Front brake upgrade

TARM

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You should depending on the brake fluid you use and the humidity of your area be flushing your brake system every 1-3 yrs. Most people almost never fully flush their systems.

Anytime you have brake fade it means you have boiled the fluid at and near the calipers of those brakes and that fluid should be bleed enough to remove that boiled fluid. Not much maybe 1/4 cup per caliper.

Today there are many brake fluids that far far exceed what you typically find in the local china mart parts store. What to look for is a very high wet rate and then very high dry rating. Brake fluid will always over time absorb water even though its suppose to be a closed system. The closer these two ratings are to each other the less change in performance you will see over time as the fluid takes on water.

The top dog for that would likely be Castrol React SRF. While there are a very few that actually have a slightly higher dry rating nothing touches its wet rating or the difference between dry and wet rating. Issue is cost. Its not cheap by any stretch and some may not see the need.

Its specs are Dot 4 Dry 608°F Wet 518°F Difference of only 90°F

Another great performer that is a bit less pricy but has the second best difference between dry and wet and still has very high over all boiling points is ATE Type 200 and its sister that is no longer allowed after like 20 yrs of being here Super blue What made this combo great was super blue was well blue and 200 amber. When you did a flush it made it super easy to know when you had completed the flush. Each flush you alternated between the two. DOT in its bone head wisdom decided to force the rule it has had on the books forever that all brake fluids must be amber or clear. Funny that it was not an issue till this last year for them after countless years of it being on the market with not any issues I ever saw reported.

Still even so ATE Type 200 is a great fluid specs DOT 4 Dry 536°F Wet 396°F

There are a number of other fluids. I have a rather extensive list that took me forever but it seems another has done a good job of listing all the top end fluids as well

http://www.lelandwest.com/brake-fluid-comparison-chart.cfm?startRow=1&SF=4&ST=2

I think the link has it organized from highest wet to lowest. I keep my limits high but 525 dry and 380 wet for minimum spec when I look for a fluid. With that I look for those with the smallest difference between the dry and wet rating. Number one is the Castrol @ 90 and number two is ATE Type 200 @ 140.

But many other great fluids such as:

Motul RBF 600
Wilwood EXP
Brembo LCF 600+
AP Racing PRF660
The Brake Man Xtreme 6
Amsoil Series 600 at the lower end of what I want to run but better than the typical stuff in the autoparts store.

The other and really the main issue with our brakes is the calipers and rotors are on the small side. No matter how great the pads and fluids the caliper can only put so much force given its size and number of pistons etc. Then no matter how great the caliper setup there is only so much surface area of its circumference surface area for a brake rotor of a given diameter.
 

pilot4life

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Stock rotors and SSBC 8 piston calipers. They have already paid for themselves 3x from some jerk cutting me off then slamming on the brakes. My old calipers would have had me in their rear end. Worth the money. It ain't worth all the money we invest to go fast if you can't stop the lead sled.
 

PSDEng

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Believe,it or not TARM, Valvoline synthetic actually has a higher dry boiling point than the Amsoil synthetic!
 

TARM

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Are you speaking of the old Syn power synthetic which was stopped being made in 08-09 ( maybe there is still some old stock around)? I am having to go off memory but I think it was Wet: 343°F Dry:502°F Valvoline's current brake fluid product is Valvoline Syn DOT 3, 4 which is a DOT 4 according to its corp site. I see no other fluid listed there that rates higher.

I will check but last time I checked that was not the case. Maybe Val has different ones I do not know about?

But I will say I always go directly to the manf to get actual numbers or confirm them with the list if I find one as I have found a large amount of the lists to have numbers that are quite inflated over what the specs actually are. Its why I listed that list in my last post as all the ones I checked were correct and he keeps it regularly updated ( last time according to the site:"Updated June 25, 2014: Added Gulf fluids. (list currently shows 66 different fluids)") and I did not want to convert/edit my spreadsheet into something that would post correctly only that data and I have not checked it in 6 months so....


All I could find on Val brake fluid was below:

I went straight to their site: http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/brake-fluids/ and also went thru their various other branded names in the links in the left side bar.

Valvoline DOT 3/4 (DOT 4) Wet 311°F Dry 480°F Dif 169°F (Here is the link to the offical Valvoline PDF tech spec http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/valvoline_brake_fluid.pdf)

Amsoil Series 600 (Dot 4) Wet 380°F Dry 580°F Dif 200°F (Here is the spec sheet straight from Amsoil http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2476.pdf)

Maybe you were looking at the Amsoil Series 500 DOT 3 Wet 304°F Dry 520°F (But even it has a higher dry temp than old and new Valvoline. http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2476.pdf)

Maybe there is a different Valvoline brake fluid that I missed? Or maybe an older version of Amsoil brake fluid with lower specs?



ATE Type 200/Blue Wet 396°F Dry 536°F Dif 140°F (This fluid has the second lowest degree spread between Dry and Wet boiling points of all brake fluids only bested by Castrol SRF.)

it actually has a lower dry than that of Amsoil S600 but look at its wet and its a good deal higher thus ratio/dif is less and is less than 1/3 the cost. You have to take into account we are talking about over 525°F drys anyways these two.


While expensive, I found this to be a cool brake fluid with a really neat feature:
Project Mu G-Four 335 Wet 430°F Dry 635°F. It actually changes color when it boils. While it may not beat out Castrol for the top spot in Wet/Dry having a fluid that tells for sure when it boils and thus how much needs to be bled sure is nice. The downside is because of this feature you do have to flush the whole system to use it but honestly once you go to any type of perf fluid you should do that anyways. Also its costly only $10 under Castrol @ $59 per 33.8 ounce.

Many are going to consider price and yet another reason I find ATE Type 200/Blue to be a top pick for the street for most people looking for better perf but not wanting to pay the premium for the top 2%

Consider ATE and Val @$15 Amsoil S600@ $45 (All 33.8 oz msrp large bottle pricing) Castrol $69. These are all list prices and can be found a bit cheaper if you shop.



The first thing that got me hooked on ATE was the blue/amber color differences to use for flushes, now no more after almost 20 yr thanks to bone heads at DOT. I would not be surprised if a competitor put enough pressure on them to act. I wish they had allowed it for off road uses only or farm equip which DOT should have no say over IMO. The only current downside to ATE is you tend to have to go to a foreign auto shop to find it as I tend not to find it at Walmart or the large chain automarts type stores unless they have customers that have asked to have it stocked. Still I can find it in most towns if I look.




In street vehicles that measure fluid flushes in years if ever not days weeks or months IMO its the wet and more so the spread between wet and dry boiling points that matters. From the second you open that container the brake fluid starts collecting H20 and continues to do so. Of course as long as you are not opening the fill cap constantly it happens very slowly but still basically from day one perf starts to slowly move from one to the other. Of course you have to set absolute minimums for temps as well as a brake fluid that had 200 dry 200 Wet would not be so great. In tests I have seen posted it takes 6 months to year for brake fluid to be half way to its wet saturation limit in typical humidity conditions. But I can not 100% vouch for those tests. Thus the larger the dif between dry and wet boil temp the greater the dif in perf limit as it ages. I want the most consistent perf between changes. The longer between changes the more the dif between the dry and wet is critical.



In terms of full flush from H2O its time not mileage which differs from most other fluids. I try to get it done every year as even the most costly of brake fluids its still not more than $100 per year for a flush. That is what 3/4 tank of fuel these days or what some spend on an oil change or two these days.

In general, the rules I have seen the most from street perf brake authorities is 1-2 years depending on the humidity/wetness of conditions and likley for those less concerned 3 yrs max which is typically most OEM guidelines for flush freq so not much room to argue that limit.



I set my cut off numbers high compared to min Dot 4 standards. Of those I listed I used a 525°F dry and 380°F wet as my limits for those I listed as I wanted to show top ones out there. As the OP in this thread was looking to get more at of his brake perf I used those same perf cut off points.




Take a look at what Castrol React SRF specs are and you can see why it garners the top spot:

Wet 518°F Dry 608°F Dif 90°F.

While you find a few boutique racing brake fluids that will exceed the Dry rating with Torque RT700 being the highest I have ever seen at 683°F which is only 75°F higher all of those have much lower wet and the difference between dry and wet is significantly greater. Torque TR700 Wet:480°F Dry:683°F Dif 203°F (honestly that's not bad at all but you should expect it as we are talking some of the top ones and you are not going to find these as any automart LOL) More typical of race only is a wets in the 300°F-400°F range as they are not really that important as they are expected to be drained and flushed after every race.

The closer these two numbers are to each others the less difference in performance there will be as the brake fluid ages and takes on water.

Take a look at the list I posted up in the link it gives all the various values of most every brake fluid I have ever found and all the numbers came from the official sites tech pages other official source of that company or they were not listed. But as a general rule find the highest wet rating you can find and you will typically find a very good brake fluid.

There are of course a few others specs that come into play such as viscosity for some of the very newest ABS systems as well as a thinner fluid should allow for marginal increase in response.


Again while I have all kinds of data on brake fluids its only one part of the equation as all the good high temp brake fluid in the world is not going to make up for small caliper/piston setup and rotor size, design, and quality. It helps but its not some fix all.
 
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PSDEng

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I'm not sure which Amsoil product I looked at in the store when I did my fluid flush, but I remember picking up the Valvoline and being surprised that it had a higher wet boiling point, which at the time I thought was what was the important one. I wasn't necessarily looking at the spread. Lots of good info here TARM
 

mandkole

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The powerslots on my truck with a very low mileage and well maintained system are warped with less than 40K on them. They will need replacement. I dont notice it until Ive got the trailer on and you have to use them a little more. Its pretty bad once hot.
 

PSDEng

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The powerslots on my truck with a very low mileage and well maintained system are warped with less than 40K on them. They will need replacement. I dont notice it until Ive got the trailer on and you have to use them a little more. Its pretty bad once hot.

That's disappointing, I just put some on my truck. I was under the impression they were a better rotor.
 

mandkole

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yeah, I was surprised also. They shake pretty good and havent been used real hard. Trailer's not on all the time and we dont have hills everywhere around here. The bummer is that with the slots Im not sure they could be touched up on the machine. I plan to look into it more this winter. Good luck!
 

CurtisF

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My powerslots heat cracked on all 4 wheels. Looked like spider webs by the time I took them off.
 

TARM

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I think the only rotor of stock size that are readily available that offer the best chance against warping are those that have been crypo'd. While all others looking thru tons of reviews are hit and miss there is a huge change in that ratio for the cyro'd ones. Heat anything up over and over to super high temps and its going to warp not to mention not knowing what people are doing in term of pads etc but when you see that large of change in reported trends it makes me take note.

The only other choice is to increase the area to spread the heat i.e. larger rotors and stronger pistons to a less degree. Fact is the brakes are at the lower range of what is acceptable for the weight these vehicles are dealing with. Add in a larger tire and or heavier rim and the issue is significantly magnified.
 

Blue Line Fab

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For those of you who want cryogenically frozen rotors, buy a quality standard rotor and send it to a local heat treat facility and have them treated. It's far cheaper than buying them already done.
 

TARM

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The biggest thing there is to take the time and measure the flat and squareness of the rotor absolute and to its centerline.

I have seen way way to many china rotors from the automart type chains, brand new, already "warped" in shape, the rotor face was not perpendicular to the hub face, or both. When I get them I always have them throw it on the lathe and check it. If not I have them pull another pair. I was at a Napa distribution center and having them check it lead to them returning an entire 100 pair lot of rotors. They were so bad you could fit a penny under a straight end held across one side.
 

Dmstrucks02

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Just put these on from brakemotive
They feel good so far, only about 30 miles on them
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