IPR or ICP going bad?

[Brickman]

Did a ton of research and still not convinced what it is. Here are the symptoms:

Bad fuel mileage, low power, high egt and rough idle. Gets worse when warm. When it downshifts pulling a trailer the egt's skyrocket and I get a bunch of black smoke out of the exhaust pipe. This is at high boost levels of around 26 psi. Truck started to stumble and die. Engine would cut out and then catch again. The stumble is much worse when warm and the truck is idling. Does it really bad on a 80 HP Tow Tune from DP-Tuner. Switched to stock tune and the stumble stopped.

I scanned it with AE and no codes. Ran a buzz test and all of the injectors sounded really good. ICP pressure looked good and so did ICP voltage. Did not get to run a WOT test on the IPR as I was short on time. Oil has 1000 miles on it and fuel filter had about 7000 miles. Truck has 173,000 miles. ICP replace 60,000 miles ago. IPR is original. CPS has about 20,000 miles on it and is the dark blue version. I do have a up pipe leak but it would not cause the stumble and rough idle. Where do I start as I have to use the truck again this weekend pulling a 8,000 lbs trailer and don't want to get stranded? Thanks.

Mark

 

[TARM]

Is this something that just started to happen all of a sudden and all these symptoms at once or has it come on more gradually or in parts in terms of the various symptoms?

Did you run a contribution test as that will show whats going on with balance between each cylinder and thus look at not only the CPS readings but if compression and valve seal is fairly consistent will show injector balance.

I would switch to a Delphi or BW CPS so you can be sure of what you are seeing in terms of cylinder balance on the perdels. That stumbling and almost dieing can sure be bad CPS which can go bad at any time. Check the end of the CPS when you pull it to see if there is any wear on the end probe/magnet end.

The high EGT and black smoke could be a boost or up pipe leak. 26 PSI seems very high for a stock turbo to last as well as not have high EGTs.

Unplug the ICP sensor and see if the idle changes. Look for oil in the plug. Was the ICP you replaced it with ford/IH or aftermarket?

The bad idle when warm could be worn injector or its orings issue.

When you said IPR/ICP numbers look good what are they and what conditions did you check them in and compare to?
With AE log the ICP IPR numbers pressure % volts when cold and fully warm (where the idle changes to poor) and report back.

Check your oil dip stick also cold and fully warm. Looking for bubbles (aeration)

 

[Brickman]

TARM, thanks for the reply. I started on gradual. The truck used to be able to pull a 6500 lbs trailer over the passes to Eisenhowe tunnel at 65 mph with no problem. It was all I could do to hold 65 MPH on flat ground last week. I have the Turbomaster set to dump boost at 24 - 26 psi. Truck has a boost fooler as well.

ICP was replaced by a local shop. Not sure but I bet it was aftermarket. I have a grey CPS to try from International. Numbers were on a cold engine. I will get it up to temp and record the numbers again. I have a set of bellowed up pipes on the way for the exhaust leak.

Only weird thing was the stumble and miss with the tune on but not when it was stock. Only thought was the tune was driving one of the sensors out of what it was capable of if it was degraded. No codes though which makes it tough.

 

[lincolnlocker]

Is this something that just started to happen all of a sudden and all these symptoms at once or has it come on more gradually or in parts in terms of the various symptoms?

Did you run a contribution test as that will show whats going on with balance between each cylinder and thus look at not only the CPS readings but if compression and valve seal is fairly consistent will show injector balance.

I would switch to a Delphi or BW CPS so you can be sure of what you are seeing in terms of cylinder balance on the perdels. That stumbling and almost dieing can sure be bad CPS which can go bad at any time. Check the end of the CPS when you pull it to see if there is any wear on the end probe/magnet end.

The high EGT and black smoke could be a boost or up pipe leak. 26 PSI seems very high for a stock turbo to last as well as not have high EGTs.

Unplug the ICP sensor and see if the idle changes. Look for oil in the plug. Was the ICP you replaced it with ford/IH or aftermarket?

The bad idle when warm could be worn injector or its orings issue.

When you said IPR/ICP numbers look good what are they and what conditions did you check them in and compare to?
With AE log the ICP IPR numbers pressure % volts when cold and fully warm (where the idle changes to poor) and report back.

Check your oil dip stick also cold and fully warm. Looking for bubbles (aeration)

yeah, WHS^^^

 

[TARM]

No the IH ones are crap as well. They are all the same thing. Some testing was done and it shows an up to 4 or 6 degree of timing (SOI) change switching between CPS. Do some checking for yourself on the two CPS I mention. TDS and F-T You can get them from advanced auto but they do cost more like the old ones used to before the recall. At least then you know you are getting a good reading and timing etc.

I doubt that is all your issue. As its come on gradually it could be a few things combined from wear and age. Try going thru those things listed and lets see what you get.

The stumble with the tune on could be the chip itself. Make sure you tape it in but do not use to much tension as you can side load it and actually cause connection issues. Just snug to hold it in place.

Many times that stumble die is a sign of the CPS if everything else is OK.

Unplugging the ICP and visual inspection will at least give a basic function test that its working at all. The idle should change when you unplug it and it will start to cycle up and down over a few minutes or so. If their is no differnce when you unplug it then the ICP needs to be swapped out and get it from Ford.

 

[superpsd]

I had been having an stumble that would happen every blue moon. Only a stumble after a long trip. Then on a trip camping the truck cutout and threw a cel twice. It made it home fine . I figured it was the cps and had one in the glove box. The next day the engine was running like crap. Idling fine but missing and stumbling under load. Got to work threw the new Cps in and problem is 100% gone.

 

[gnxtc2]

No the IH ones are crap as well. They are all the same thing. Some testing was done and it shows an up to 4 or 6 degree of timing (SOI) change switching between CPS. Do some checking for yourself on the two CPS I mention. TDS and F-T You can get them from advanced auto but they do cost more like the old ones used to before the recall. At least then you know you are getting a good reading and timing etc.

I doubt that is all your issue. As its come on gradually it could be a few things combined from wear and age. Try going thru those things listed and lets see what you get.

The stumble with the tune on could be the chip itself. Make sure you tape it in but do not use to much tension as you can side load it and actually cause connection issues. Just snug to hold it in place.

Many times that stumble die is a sign of the CPS if everything else is OK.

Unplugging the ICP and visual inspection will at least give a basic function test that its working at all. The idle should change when you unplug it and it will start to cycle up and down over a few minutes or so. If their is no differnce when you unplug it then the ICP needs to be swapped out and get it from Ford.

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f47/cps-testing-information-297638/

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[TARM]

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f47/cps-testing-information-297638/

Billy T.
[email protected]

Yep that be one of them I was talking about for sure. I love it when people are willing to take the time and really dig into an issue or claims to see what is really going on rather than just spewing whatever the popular line is.


Those thread got me curious enough I ended up doing the same thing. I had gone from a old black Ford which I made it very clear not to touch when I took in the X for a recall and not only did they remove it but threw it away. Never used them again and warned everyone I know as that really really pissed me off and I made it super clear to them it would.

Anyways I lost 1-2 mpg the idle got rougher and it would now fail on 2 cylinders it was always clear on before. Went thru all kinds of CPS various ones from IH aftermarket. Had a bunch laying around so I figured why not. I started cutting them open. But honestly the easiest test is just to see which one will pick up the heaviest iron based item. Then measure from the mounting surface to end to see if they vary in closeness. Last would be if you can tell by looking where the magnet center is to see if its offset as that has an effect as well.

Put in the Delphi and contribution tests come back clean once again.

For a long time I really did not understand what the Contribution tests was exactly measuring and how. Dave@ Swamps took the time to explain it in detail and then everything clicked after that.

 

[Brickman]

So here is where it stands. Replaced the CPS with a BW CPS. Took it for a spin and when I get into the throttle hard it will stumble and buck. Pulled the ICP and it ran a little smoother but would still stumble and buck under hard acceleration. It will do this in stock and the 80 HP econo tunes. I tried to record the numbers on AE but with my inexperience I overwrote the file. I will have to head back out again to record the numbers. It did pass the cylinder contribution test and the KOER tests. Only coded were AIH and EBPV which are both gone.
So my thoughts:
1. Not the CPS
2. Probably not the ICP

Could be:
1. IPR
2. PCM or chip issue
3. HPOP
4. Fuel Issue
5. IDM

Are there any other sensors that would make it cut out like that?

Mark

 

[gnxtc2]

I would pull the VC and check the UVCH. Also check if they unclipped from the gasket. Also check the harness that goes over the driver side VC for any chaffing.

Also check the pins on the IDM for any corrosion. On the SD trucks, the IDM is in a PITA location to get to. At the last resort, pull the IDM and shake it if you hear any water or rattling.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[TARM]

No codes and it stumbles under heavy throttle. With the engine fully warm, now with the new CPS, run a cylinder contribution test. If that checks out. Maybe to be sure on the elecrical side pull the idm connector and ohm out all the connections to the injectors as that confirms the complete circuit for each. I would look at the fuel side. You could log the icp psi/ipr % and volt but if it is the fuel and its dropping enough to stumble it could also allow galling of the barrel and plungers thus ruining the injectors. Given that I think I would confirm fuel pressure first, or at the same time, so as to not do more possible damage.

 

[Powerstroke Man 6.4]

Check out my thread may help with fixing the problem.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53372

 

[Brickman]

So I give up. So far I have replaced the IDM, the IPR, the fuel pump, the fuel filter, battery cables, and the CPS. Truck still is hard starting and has a heavy miss on acceleration. Passes the cylinder contribution test and all other test with AE. Number 3 is a little week on the buzz test but they all sound good. No codes other than ones I have should have due to gutted AIH and EBPV. Pulled the ICP and still hard starting. I have attached the AE file from today. You can see at very first in the graph a large spike. This is when the truck started. I also have misses when it accelerates.

Mark

 

[gnxtc2]

Did you do a compression test or ran the truck with the valve covers off? With the covers off, look for any oil getting past the o-rings and check the volume of oil coming from the oil deflectors. Check to see if there are any broken rockers/bent push rods.

If all electrical checks out, I would look into mechanical.

Billy T.
[email protected]

 

[Brickman]

I forgot tot mention that the fuel filter was clean with 10,000 miles on it. No black at all in the fuel bowl.

 

[Dieselsvt]

Did you do a compression test or ran the truck with the valve covers off? With the covers off, look for any oil getting past the o-rings and check the volume of oil coming from the oil deflectors. Check to see if there are any broken rockers/bent push rods.

If all electrical checks out, I would look into mechanical.

Billy T.
[email protected]

+1

Sounds more like an injector dumping too much.

 

[mandkole]

Did you do a compression test or ran the truck with the valve covers off? With the covers off, look for any oil getting past the o-rings and check the volume of oil coming from the oil deflectors. Check to see if there are any broken rockers/bent push rods.

If all electrical checks out, I would look into mechanical.

Billy T.
[email protected]

^^ this. To me, the ICP seems low-- maybe they do, but ive never seen a truck run well with idle ICP below 500. Have you checked the HPO rail pressure (hand pump test)? You could also pull VCs, remove injector power and crank the motor to build pump/rail pressure, looking for oil getting out around the injectors. Did fuel pressure under load get confirmed?

 

[Brickman]

No way to check fuel pressure under load and I will need to order a gauge for that. I will start pulling the top apart so I can pull the VC's. I don't have any good diesel shops close by and the local dealer is not recommended from past experience.

It seems like it takes a while for the ICP to build enough pressure to start. Once the truck starts it runs at a really high idle for about 2 - 3 seconds and then calms down. The new IPR made it run much smoother but still had the miss. I looked at the AE graphs and from what I can remember the stumbles are where the ICP voltage drops off and then back. It is just a little drop in the graph but it is when the truck misses. I am also going to pull the chip and see what that does. One less more thing to eliminate if the problem is still there.

And this is a long shot - but would a bad pedal sensor cause symptoms like this. I installed a new pedal in June as I was loosing the pedal. It seemed to fix things for a couple of weeks and then the missing issues reappeared.

 

[lincolnlocker]

No way to check fuel pressure under load and I will need to order a gauge for that. I will start pulling the top apart so I can pull the VC's. I don't have any good diesel shops close by and the local dealer is not recommended from past experience.

It seems like it takes a while for the ICP to build enough pressure to start. Once the truck starts it runs at a really high idle for about 2 - 3 seconds and then calms down. The new IPR made it run much smoother but still had the miss. I looked at the AE graphs and from what I can remember the stumbles are where the ICP voltage drops off and then back. It is just a little drop in the graph but it is when the truck misses. I am also going to pull the chip and see what that does. One less more thing to eliminate if the problem is still there.

And this is a long shot - but would a bad pedal sensor cause symptoms like this. I installed a new pedal in June as I was loosing the pedal. It seemed to fix things for a couple of weeks and then the missing issues reappeared.

post a video of it running

live life full throttle

 

[Brickman]

Well, I am guilty of asking for help and then never coming back to say what fixed it. So technically this is a zombie thread that now has an answer.

This truck is still having some issues years later but the entire cause of this problem was the CPS. I was using a Dark Blue CPS and then the aftermarket CPS and they were the reason for all of the problems. Once I put a Ford CPS in the truck it got rid hesitation and the hard starting. I appreciate all of the help in trying to figure out the issue. Not long after I got the truck running well again it lost the turbo and I had some injector problems. I am still fighting issues today with it and hope to one day finally get them all ironed out. Thanks for all of the help originally and I am sorry that it took me so long to come back and state what the final fix was.

Mark