Had a thought, regarding IPR

[Pwnm30rdi3]

I've been chasing my tail on this rough idle and surging problem.

I sent my injectors in to Full Force Diesel for inspection a few months ago. They found debris in the injectors (likely from the SRP 1.1 blowing up).

Got the injectors back and the truck ran better but still not 100%. What are the chances my IPR could be clogged and causing stumbling, surging, & rough idle?

Any guides on getting debris out? Or should I just buy a new IPR?

 

[thuglike]

Could be the IPR...Where are you running your oil return fron the Termy Twins?

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

The oil return comes off the remote IPR block and into the back of the HPOP reservoir. On the OBS reservoir there is a casting plug in the back that can be drilled and tapped to drain into the timing cover. This is where I returned to, Joey @ TE suggested this location.

I also seem to only have 8% of IPR at idle though. The -4an IPR oil return line seems heavily pressurized, so much that it makes noise.

I have surging problems when cruising down the highway, stumbling sounds when in high idle, and a rough idle & lope at start up.

 

[TARM]

Well if you had a hpop grenade and found paftz in the injectors I would change out the ipr judt to be safe as it hax to have a good bit of it go thru thee as well. What oil are you runnning and does it do this with a new oil change?

I would start with at the very least cleaning out the ipr and jnspect it very closely. Also if you have not checked make surs the ipr sleeve is not loose. Ihave had that come loose and the engine would do exactly what you describe.

You certainly could try moving the eturn to the pan just to see if that fixes it. If it does you likley may need a extra feed line up to the res to a make up for the vol loss of not returning to the res.. But at the least you could move it as a way to diagnose where the issue is.

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

Well if you had a hpop grenade and found paftz in the injectors I would change out the ipr judt to be safe as it hax to have a good bit of it go thru thee as well. What oil are you runnning and does it do this with a new oil change?

I would start with at the very least cleaning out the ipr and jnspect it very closely. Also if you have not checked make surs the ipr sleeve is not loose. Ihave had that come loose and the engine would do exactly what you describe.

You certainly could try moving the eturn to the pan just to see if that fixes it. If it does you likley may need a extra feed line up to the res to a make up for the vol loss of not returning to the res.. But at the least you could move it as a way to diagnose where the issue is.

Thanks TARM, your input is very much appreciated.

I'm not sure how it runs with other oil. I'm currently running Mobile Delvac 15w-40. Since I've got about 6,000 miles on my fresh rebuild now, I'm considering switching to full synthetic.

When I threw out my SRP and bought the Twin Terminators, I sprayed some carb cleaner on the IPR and replaced external o-rings. Though, I did not pull the IPR apart to clean it. When you say loose IPR sleeve, do you mean the electromagnet?

I think I'll replace the IPR first and if that doesn't fix my issue, I will move the IPR oil return line to my valve cover temporarily as a test.

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

Update:
Replaced the IPR with an old one I had in the garage after cleaning it thoroughly. My problems still persisted. Going to relocated the IPR oil return line next.

 

[golfer]

I've never understood how it would even be possible for an IPR issue to affect 'an' injector differently from another individual injector...

What set of mechanical conditions have to line up to make this even feasible?

the IPR is simply a valve..

as far as the HPOil system is concerned...the other injectors are just 'valves' as well...

if someone CAN come up with an explanation of how the IPR can even, remotely cause 'an' injector issue...





how do you know the IPR as being the root cause and not one of the other 7 valves in the system????????????

arg.

:shrug:

 

[TyCorr]

I've never understood how it would even be possible for an IPR issue to affect 'an' injector differently from another individual injector...

What set of mechanical conditions have to line up to make this even feasible?

the IPR is simply a valve..

as far as the HPOil system is concerned...the other injectors are just 'valves' as well...

if someone CAN come up with an explanation of how the IPR can even, remotely cause 'an' injector issue...





how do you know the IPR as being the root cause and not one of the other 7 valves in the system????????????

arg.

:shrug:

He doesnt. As process of elimination, right or wrong, after returning the injectors to the builder to fish the srp1.1 guts out of the hpo poppet valves, im going to assume he thinks or is hoping the ipr is the culprit.

I would have suggested replacing it if the injectors were laden with pump guts as surely the injection pressure regulator has to be as well.

Edit:mine sure as the heck was!

 

[golfer]

He doesnt. As process of elimination, right or wrong, after returning the injectors to the builder to fish the srp1.1 guts out of the hpo poppet valves, im going to assume he thinks or is hoping the ipr is the culprit.

I would have suggested replacing it if the injectors were laden with pump guts as surely the injection pressure regulator has to be as well.

Edit:mine sure as the heck was!

still can't put together how movement of that valve could affect movement of another valve in the system.

 

[V-Ref]

still can't put together how movement of that valve could affect movement of another valve in the system.

I'll try....square me away if I miss the mark...

If that valve didn't have full unimpeded range of motion, injection control pressure would fluctuate from the commanded value and cause fluctuations of the individual injection event.

If that valve had debris, that caused additional aeration of HPOil that the individual injectors see, wouldn't that cause fluctuations of the individual injection events.

 

[TARM]

That is what I thought we were discussing that this was not an injector issue if this is then I am lost. My thought process was that the IPR being clogged or in some way hampered from proper function was allowing pressure to fluctuate wildly thus causing the change in idle and surging. The only relation to the injectors for me was the fact that they found metal debris from the blow hpop in the injectors. As the injectors were I assume put on a flow bench and gone thru hopefully eliminating them as the issue, right or wrong as that maybe.

I also made the assumption that this issue started after the Stealth exploded and the only effect I can see that having on the present symptoms is via the HPOP oil system.

Again the issues being a rough idle and surging under throttle.

I would think it helpful if this is indeed an issue logging the ICP IPR data thru some runs would help confirm fluctuations

Another assumption on my part is that codes have been checked and are clear as I would expect that kind of info to be mentioned first. Hopefully that would rule out any sort of IDM electrical related issues on the injector side of things.

Dave,

you have certainly dealt with your fair share of failed Stealths creating issues I would have to assume. What have you found that they tend to do in terms of damage and causing issues? Of course after the pump has been removed from the equation. Have you seen issues similar to those the OPs is describing i.e. rough idle, surging?

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

This post sure generated some talk! Which is good, the more opinions the better.

Sorry if this is lengthy or confusing, I'll try my best.

Ever since my rebuild and introducing the SRP 1.1 to the system, my truck has not ran the same. If I had to guess, I may have had a few hundred miles of a smooth running but I've been chasing various bugs and problems with the truck for 16-18 months.

When the truck still had the SRP 1.1 I experienced a much more violent idle. Probably because it exploded and spewed it's guts through the HPO system. I'm surprised the truck still ran. If I put my hand on the steering wheel, my hand would shake up and down. This is when I pulled the injectors and SRP 1.1 and decided to upgrade to the Twin Termies.
I sent the injectors back to FFD, they visually inspected and then bench tested. Finding that 2 of the 8 injectors were clogged up with metal. They cleaned the injectors and ran another bench test, I was told they passed with flying colors after the cleaning.
I then received my new HPOPs. My truck may have had a bad rough idle with the SRP 1.1, but it never had a surge while driving. I now believe the surge is coming from the IPR oil return line, since I've eliminated the IPR.
I never experience a surge while I have constant pressure on the accelerator pedal. I experience the surge only when holding a constant speed. It tends to manifest itself at 30-38mph, 50-55mph, & 65-75mph. (It does not intensify based on speed) I have had the tires rebalanced twice, and the driveshaft rebuilt and balanced twice. I put the truck in neutral and turned it off doing 80, probably the smoothest ride I've experienced!

I had the truck live tuned, thinking that might help. It helped a bit, the surge isn't unbearable now but it's still there. My tuner thinks that the IPR Oil return line is too small or should be re-routed to a more free flowing area such as the pan or valve cover (instead of the HPOP reservoir).

Currently if I am in Park and Idling and look over at my mirror, I can see them shake with the truck. They shake so much that over the course of a day the mirrors will be aimed at the ground and need to be re-adjusted. I just feel as if this isn't normal. I've been told 300/200+ injectors can run more rough, but how rough is normal? It almost makes the truck no fun to drive.

I have no power loss, this thing will get up and go but the rough running is throwing me a loop.

I've checked oil for aeration, none to mention.
I've checked fuel for aeration, none to mention.
Injector o-rings replaced.
Injectors inspected and flowed.
Live re-tune.
No codes or check engine light, except high back pressure.
Replaced under valve cover harness with rebuilt motor.
Buzz test sounds good.
Visually inspected engine harness and replaced all wire loom.
ICP Sensor is brand new.
IPR was replaced with engine rebuild, used old IPR to verify that the IPR was not causing issues.
Replaced CPS with dark blue.

I haven't checked IDM, not sure how to test this?

Here is link to AE data log @ 60 mph.
http://www.speedyshare.com/bCVBE/60mph-1.xls

 

[TARM]

Well it sure is not goimg to hurt anything to move the ipr return to the a different location on the block instead. The only thing to look for is the stock oil pressure gauge swinging or gettting a low pressure light. That would come from the dual hpops pulling from the res fasted than the lpop thur only the stock feed can keep up with. Infact it will likley happen at low rpms as I had it with my first duals until I added a feed to the res from the block. So expect to have to run another feed. Just use the same port on the res you are currently using for the ipr return hose in the res. IMO I think that is tbe best way to set it up anyways.

One thing likley not related to your issue but I would switch from that cps to either a delphi or bdw. The others can change timjng by a number of degrees and those I mention all tested to have the strongest magnets properly centered about as close to the old blacks and way stronger than the current oem "greys" its really not about color of course as that could change on any run if they so choose.

Try out the ipr return relocation and report back.

 

[golfer]

I'll try....square me away if I miss the mark...

If that valve didn't have full unimpeded range of motion, injection control pressure would fluctuate from the commanded value and cause fluctuations of the individual injection event.

If that valve had debris, that caused additional aeration of HPOil that the individual injectors see, wouldn't that cause fluctuations of the individual injection events.

pressure and aeration would still be constant for allll the injectors..allll the time.

the IPR is 'after' the oil being sent to the heads/injectors.

My point is....why don't we see guy's replacing individual injectors to 'fix' suspected IPR issues, LOL?

from Tarm-

Dave,

you have certainly dealt with your fair share of failed Stealths creating issues I would have to assume. What have you found that they tend to do in terms of damage and causing issues? Of course after the pump has been removed from the equation. Have you seen issues similar to those the OPs is describing i.e. rough idle, surging?

in every instance...the injector bodies had to be pitched into the trash...they were not salvageable.

I could see if the injectors full of SRP junk were cleaned/polished etc, and bodies not replaced...that the OP could absolutely have issues similar to the spool valve 'stiction' as the 6.0L guys get with worn injs.

but no...once the pump/IPR and injs were replaced..every instance the trucks were GTG.

 

[TARM]

Well then sounds like maybe it is the injectors then. Unless it was not mentioned I saw only that they were cleaned out of the shavings but no mention of the bodies being replaced.

Thanks for explaining it Dave.

 

[Layson]

I doubt it is the IPR return line. I had mine originally into the reservoir, then stuck it in the same spot you have it where it drains back down into the cc. Then I just moved it into the oil fill neck tube. It was getting pretty pressurized in the drain tube so I moved it. I had issues with it leaking. So I temporary moved it. During that process I saw no difference in performance. Just like Dave said this is just where the extra oil goes and doesn't have any bearing on how the injectors run.

 

[V-Ref]

Thanks Dave. I always look forward to your contributions on this forum.

 

[Pwnm30rdi3]

So you are suggesting to replace all injectors or at least the bodies? Why did Full force not suggest this when they inspected the injectors?

In these other cases of SRP's exploding, were the trucks still able to run after the SRP blew up? or were they dead in the water?

 

[TARM]

I doubt it is the IPR return line. I had mine originally into the reservoir, then stuck it in the same spot you have it where it drains back down into the cc. Then I just moved it into the oil fill neck tube. It was getting pretty pressurized in the drain tube so I moved it. I had issues with it leaking. So I temporary moved it. During that process I saw no difference in performance. Just like Dave said this is just where the extra oil goes and doesn't have any bearing on how the injectors run.

I do not think that is what Dave was exactly saying in terms of the IPR returning into the Res compartment that feeds the HPOP. But I will re-read it as I may have misunderstood.

As I understood what he said in response to my post is that if it was causing aeration or foam the issues would be consistent and would not just come and go with steady state driving vs during acceleration etc.. The point I got was if the effect is sporadic in driving condition then its not being caused by the that situation once the ipr itself has been ruled out

Now in terms of the line being pressurized I agree 100% its not going to have any effect unless somehow its backing up the IPR from controlling pressure as commanded i.e. backuping up pressure. I would think as long as teh hose inside diameter is larger than the orifice of the IPR and its not reidiculously long run of hose it could not effect the IPR in this manner.

Layson,

Where did you finally end up placing your IPR return? I do not like the idea of it going in the oil fill tube or really anything going in there as I do not like the way it looks. Simple and easy yet so I understand why it can be recommended for a basic setup.

 

[Mr.BigOil]

Most guys run the IPR dump into the timing cover. One way is to drill a hole in the proper location, on the SD reservoir lid. Some use the fancy HPOP gear cover, with the fitting already available(DP Tuner sells those, among others).

The oil fill tube/neck is only used for the rear pump emergency blow off valve.