Horrible miss need help!!!

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 1, 2012

Just a quick little update. Got the injectors and chip pulled yesterday only found two things that seemed alittle odd to me. I went to do the drivers side first and upon pulling the vc it looked to me like cyl.2 injector looked like it wasnt seated all the way so I pulled it out and upon inspection there was a brownish "gel" on the bottom of the injector. Like the part that is pressed down into the cup. The brown past smelled like diesel. So I wiped it off real good and put the injector back in hoping maybe that was my problem. With the assistance of a rubber mallet I made for certain that the injector was seated all the way this time so I purged the cyl. reconnected everything and gave it a try no real improvment so I said screw it and pulled all 8. The only other injector that look weird was cyl.3. The base of the injector(that seats in the cup) was very dirty like combustion was leaking past the copper washer or something but the washer itseld looked fine. The nozzle on this injector was also covered in way more soot than any of the other injectors and coincidentally enough injector 3 is also the injector with a chip on the top of the solenoid pack. Maybe this is the problem? I don't know but I overnighted them to Jim at Rosewood so I should get a call tomorrow or Wednesday with their findings. Also really looking forward to getting my chip back from matt at gearhead. I've heard lots of good things about his tunes and am axnious to try em out. Keep strokin'!

woodduck97 · Oct 1, 2012

So what did you seat them with the first time you installed them?

golfer · Oct 1, 2012

woodduck97 said:
So what did you seat them with the first time you installed them?

:whs:

unfortunately, this sounds like an installation error...

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 1, 2012

Maybe but I don't think so. The injector looked like it wasn't seated all the way but I know for sure it was when I reinstalled it and it looked the same as before. I think my eyes were just messing with me. I even checked it with a straight edge. And there was no improvement in running. But maybe it wasn't. Would that explain the brown "gel" on it?

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 1, 2012

I used the same rubber mallet to seat them the first time. It was my first time doing injectors but it's a pretty clear sound when they seat all the way and I'm pretty sure they seated the first time.

TARM · Oct 1, 2012

With the used washers that had already been compressed or exposed to the crap from the cylinder what are the chances of a good seal by just reinstalling them?

I have read a number of time as well as been told to never reuse the washers. They are cheap so I replace them along with orings if any one of them looks bad I do the set. Not like I have done it tons of times but for the cost it seems like cheap insurance to having to tear it open because of an issue.

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 2, 2012

TARM said:
With the used washers that had already been compressed or exposed to the crap from the cylinder what are the chances of a good seal by just reinstalling them?

I have read a number of time as well as been told to never reuse the washers. They are cheap so I replace them along with orings if any one of them looks bad I do the set. Not like I have done it tons of times but for the cost it seems like cheap insurance to having to tear it open because of an issue.

I see what your getting at. I went a head and pulled all 8 and sent them to Jim he will have them in his hands by 10:30 today so we'll see if there is anything wrong with them internally.I know he is definitely going to want to replace that one solenoid pack if nothing else. theres no way of knowing if the injector wasn't seated all the way the first time around but I know 100% that they will be this time around. I am very curious what the deal was the the brown "gel" though. Is that from diesel and oil mixing in the injector cup? never seen congealed(spelling?) diesel on a motor that wasn't sitting for years and years.

TARM · Oct 2, 2012

I would think so and you likley had some oil down in there when you pulled it. With it up some who's to say you were not getting some leakage around the o-rings as well. When they come back to you they will have new o-rings and washers. As long as you make sure you hear/feel that pop and solid hit when you seat them and are sure to tq them to the proper spec you should have no issues. When that wash pops in and hits the bottom of the cup it has a tell tale feel almost all the time. If you can not do it with just body weight force then a dead blow hammer I have found can work well and not do damage if you show some commonsense restraint.

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 3, 2012

TARM said:
I would think so and you likley had some oil down in there when you pulled it. With it up some who's to say you were not getting some leakage around the o-rings as well. When they come back to you they will have new o-rings and washers. As long as you make sure you hear/feel that pop and solid hit when you seat them and are sure to tq them to the proper spec you should have no issues. When that wash pops in and hits the bottom of the cup it has a tell tale feel almost all the time. If you can not do it with just body weight force then a dead blow hammer I have found can work well and not do damage if you show some commonsense restraint.

Ya I could've sworn that I payed attention for that sound on every injector the first time around but who knows. One thing I know I didn't do which may have caused an issue is I didnt completely clean out the injector cups several of them had alittle oil/fuel in the bottom and I just tapped the injectors down figuring the injector seating would squish it all out. I'm thinking now maybe that wasn't such a good idea so this time around I will rig up a little straw onto the sop vac and make sure they are all dry and clean before popping the injectors in. I will also make 100% certain that every injector is seated. Spoke to Jim yesterday and he said all the internals looked brand new and they all flowed spot on up till 3000psi icp, after that they all fell flat on their face so hopefully gearhead doesn't demand more than 3000psi icp and he says there is no reason the won't own up to their full potential. So once I get the injectors back in and the chip with the new tunes in if the problem still persist I will hunt down another IDM to try and see what that does. I will get the truck running nice and smooth if its the last thing I do! LOL:swordfight:

ryanss22 · Oct 3, 2012

Well that's at least a lil good news, its not an injector issue.. One thing you can. Cross off the list.. Yes make sure your inj cups are clean and shine a light down into them looking for cracks.. Hope you get.it figured out soon

TARM · Oct 3, 2012

JohnnyBeGood said:
YOne thing I know I didn't do which may have caused an issue is I didnt completely clean out the injector cups several of them had alittle oil/fuel in the bottom and I just tapped the injectors down figuring the injector seating would squish it all out.

It could be possible the hydraulics created by the thick oil being down in the cup could have prevented it from ever being seated. I can certainly see it preventing a good seal.

I am anal about getting things clean before I put things together or back together. I use my parts washer/cleaner tank a lot. The injector cups, with all the oil drained out of the rails, I suck out any oil and crude that might have drained into the cup. Then I clean up with a cloth on a wood rod that I made to the right size. Then I used a brass bore brush that I threaded to a rod to allow it to reach into the cup to get a fresh clean surface and then finally wipe it down with a cloth over the brush to get anything left out with a nice tight fit and gets into the corners really well. Looks shiny and new when done. My thinking is that it will make it easier to see any cracks if/when they happen. Have not had one yet so its just a swag.

Bolts and nuts appropriate parts all get washed and steel/brass or old tooth brushed, degreased, etc. Fasteners all get an appropriate form of loctite adhesive and for aluminum or stainless steel, which have high susceptibility to galling, high-temp anti-seize. I swear loctite has an adhesive for just about every possible scenario. Most (work very well. Way more than the typical Red(#262) and Blue(#242) most only know of.

Gearhead · Oct 3, 2012

The hotest part of the injector is near the tip. If oil gets down to the head of the injector it is probably just coking up from the high cyclinder temps.

TARM · Oct 3, 2012

So that is what the goo and sludge stuff likley is that he saw?

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 4, 2012

TARM said:
It could be possible the hydraulics created by the thick oil being down in the cup could have prevented it from ever being seated. I can certainly see it preventing a good seal.

I am anal about getting things clean before I put things together or back together. I use my parts washer/cleaner tank a lot. The injector cups, with all the oil drained out of the rails, I suck out any oil and crude that might have drained into the cup. Then I clean up with a cloth on a wood rod that I made to the right size. Then I used a brass bore brush that I threaded to a rod to allow it to reach into the cup to get a fresh clean surface and then finally wipe it down with a cloth over the brush to get anything left out with a nice tight fit and gets into the corners really well. Looks shiny and new when done. My thinking is that it will make it easier to see any cracks if/when they happen. Have not had one yet so its just a swag.

Bolts and nuts appropriate parts all get washed and steel/brass or old tooth brushed, degreased, etc. Fasteners all get an appropriate form of loctite adhesive and for aluminum or stainless steel, which have high susceptibility to galling, high-temp anti-seize. I swear loctite has an adhesive for just about every possible scenario. Most (work very well. Way more than the typical Red(#262) and Blue(#242) most only know of.

I agree. I think that was a big big mistake on my part and a lesson learned. At this point I just hope that was indeed the problem and will be sure not to make those same mistakes twice.

TARM said:
So that is what the goo and sludge stuff likley is that he saw?

x'2? This is my thinking behind it.

TARM · Oct 4, 2012

Live and learn; always seems to sinks in better when its from a mistake rather than a success.

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 4, 2012

I hear that and everyone on here has been a huge help. Injectors and chip will be going back in first thing Saturday morning. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully it goes as good as fishing did tonight.

powerSmokin · Oct 4, 2012

I had a similar issue but upon further inspection I needed new springs. Valves weren't quite closing at the right time causing a crappy idle and a small studder at times. I read through all your posts and didn't see if you checked your push rods and rockers might as well do that since you have the injectors away.

TARM · Oct 5, 2012

Good point. I am willing to bet most engines over 100K need new springs if they are chipped.

JohnnyBeGood · Oct 5, 2012

TARM said:
Good point. I am willing to bet most engines over 100K need new springs if they are chipped.

I would love to do springs and pushrods but am terrified to try it in truck.

TARM · Oct 7, 2012

Awe its not bad at all. Not as bad as head studs and those are done by very green guys.

All it takes is taking your time being patient and some basic common sense. Give yourself 2x the time it is suppose to take at a minimum that way you will not have time issues if you run into something that slows you down.

Make sure you have all the parts and tools you need to do it. Print out the directions and have them with you as well as reading them over a number of times online and looking at the pics. When you are in there make sure to cover up any holes that small things can fall down into on the engine.

The biggest things are just making sure to have each cylinder at TDC and confirm it with something like a dowel rod you can stick down the glow plug port. When you have the first one down mark the rod and that will let you know how close you are on the others as you go. Its cheap insurance and give yourself a weekend so you have all the time you could need.