Heui Injection

[Charles]

So....

A long time ago...... in a galaxy far, far away..... I recall testing proceeding along toward ever lower and lower hydraulic ratios for Heui injectors in an effort to stave off the #1 obstacle to Heui power..... oil per unit time. At the time, the fastest injectors were those with the lowest hydraulic ratio possible with available internal component combinations.... aka, hybrids at a ~5:1 ratio. Dave at Swamps specifically pushed hard enough to produce some one-off P&B's much larger than 7mm that while knowingly lacking the materials and manufacturing processes necessary for actual service in an engine, were sufficient for proof of concept and some dumb fast injection rates were achieved. In reality..... if a person could lock in a vendor to produce such a small batch of P&B's and be willing to pay through the teeth, that path could be taken. But at the time CR seemed the obvious choice, or just put a pump on the engine because price-wise, it was just dumb expensive and therefore dropped.

Fast-forward... to present day....

Surprisingly, people are still playing with the 7.3, the old girl just keeps hanging in there. So.... For anyone interested.... since I clearly will not be having any talks with anyone at Swamps going forward, I have a lingering concept never fleshed out that could prove very cost-effective at reducing hydraulic ratio in a way that should be very reliable and require no special machining.

Reduce the intensifier piston surface area instead.

Yes, the spring is in the way but I honestly think you can just remove it. Then machine up an intensifier of whatever diameter floats your boat ( I have some thoughts on that too) but simplistically, just say something to land on a 4:1 or a 3:1 ratio. Then machine bushings to press into the bodies bringing the intensifier piston bore inline with the new sizing with an O-ring groove.

To account for the missing return spring, just take the delivery pump pressure of 50 or whatever, and run it into something similar to a Gen3 pump, possibly even in the Gen3 style mount and offset the fuel pressure only in the heads themselves up to 400, 600, 1000 or whatever maintains a return amount (and subsequent available stroke) desired.

In this way you could remove the spring entirely, freeing up the way for a very easily machinable intensifier piston and sleeve and also allow for a dynamic injector total capacity based on the delivery fuel pressure you send to the heads. Similar in part to the concept of the PT injection system.

Anyway. I seem to find myself back in the 7.3 game and without anyone to collaborate with, so internet, shoot that down, else I'd be interested to see what a system like that would do up top on a 7.3.

Also... the increased ICP can be managed with altered poppet valve geometry where it is exposed to the ICP in order to balance the static force needed to keep the poppets from floating at 4000 or 5000+ ICP without shimming the poppet spring, delaying open time, necessitating dual IDM's again and all that, yada, yada, yada.

With the lower hydraulic ratios and super large nozzles you could run proportionately higher ICP without blowing the fuel plates to piss because the achieved injection pressure would probably still fall somewhere close to that of a stock AD at full song.... just while pushing fuel through a nozzle 5 or more times larger....

Thoughts?

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Welcome back Charles!!! It been a few years. How's life been treating you? Still hauling hay with the 7.3?

Your concept sounds interesting. It would be interesting to see the idea carried out.

I personally would like to see some larger poppet valves, as well as the needed components to support them.

Sounds like you and Jason need to bounce some ideas around. @Hotrodtractor

 

[lincolnlocker]

So....

A long time ago...... in a galaxy far, far away..... I recall testing proceeding along toward ever lower and lower hydraulic ratios for Heui injectors in an effort to stave off the #1 obstacle to Heui power..... oil per unit time. At the time, the fastest injectors were those with the lowest hydraulic ratio possible with available internal component combinations.... aka, hybrids at a ~5:1 ratio. Dave at Swamps specifically pushed hard enough to produce some one-off P&B's much larger than 7mm that while knowingly lacking the materials and manufacturing processes necessary for actual service in an engine, were sufficient for proof of concept and some dumb fast injection rates were achieved. In reality..... if a person could lock in a vendor to produce such a small batch of P&B's and be willing to pay through the teeth, that path could be taken. But at the time CR seemed the obvious choice, or just put a pump on the engine because price-wise, it was just dumb expensive and therefore dropped.

Fast-forward... to present day....

Surprisingly, people are still playing with the 7.3, the old girl just keeps hanging in there. So.... For anyone interested.... since I clearly will not be having any talks with anyone at Swamps going forward, I have a lingering concept never fleshed out that could prove very cost-effective at reducing hydraulic ratio in a way that should be very reliable and require no special machining.

Reduce the intensifier piston surface area instead.

Yes, the spring is in the way but I honestly think you can just remove it. Then machine up an intensifier of whatever diameter floats your boat ( I have some thoughts on that too) but simplistically, just say something to land on a 4:1 or a 3:1 ratio. Then machine bushings to press into the bodies bringing the intensifier piston bore inline with the new sizing with an O-ring groove.

To account for the missing return spring, just take the delivery pump pressure of 50 or whatever, and run it into something similar to a Gen3 pump, possibly even in the Gen3 style mount and offset the fuel pressure only in the heads themselves up to 400, 600, 1000 or whatever maintains a return amount (and subsequent available stroke) desired.

In this way you could remove the spring entirely, freeing up the way for a very easily machinable intensifier piston and sleeve and also allow for a dynamic injector total capacity based on the delivery fuel pressure you send to the heads. Similar in part to the concept of the PT injection system.

Anyway. I seem to find myself back in the 7.3 game and without anyone to collaborate with, so internet, shoot that down, else I'd be interested to see what a system like that would do up top on a 7.3.

Also... the increased ICP can be managed with altered poppet valve geometry where it is exposed to the ICP in order to balance the static force needed to keep the poppets from floating at 4000 or 5000+ ICP without shimming the poppet spring, delaying open time, necessitating dual IDM's again and all that, yada, yada, yada.

With the lower hydraulic ratios and super large nozzles you could run proportionately higher ICP without blowing the fuel plates to piss because the achieved injection pressure would probably still fall somewhere close to that of a stock AD at full song.... just while pushing fuel through a nozzle 5 or more times larger....

Thoughts?

Missed that brain of yours!! That would be sweet!

 

[Arisley]

Now there is thoughts from the past, Missed your ideas Charles.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Now there is thoughts from the past, Missed your ideas Charles.

Holy shit! Miss you too brother!

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Andy's in the house again!

 

[lincolnlocker]

Holy shit! Miss you too brother!

Those two old ****ers have forgotten more than I learned about a 7.3....

 

[Charles]

In case anybody's listening, another lingering idea.....

MEUI

Meui is soooooo good. Obviously dropping them directly into the heui cups and then chain driving some overhead cams would be killer. Fire them FROM THE IDM. Move some voltages around as needed.

Option I like better due to not having chains and a valvecover through a stock firewall.... build a "pump" using MEUI solenoids or full injectors.

Either find smaller Meui injectors and flip them upside down in a machined pump housing in a V8 configuration, like DOT, again fire them from the IDM and then hardline them over to some proven 8.3 cummins or whatever pencil style injectors you like. Or use off-the-shelf bosch P&B's but just have a fixed setting for the rack that sets maximum available fuel quantity. The key being.... the pump is only 4 plungers deep and has NO GOVERNOR HOUSING, because you are electronically firing them using the Meui solenoids. Meaning real, real packageable in the valley. Also meaning variable timing and variable pulsewidth as well as boost controlled fueling, rev limiter, cruise control and everything else. Cancel the ICP parameters in the PCM so it can STFU about pressure, and otherwise have timing vary with EOT for cold starts and everything else already in place for the Heui.

But...... unlike Heui....Meui is capable of 30k psi.... and unlike Heui..... if you command pw for say 400cc of fuel, you either deliver 400cc EXACTLY when commanded, or you blow a line, break a cam, pump housing, nozzle tip, or SOMETHING.... there is no try, only DO

Just throwing another wild thought out there into 7.3 interland

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Charles, is there a place you recommend for reading up on MEUI?

This sounds like a very interesting concept. I'd like to do some research on it.

 

[Charles]

Charles, is there a place you recommend for reading up on MEUI?

This sounds like a very interesting concept. I'd like to do some research on it.

Cat 3406E is my personal experience but they were in C10's a few others and some of the 31 series although I cannot recall which. They make killer clean power and run like silk.

Bosch makes some, Scania used them, VW used them in the TDI's...

It is super solid tech. Imagine a P7100 that had variable timing and pw and no gov housing in the way that plugged into your IDM....

It would make more power than the P-pump.... at certain parts of the rev range... way more.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Genius

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Cat 3406E is my personal experience but they were in C10's a few others and some of the 31 series although I cannot recall which. They make killer clean power and run like silk.

Bosch makes some, Scania used them, VW used them in the TDI's...

It is super solid tech. Imagine a P7100 that had variable timing and pw and no gov housing in the way that plugged into your IDM....

It would make more power than the P-pump.... at certain parts of the rev range... way more.

Okay, I've always known the 3406E to be a EUI system. But the injectors are a Mechanical Electronic Unit Injector.

Yes, that system could make big power.

At that point I would think going CR would be simpler.

 

[Charles]

Okay, I've always known the 3406E to be a EUI system. But the injectors are a Mechanical Electronic Unit Injector.

Yes, that system could make big power.

At that point I would think going CR would be simpler.

Most things to make power are simpler than building an injection pump, like buying a truck with something other than a 7.3 in it for instance...

But full mechanical 7.3's on the other hand have a very special power output not seen otherwise on that platform, and another kind of simplicity in theory of operation even if not in requirements to get it there.

And the precise sound, feel and upper rpm fueling window available with mechanically driven P&B's have proven themselves beyond theory. The downsides are a truly huge pump, 8 cyl plus governor, that blows right past the intakes and can be found on the shelves of any shop that keeps unicorns in stock, with a hearty pricetag to go with it.... plus fixed timing and pw relationship, plus the death of easy tachometer, cruise control, rev limit, boost fueling and all else that would be a simple chip setting away if you used the PCM the truck already has available. Imagine a 1500hp P-pumped 7.3 that fired right up at 10 degree temps with very little smoke because the timing was like.... 8 degrees, then when you hammered on, timing worked it's way up to 40 ish by 4000 and 50 ish by 5000... so on and so forth.

Need to pull a trailer? One click on the chip... now you went from 800cc with very little aneroid to 180cc and full MAP based fueling.

Commonrail could do that, but not right from the PCM, IDM and sensor / instrument package already on the truck, sitting there fully integrated for free.

Just lose the Rotella part.... trade it for a cam lobe.... and keep all the rest...

Truck is already setup for EUI...... just go from an H... to an M..... and watch out....

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Most things to make power are simpler than building an injection pump, like buying a truck with something other than a 7.3 in it for instance...

But full mechanical 7.3's on the other hand have a very special power output not seen otherwise on that platform, and another kind of simplicity in theory of operation even if not in requirements to get it there.

And the precise sound, feel and upper rpm fueling window available with mechanically driven P&B's have proven themselves beyond theory. The downsides are a truly huge pump, 8 cyl plus governor, that blows right past the intakes and can be found on the shelves of any shop that keeps unicorns in stock, with a hearty pricetag to go with it.... plus fixed timing and pw relationship, plus the death of easy tachometer, cruise control, rev limit, boost fueling and all else that would be a simple chip setting away if you used the PCM the truck already has available. Imagine a 1500hp P-pumped 7.3 that fired right up at 10 degree temps with very little smoke because the timing was like.... 8 degrees, then when you hammered on, timing worked it's way up to 40 ish by 4000 and 50 ish by 5000... so on and so forth.

Need to pull a trailer? One click on the chip... now you went from 800cc with very little aneroid to 180cc and full MAP based fueling.

Commonrail could do that, but not right from the PCM, IDM and sensor / instrument package already on the truck, sitting there fully integrated for free.

Just lose the Rotella part.... trade it for a cam lobe.... and keep all the rest...

Truck is already setup for EUI...... just go from an H... to an M..... and watch out....

To bad swamps CR 7.3 never made it to fruition.

I see your point though with trading the H for an M.

It would be interesting if you would come up with a diagram showing how you would try to lay it all out.

 

[lincolnlocker]

To bad swamps CR 7.3 never made it to fruition.

I see your point though with trading the H for an M.

It would be interesting if you would come up with a diagram showing how you would try to lay it all out.

Might! Lol.. he's a mad scientist

 

[DEEZUZ]

Definitely..... 'mad'.....

 

[Charles]

Just look at the injection system on a 2002 Mack E7. Electronic unit pump that is cam driven for each cylinder with a solenoid I think you will find STRIKINGLY similar to a Heui.... with an injection line running over to a mechanical injector in the normal spot in the head.

Take 8 of those and machine an aluminum pump body to house them in a V configuration, with 4 and 4, solenoids turned toward the valley of the pump and the factory Ford injector harness plugged into them. Idler in the hpop spot and the MEUI pump above at 50% crank. If you can find a cam, great, otherwise the cam is the expense to have made. Replacement unit pumps are cheap. Roughly equivalent to a Heui.

Variable timing, perfect cold starting, boost fuel, electronic rev limiting, cruise control, stock dash.... on and on.... and MORE power on tap than a P-pump. Higher average pressures and variable timing, and variable pressure to pw ratio. Things not possible on a P7100.

On a stock E7 the injection quantity is good for 1650 ft/lbs. More than capable of destroying most 7.3's. But unlike an E7 make, we can choose to inject that fuel at 3000, 4000, 5000+ rpm.... and make juuuuuust a smidge over the factory 400hp of the E7.

 

[Charles]

MEUI technology was before CR and some applications exceed 36k psi, stock.... as a reference for how down to party this tech is from the factory.

The EUP setup on the Macks injects enough fuel for 1650 ish ft/lbs on the E7... stock.... but keep in mind, that's a stock program. Think about a stock program on a set of AD's in a 7.3 vs what a HEUI is capable of.....

Lastly, the 1650ft/lbs is the stock injection quantity times SIX units..... we have 8 units....

So on stock program pw and timing, assuming similar BSFC, which is a good assumption for most DI diesel engines, 2 more unit pumps and injectors is an easy 2000ft/lb of available fuel at the factory pw and rpm....

The faster you spin it, the harder it injects and pressure rises, in fact, care would have to be taken not to get way high on pressure and rip the pump apart or blow lines or nozzles at high rpm. I assure you, those cam driven plungers won't lay down on you up top, just the opposite.

And, as rpm climbs, the available injection stroke INCREASES.... as timing is advanced and activates sooner and sooner into the stroke.

Max late generation CR pressure, but with EIGHT pumping units, each flowing around 400cc STOCK.....

So, imagine, 30k+ psi Commonrail, with 3200cc worth of pump displacement available.... STOCK.... that's what we're talking about. That's factory settings.

That ain't on your grandpa's new CR dodge...

Is anybody out there following?

 

[ncollins64]

I’m following, and would be curious to see someone make this happen.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I've been researching the mack E7 unit pumps.

The housing to hold the unit pumps would be massive. Bigger than a v style P-pump. That can be worked around. My biggest concern is, how do you control injection pressure?

400cc of fuel injected at 25k plus psi in a short time would be north of 1000 hp.

Another question. I have yet to find a higher flowing unit pump. Unless we can get more fuel than 400cc there's not as much incentive to try the system.

It would apper that if the full stock of the unit pump is not being utilized a higher lift cam would increase flow.