Heui Injection

[lincolnlocker]

Definitely..... 'mad'.....

Lol... dude is genius. Have you ever read anything he posted back on psn? Do you remember psn? Lol

 

[lincolnlocker]

MEUI technology was before CR and some applications exceed 36k psi, stock.... as a reference for how down to party this tech is from the factory.

The EUP setup on the Macks injects enough fuel for 1650 ish ft/lbs on the E7... stock.... but keep in mind, that's a stock program. Think about a stock program on a set of AD's in a 7.3 vs what a HEUI is capable of.....

Lastly, the 1650ft/lbs is the stock injection quantity times SIX units..... we have 8 units....

So on stock program pw and timing, assuming similar BSFC, which is a good assumption for most DI diesel engines, 2 more unit pumps and injectors is an easy 2000ft/lb of available fuel at the factory pw and rpm....

The faster you spin it, the harder it injects and pressure rises, in fact, care would have to be taken not to get way high on pressure and rip the pump apart or blow lines or nozzles at high rpm. I assure you, those cam driven plungers won't lay down on you up top, just the opposite.

And, as rpm climbs, the available injection stroke INCREASES.... as timing is advanced and activates sooner and sooner into the stroke.

Max late generation CR pressure, but with EIGHT pumping units, each flowing around 400cc STOCK.....

So, imagine, 30k+ psi Commonrail, with 3200cc worth of pump displacement available.... STOCK.... that's what we're talking about. That's factory settings.

That ain't on your grandpa's new CR dodge...

Is anybody out there following?

Yep! Fallowing.

Those motors just loaf along off idle with more tq than we produce full song..

 

[Charles]

I've been researching the mack E7 unit pumps.

The housing to hold the unit pumps would be massive. Bigger than a v style P-pump. That can be worked around. My biggest concern is, how do you control injection pressure?

400cc of fuel injected at 25k plus psi in a short time would be north of 1000 hp.

Another question. I have yet to find a higher flowing unit pump. Unless we can get more fuel than 400cc there's not as much incentive to try the system.

It would apper that if the full stock of the unit pump is not being utilized a higher lift cam would increase flow.

Injection pressure is a function of plunger travel speed (cam rpm, cam lobe profile) and plunger diameter, vs nozzle orifice flowable area. Welcome to every mech pump on planet earth.

I assure you, 400cc delivered at anything approaching 30k psi with just the nozzle stock on the high hp E7 would tear most any 7.3 block to pieces. Stock they inject enough fuel on a stock engine with emissions reg compliance to produce 1650ft/lbs on SIX unit pumps....

That's about 2000ft/lbs of torque worth of fuel on EIGHT unit pumps...

You think you're setup is ok with that? LOL

I'd be more interested in something like, limiting to say 950 ft/lbs and spinning a stock forged motor with springs, studs and pushrods to say 5000 or 5500 for peak, and making 1000 on a GT55-94 as a single. Then coming back down to a sewing machine smooth idle because my ENGINE OIL isn't driving my injectors!

Or, on a built engine, have that same buttery smooth idle but let the fuel flow on up to 1200 - 1500 or so ft/lbs of torque with compounds kissing 120 - 150 or so psi and making 1500 or so at 5000 with no idle smoke, buttery smooth, clean drivability and a trans that will live.

Or.... let it float on up to 150+ psi on the compounds and open the pw a bit more and do torque comparable to a heui 7.3 on nitrous making 1000hp at 3000rpm.... but at 5000 to 5500 or so and do 1800+ hp and drive around clean and crisp. Grind a little metal and spin her on up over 6k and it will go over 2k....

Not real sure where you would need all the extra fuel over what the E7 has just to consider it "worth it".

LOL

Hell, I would rather drive a MEUI truck at 300hp, because it would be so consistent and crisp, like a nice P7100 truck. Perfectly crisp accurate injection.... not to foamed up Rotella shit-show....

 

[Charles]

To add..... ever DRIVEN a MEUI truck? MEUI is one of the reasons the Cat 3406E is one of the greatest engines ever. Drive one.... it shows.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

To add..... ever DRIVEN a MEUI truck? MEUI is one of the reasons the Cat 3406E is one of the greatest engines ever. Drive one.... it shows.

I've driven them. The last one is around 750hp and north of 2400ftlb. This was at the flywheel.

It felt real good.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Injection pressure is a function of plunger travel speed (cam rpm, cam lobe profile) and plunger diameter, vs nozzle orifice flowable area. Welcome to every mech pump on planet earth.

I assure you, 400cc delivered at anything approaching 30k psi with just the nozzle stock on the high hp E7 would tear most any 7.3 block to pieces. Stock they inject enough fuel on a stock engine with emissions reg compliance to produce 1650ft/lbs on SIX unit pumps....

That's about 2000ft/lbs of torque worth of fuel on EIGHT unit pumps...

You think you're setup is ok with that? LOL

I'd be more interested in something like, limiting to say 950 ft/lbs and spinning a stock forged motor with springs, studs and pushrods to say 5000 or 5500 for peak, and making 1000 on a GT55-94 as a single. Then coming back down to a sewing machine smooth idle because my ENGINE OIL isn't driving my injectors!

Or, on a built engine, have that same buttery smooth idle but let the fuel flow on up to 1200 - 1500 or so ft/lbs of torque with compounds kissing 120 - 150 or so psi and making 1500 or so at 5000 with no idle smoke, buttery smooth, clean drivability and a trans that will live.

Or.... let it float on up to 150+ psi on the compounds and open the pw a bit more and do torque comparable to a heui 7.3 on nitrous making 1000hp at 3000rpm.... but at 5000 to 5500 or so and do 1800+ hp and drive around clean and crisp. Grind a little metal and spin her on up over 6k and it will go over 2k....

Not real sure where you would need all the extra fuel over what the E7 has just to consider it "worth it".

LOL

Hell, I would rather drive a MEUI truck at 300hp, because it would be so consistent and crisp, like a nice P7100 truck. Perfectly crisp accurate injection.... not to foamed up Rotella shit-show....

Put it that way. 400cc should do the job. But, if I have the ability to spin 5k I want 1500hp plus on tap there. LOL.

The whole point in switching out would to get all I can up top. Why? Because I can.

I have no doughts tuned and setup right the meui system would beat the heui to death. Even running stock hp levels. Smooth crisp and clean.

Compounds are a must have for me. My next build is going to be done around compounds.

Why did you have to come along and make dissatisfied? Now I want a MEUI 7.3.

Do you happen to know the stroke of the E7 unit pumps to achieve 400cc? I can't find much info online anywhere on them.

What voltage is needed to run the solenoid on the unit pump?

 

[Charles]

If you injected the full quantity that the stock E7 produces 1650ft/lbs with but sized your nozzle flow to keep it from overpressurizing and blowing up at 6k rpm.... and.... you could squeeze the intake air with some stupid high, well cooled boost and actually fill the cylinders with enough oxygen to match the E7 at its peak torque rpm.... you WOULD make over 2500hp on exactly the same injection quantity as the stock E7 was moving at say 1500rpm.

And unlike HEUI.... the MEUI gets more and more violent up top.... so that injection window from 1500rpm WILL BE UPHELD! Even if it means tearing the pump in half, blowing a line, splitting a nozzle, breaking the cam, tearing teeth off the gears...... it will push harder and harder and HARDER until the FUEL GOES IN THE HOLE!

This is why you would almost have to measure line pressure and keep upping the nozzle size as you increased rpm and/or called for more pw, because if you demand too much, shit will blow apart OR it WILL BE INJECTED.....no third option....

This technology can trample CR at any specific rpm range on pressure. And each cylinder has a plunger that strokes only when that cylinder needs it and not shared and not trying to hold pressure all the rest of the two revs of the motor.... only for the 1500us or so you activate the MEUI solenoid... and BOOM.... 30k ish psi

On top of that.... same variable timing and pw, boost referenced fuel, temperature and pressure environmental all baked into the PCM, instrument and sensor package on the truck for free....

Dodge guys CAN'T run Meui... like this. They don't have an EUI truck from the factory with EVERYTHING built right in.

I'm not worried about the E7 eup stroke... with stock tuning it's more than enough. Don't forget, the stock program is certainly not using all the OEM stroke anyway....

For voltages, don't know but that solenoid appearance suuuuuuuurre makes me feel confident that it won't be a problem!

LOL

 

[Charles]

I cannot express how exciting this concept is....

I have checked, rechecked and checked my math again....MEUI technology IS GOING TO MAKE POWER......

And...... keep engines alive. The STOCK PCM has ALL the tables you need! IT IS MADE FOR UNIT INJECTION!

Even with compounds set to go full kill 150+lbs of boost at 4500+ rpm you have a fuel vs rpm graph BUILT IN that you can use to perfectly SHAPE your power curve to keep shit cool down low and bring the fuel in exactly as the bottom end can take it.

And with MEUI..... as rpm climbs.... it gets more and MORE violent!

Is everybody on board with how powerful this solution is for trucks already setup with EUI control?

If you could keep the heads on..... watch the F out with the 4v 6oh.....

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

I'm on board for sure.

We just need hypermax to build us a custom block that can except the Unit pumps in the valley and then have a custom cam built to run them.

Getting the unit pumps mounted and working will be the big hurdle.

Everything after that would be simple.

Hypermax already has the sleeves needed to run the 8.3 Cummins injectors as well as valve covers that allow the fuel line through to the injectors. Bolt on components make a job simple.


Now switching subjects.

I'm pretty sure our IDM can fire LB7 duramax injectors. They are solenoid activated and take 92 or 96 volts to open. I wonder if the 100v IDM would work? If the IDM can fire them, tuning the needed PW would be simple using the OEM hardware.

The only sticky point is controling the CP3. The pressure regulator on the CP3 oparats like the IPR valve on the hpop. They are just backwards. The CP3 PRV is closed with no power, the IPR valve is wide open with no power.

We might be able to trade the ICP sensor plug and use it for a rail sensor. They both operate off the same basic principle. Both have three wires. They just operate under different psi. The 7
3 tuning table don't go to 30k psi. Maybe we could manipulate it enough to do so? If not maybe we could use an inline device to dumb the psi signal down from the rail sensor by 10? 5000 psi in would be 500 psi out, 30k in would be 3k out.

Do they make a device then can do that?

As you can see, I'm still on the CR kick.

 

[Charles]

Yeah...... F... common rail. Not interested in playing electrical gymnastics to run a system the truck is NOT already built for, in order to LOSE a few thousand psi and get back to something that has the option to drop pressure again...

No thanks.

Having fuel injection stroke mechanically locked to crank rotation IS the awesomeness.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Having fuel injection stroke mechanically locked to crank rotation IS the awesomeness.

I agree with that. I'd like that option thebest out of all three. The 3406E that I have run had crisp and quick throttle response.

My deal is, which one would be easier to implement? Both are leaps and bounds ahead of HEUI.

 

[Charles]

I think a pump body to hold the unit pumps together exactly like P&B's on an inline P7100. Hell, the Mack EUP's even have staggered two bolt flanges, just like a barrel. A big ass barrel but that's the meat needed for the pressure.

You configure them 4 and 4 in a V with their own cam. Should be similar to 4 HEUI's deep toward the turbo. They should fit ok.

Electronics are very likely compatible right from the word go. Turn the key and it fires with the timing and pw you write into the chip you already have on the PCM you already have, with the sensors and instrumentation you already have not knowing this 7.3 from any other.

Your program would just neutralize ICP in the strategy. Better yet, you could use a variable voltage to the ICP sensor circuit to purposefully have say a valet mode on a switch, or to blip the throttle on shifts, or to have different amounts of fuel on a twist knob with 2 or 3 settings that coincide with different voltages that the PCM sees as 500, 1000, 1500 psi and puts you into different parts of the pw map. Pw map would have corresponding little terraces in it matching each jump. Imagine the PCS sends a voltage on an analog output to this ICP circuit that tells the PCM you are always at 1000 ICP, except right on the shift it sends a "blip" command on upshifts that tells it 500 ICP for a few milliseconds that corresponds to a 30% drop in pw/engine power for an amount of time determined by you for each shift.... On a downshift the PCS could "blip" the ICP circuit to read 1500 psi and ADD say 30% pw for a few milliseconds to smooth the downshifts...

Basically..... the stock electronics are very down to party with MEUI..... it's just EUI as far as the truck is concerned.

 

[Blowby]

Who is this Charles character...... ?

 

[Chvyrkr]

Once all the electrical is sorted out for MEUI, or the 4.5 ratio injectors that HRT and Cass were working are finally installed in a truck…

Who is still making a billet block for 7.3’s?

 

[ncollins64]

Unlimited diesel is having someone make their billet 7.3 blocks

 

[Chvyrkr]

Cool.

I know a machinist and shop capable of building a 8 cylinder pump.

Who has access to an engine dyno for R&D?

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

Cool.

I know a machinist and shop capable of building a 8 cylinder pump.

Who has access to an engine dyno for R&D?

P-Pump? Or the housing to hold the unit pumps?

Looks like this thread is drawing some of the old names back to the forum.

@Charles
The hardest and most costly part of a MEUI conversion will be the housing and cam to run the unit pumps. I have no way of building either one. The unit pump housing would need to be cnc machined.


I do believe it'll run very well though. It could very possibly be the best all around setup period.

 

[Chvyrkr]

I should caveat that I don’t know s__t about the unit pumps…

And I’m sure there are many machine shops that could build an assembly to run 8 unit pumps.

 

[Chvyrkr]

Also, it warms my heart that we went from low injection ratio to MEUI in one thread in like 20 posts.

 

[Powerstroke Cowboy]

If somebody would or could build the housing needed to hold 8 unit pumps we would be close to being done.

Hypermax already has the valve covers and everything under the valve covers needed for the conversion.