38r does let egts creep up to 1600 degrees.

But I can see how 350 whp isnt doable :lookaround:

 

[The Brad]

https://youtu.be/hL9drkh8Peg

Heres a 250/200 and 38r and its cleaning most of the fuel

That's the haze I had while towing between 2-2500rpm. That siht don't fly here in Commifornia.

 

[TyCorr]

Right. Thats with 200hp more worth of fuel.

And that is a race tune that could easily be scaled back to 400hp that wouldnt smoke no matter what you did.

I had the same tunes from this setup for 3 or 4 years. Until this summer. Waaaaay better than what ive got now.

Edit:at this point im admittedly stirring the pot.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Thats not flag waving. Thats frustration with how obtuse people can be over something as simple as a turbo.

Ive said it 6 or 7 times. Ill repeat it once more as it has not sunk in. I dont care if a gt42r outperforms a gt37 with a 1000hp methanol injected supra. It should. But basing the whole existence of this new phenomenon on the fact a 38r doesnt move air, doesnt work for towing, and is somehow to blame for heat issues is borderline ludicrous.

People have blown 550+hp through stock 38rs. Gated to 36-38 psi. If you care to search Bill at php did a build thread on Jason Seays truck. Fr 7.3 with 38r and support mods. Forced inj upgrade. 250/200. The build thread even addressed the trans and other issues swapping to a 250/200. The truck did 530 something. Then live tuned to 540 something. Beings it was around the time of announcing the ww for the 38r, they were given one for the test/build. As contrary to popular belief in this thread, that setup maxed out hit 603 hp. May seem high but the baseline #s are good/low for the setup. The 1.15 non wg setup lost power and increased egts and bp (duh). The billet wheel cleaned up 30-40 hp of smoke . Granted the wheel may have been useless at 350hp towing but the point is a 600hp setup can and would tow efficiently at 400hp. Which is way more than our trucks can take in terms of axles and brakes and cooling. I dont meanyou cant tow in a tune that makes 550hp, but rather what you are actually making in realtime.

amen to both posts brotha!!

Right. Thats with 200hp more worth of fuel.

And that is a race tune that could easily be scaled back to 400hp that wouldnt smoke no matter what you did.

I had the same tunes from this setup for 3 or 4 years. Until this summer. Waaaaay better than what ive got now.

Edit:at this point im admittedly stirring the pot.

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[Z_racing14]

Thats not flag waving. Thats frustration with how obtuse people can be over something as simple as a turbo.

Ive said it 6 or 7 times. Ill repeat it once more as it has not sunk in. I dont care if a gt42r outperforms a gt37 with a 1000hp methanol injected supra. It should. But basing the whole existence of this new phenomenon on the fact a 38r doesnt move air, doesnt work for towing, and is somehow to blame for heat issues is borderline ludicrous.


People have blown 550+hp through stock 38rs. Gated to 36-38 psi. If you care to search Bill at php did a build thread on Jason Seays truck. Fr 7.3 with 38r and support mods. Forced inj upgrade. 250/200. The build thread even addressed the trans and other issues swapping to a 250/200. The truck did 530 something. Then live tuned to 540 something. Beings it was around the time of announcing the ww for the 38r, they were given one for the test/build. As contrary to popular belief in this thread, that setup maxed out hit 603 hp. May seem high but the baseline #s are good/low for the setup. The 1.15 non wg setup lost power and increased egts and bp (duh). The billet wheel cleaned up 30-40 hp of smoke . Granted the wheel may have been useless at 350hp towing but the point is a 600hp setup can and would tow efficiently at 400hp. Which is way more than our trucks can take in terms of axles and brakes and cooling. I dont meanyou cant tow in a tune that makes 550hp, but rather what you are actually making in realtime.

The fact that the 38r can make 500+hp has zero to do with what's being discussed with the sxe. I don't think you will see one post in this thread questioning it. Mine did 525 with it. What is in question is the low rpm towing ability without egt's. Again, I ask this without any kind of disrespect to the guys that are totally happy with their 38r. Take a video of the most amount of boost it will hold at 1800 or even 2000 rpm sustained at 1250 degrees. This negates talking about what tune you did it in, what size trailer you were towing, or anything else. Just boost restriction reading on the same engine with a 66mm wheel. Maybe you guys found a combo of tuning and other parts that make the 38r a killer tow turbo - I unfortunately didn't and was just looking to share where I did find it.

 

[lincolnlocker]

low rpm towing shouldnt be a problem with a 38r.. I had that same problem once... ended up needing to re seal the intake plenums.. leaky as ***..



when you go to a t4 turbo, do you use the stock plenums or replace them?

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[Z_racing14]

I left the stock plenums in. I did make a boost leak detector when I had the r to make sure there was no leaks. That's why I say if you guys have her figured out I'd love to see it. Even if I tried and couldn't get it I'd be damn interested and happy as hell for you if a few of you did. I was surprised to when I couldn't get the r to work in the scenario towing I layed out a post ago. Also why I was so ecstatic that after a turbo swap - bam - all problems solved

 

[Countrycar]

You have 50cc more fuel than I do. Tuning should be the same as you tune for the nozzle unless you are running an oddly misatched capacity for the nozzle and want to hold it open longer. Which you arent.

I know that cam can effect things but you wouldnt yhink in such a negative way.

Im not calling you a liar but the tuners you mentioned not being able to pull pw back to about 2.4 ms and get things clean and powerful worries me about the tunes they are selling.

Ive got not so great tunes, the worst wheel there is, and my egts are fine. Cool you could say for the amount of fuel.

No flag waving, no bias. Other than if a 38r can run clear and perfectly clean on an otherwise stock truck there's nothing in the realm of possibility preventing it from doing the same on any other truck.

Since we are mainly fielding complaints on towing egts, does anyone know what they are producing power wise towing? Im not attempting to seek a safe hp range for towing with a 38r. Quite the opposite. Im more interested in nozzle to hp and resultant heat.

Yup, you would think Ty that this thing would or should run solid with the Turbo and Tuning etc, but it doesn't. I'd like nothing more than to look into this further and come back and say Hey guys, guess what? I fixed it! But, it just doesn't seem like this is going to happen. Another thing is we don't have access to people out here in California that know how to tune these extensive builds in order to make them run properly. For the most part, it's all on us, or the individual himself. I know if I was closer to Matt he could make the adjustments necessary to make my rig run as it should, but with these extensive builds it takes hrs and hrs of live tuning/adjustments. Matts tuning is something I stand firmly behind, and a man I call friend as well. He stood behind me when I went thru a very tough time not so long ago. I'm not a tuner in any way shape or form, that's why I call on these guys for assistance. I need to get AE, or some other diagnostics tool to be able pull info and relay this to my Tuner, this would make it easier. Or just learn how to tune myself. Yeah then all you'd hear is BOOMMM...:fustrate::axe:
I'm with you on the cam, it shouldn't have any ill affect here, to the contrary. I'm supposed to get together with Brad very soon. He has AE and Torque pro. and he knows how to use it. Let's see what info we come up with after some diagnostics.. I know when I finally do get it dialed in, this thing should shred the tires..
On Edit; Don't get me wrong, my rig runs incredibly hard right now with the 38r on it. As I said on an earlier post, I can punch it from 35-40 mph and it'll bust the tires loose. It's at the bottom end, the haze, smoke on tip in, and egt's that I can't seem to get under control..

 

[Countrycar]

I don't know who has a Dyno out here close to me, but I'm gonna try to find one. I'd be curious to see how much HP/TQ this thing is laying down right now. It'll give me some more info to compare and post up with my next turbo change out, Turbo to Turbo with no other changes..

 

[6.0 Tech]

No limit is in southern ca, not exactly sure where, but i wanna say moorpark. I remember seein his green truck running around a couple times and i used to live in simi valley.

 

[Countrycar]

Thank you sir. I'll try to find him. Yup me too SV.

 

[cjfarm111]

Dynos may help with tuning but is a far leap from real life testing. I will put my sxe 364.5 against any version of a 38r. The 38r is a great turbo but not a turbo that worked for me while towing heavy. Just the same goes for wot runs. Egts and back pressure issues plagued the 38r to perform in a working environment. With no tuning changes and just a turbo change there is no comparison between the sxe line and a 38r. Knowing what I know now through many combos of the 38r and a bell hfsb and then the sxe I would hands pick the sxe over anything else. They flat work and housings changes if needed are cheap.

 

[jeremiahmercier]

Dynos may help with tuning but is a far leap from real life testing. I will put my sxe 364.5 against any version of a 38r. The 38r is a great turbo but not a turbo that worked for me while towing heavy. Just the same goes for wot runs. Egts and back pressure issues plagued the 38r to perform in a working environment. With no tuning changes and just a turbo change there is no comparison between the sxe line and a 38r. Knowing what I know now through many combos of the 38r and a bell hfsb and then the sxe I would hands pick the sxe over anything else. They flat work and housings changes if needed are cheap.

Too bad you didn't try the BASB,

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[jeremiahmercier]

https://youtu.be/NtBPw417Ilw

Gotta move air to make power. It appears just a quick stab is building enough to blow off 4 rear tires.

That side mirror though

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[ja_cain]

I think the exhaust side (with the larger turbine) of the sxe turbos are probably more efficient at scavenging energy from the 7.3's exhaust flow. I think this is probably even more apparent at the typical lower rpm towing speeds from 1800-2000 compared to the 38r. Couple that with a well designed compressor wheel and you have a winner.

I think Ty, Jake or somebody mentioned this, but I think more work should be done to setup a/the wastegate so as to keep the turbo in the most efficient part of the map through most of the normal engine operating range.

Companies like B&W and Garrett have some awesome cfd software available these days. I'm sure they are utilizing it come up with more efficient wheel designs on both the compressor and turbine sides. Everyone talks about turbine size and a/r, but shape/profile of the turbine could almost certainly be optimized just like is done with the compressor wheel. You can't throw a more aggressive compressor wheel on and expect the same turbine to drive it efficiently at lower exhaust velocity/energy. Hence the lower rpm issues with the billet wheels on the 38r. I'm rambling now and need to shut up.

https://agpturbo.com/blog/the-borg-warner-s300-sxe-an-inside-look/

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[ja_cain]

Too bad you didn't try the BASB,

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I have never seen one bad review of the BASB. Not saying people haven't destroyed them or whatever, but I've never heard of anyone calling them a turd. I suspect Pius is now dummy and knows how to build the right turbo for the application. I just want to know if he is using wheels of his own design or off the shelf stuff.

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[jeremiahmercier]

I have never seen one bad review of the BASB. Not saying people haven't destroyed them or whatever, but I've never heard of anyone calling them a turd. I suspect Pius is now dummy and knows how to build the right turbo for the application. I just want to know if he is using wheels of his own design or off the shelf stuff.

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I believe the compressor wheel was his or Zane's "ZQ" wheel as they call it, in the BASB, not sure about the turbine wheel, all I know is it was a T4-1.10 turbine housing

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