Looking for advice on compound turbos

[co04cobra]

Not exactly on a budget. More looking for bang for buck may be a better way of putting it.

Overall picture I guess is. I want something that will start to spool by 1200ish rpm (which Im assuming will make it where I can get off the line in 3rd). While also will support a min. of 650+hp. If I change the whole setup Ill change injectors too.

Just weighing options I guess. Because at that point I have been thinking of just saving the cash and jumping into a 6.4. I was doubting I could change the whole setup, get 2 new turbos, mounts, piping, etc..for less then 6Kish?

 

[silverpsd_06]

Here is the prices for what i have

pt 106- 1600
4094r- 1200
precision 44mil gate- 400
precision 66mil gate-580ish
Fittings for water to turbo, atmosphere drain and supply- 150
I built most of my own feed and drain fittings and fit all of it in truck
The pipe was kinda pricey think i spent right around 350 on all the fittings and flanges/clamps ect. There is some minor stuff im missing for sure but right around that price tag it can be done.. The cheap route that mad diesel showed would be the way i would go about it if i was on a budget.

 

[Big Bore]

Going to a 38R style or 66mm turbo would not be a step back. With a turbo in front of the other.... the 66mm will spool like a 71 or a little larger. Therefore smaller is better, as long as you can gate around it once drive comes up and get the excess energy to the low pressure turbine.

Ideally I'd like to do any 62-66mm turbo, keep exhaust wheel and housing small with a 60mm+ gate. Feeding a 105 or better. Big exhaust wheel, big exhaust housing. 44mm gate. That would be for power.... make the low pressure smaller for mostly dd/towing... IE: 95mm or so. Same exhaust principles though.


Just my $.02....

Pardon me please if this is a hijack off your interest OP. Hopefully there's something relevant here.

Marty I've been considering a 38r/s480 combo for awhile. The s480 (s400SX-80 ETT) comes in several configurations from Forced Inductions. It seems to me that the 96mm turbine with 1.32 housing on a T6 is a winner, just wondering if there is any reason NOT to use a T6 that might make the T4 worth the extra cost, and any reason that particular configuration takes a back seat to the others. The $899 price tag on that turbo with a T6 is really appealing.

 

[silverpsd_06]

I'd say there wouldn't be a problem tarm I knew Marty mentioned to me awhile back that the t4 housings in the 480s had a tendency to crack that's why they went to a t4i housing.. Guessing your wanting a stupid fast spooling street setup?

 

[Big Bore]

I'd say there wouldn't be a problem tarm I knew Marty mentioned to me awhile back that the t4 housings in the 480s had a tendency to crack that's why they went to a t4i housing.. Guessing your wanting a stupid fast spooling street setup?

If that was in reply to me, yea fast spooling, or more accurate, very high altitude tow (9,000-11,000ft) so needs to be able to start spooling down low while keeping egt's in check.

 

[TyCorr]

Pardon me please if this is a hijack off your interest OP. Hopefully there's something relevant here.

Marty I've been considering a 38r/s480 combo for awhile. The s480 (s400SX-80 ETT) comes in several configurations from Forced Inductions. It seems to me that the 96mm turbine with 1.32 housing on a T6 is a winner, just wondering if there is any reason NOT to use a T6 that might make the T4 worth the extra cost, and any reason that particular configuration takes a back seat to the others. The $899 price tag on that turbo with a T6 is really appealing.

I'm gonna derail your derail. I thought you were doing some small compounds? Like a 4202 over the 38r?

I like your current plan better. It's about what I'm settled on.

 

[co04cobra]

Pardon me please if this is a hijack off your interest OP. Hopefully there's something relevant here.

Marty I've been considering a 38r/s480 combo for awhile. The s480 (s400SX-80 ETT) comes in several configurations from Forced Inductions. It seems to me that the 96mm turbine with 1.32 housing on a T6 is a winner, just wondering if there is any reason NOT to use a T6 that might make the T4 worth the extra cost, and any reason that particular configuration takes a back seat to the others. The $899 price tag on that turbo with a T6 is really appealing.

No problem with a derail. Like to hear and see all scenarios. The 38r/480 seems to be a proven setup, but hp limit prob. no more then 650?

 

[TyCorr]

No problem with a derail. Like to hear and see all scenarios. The 38r/480 seems to be a proven setup, but hp limit prob. no more then 650?

You're gonna need bigger injectors for that anyway oke:

I don't wanna cast any stones but 6+ on 300 w/200% nozzles? I thought the 200% nozzles would be the limiting factor?

If they make a s488 that would be able to move enough air volume for 650.

 

[Big Bore]

I'm gonna derail your derail. I thought you were doing some small compounds? Like a 4202 over the 38r?

I like your current plan better. It's about what I'm settled on.

I've had several different ideas. Including the dmax turbo and a 6.0 turbo. But the most practical for several reasons seems to be a compound setup, and I decided that with the possibility that the 4202 would be too small even up here, that I'd go with something more in the known range after reading several threads here over the last year or so and seeing what others have done. This thread came up while I was researching the s480 avenue.

 

[TyCorr]

I've had several different ideas. Including the dmax turbo and a 6.0 turbo. But the most practical for several reasons seems to be a compound setup, and I decided that with the possibility that the 4202 would be too small even up here, that I'd go with something more in the known range after reading several threads here over the last year or so and seeing what others have done. This thread came up while I was researching the s480 avenue.

I like people with different ideas! I have the itch to do some 'pounds too.

 

[co04cobra]

You're gonna need bigger injectors for that anyway oke:

I don't wanna cast any stones but 6+ on 300 w/200% nozzles? I thought the 200% nozzles would be the limiting factor?

If they make a s488 that would be able to move enough air volume for 650.

Yea I had stated in two other posts that If I went with a complete different setup I would be changing injectors. :thumbup:

 

[PowerstrokeJunkie]

Forced inductions makes a 488 that fits in the same 9.5" race cover but moves about 2,000cfm of air

 

[TARM]

200% has plenty of fuel to get you well into the 600s if you have the air. Its been done with basic 300/200 injectors and a well worn junk yard pull off gt4294.

 

[TyCorr]

200% has plenty of fuel to get you well into the 600s if you have the air. Its been done with basic 300/200 injectors and a well worn junk yard pull off gt4294.

Who? The big boys are making "only" 700s with 400/400s, twin pumps, and compounds. Big compounds! Giggle gas gets the 1k mark. Not to.downgrade all the other bs.that it takes. I've heard of injectors that size making numbers like that but I'm not really buying a lot of dyno #s. Especially since dynoing my own pile. I'll just say, I don't see a 100% nozzle making over 500hp without ridiculous amounts of pw.

I'll ask more directly: What's the limit, within reason, for a 200% nozzle? The nozzle only moves so much fuel right? Otherwise, guys wouldn't use 300 or 400% nozzles.

 

[co04cobra]

There really is no need to start this pissing match again. I have dynod time and time and time again on different setups much over 600+ with mine. I would drag race it but its a manual. I sled pull it.

I can tell you also that I have made over 500++ on 4 or 5 different trucks with only 238/100s. That number is very doable. Also, 4 or 5 different dynos.

The discussion to have is not the power. Its the useable powerband and getting it to the ground.

 

[TyCorr]

There really is no need to start this pissing match again. I have dynod time and time and time again on different setups much over 600+ with mine. I would drag race it but its a manual. I sled pull it.

I can tell you also that I have made over 500++ on 4 or 5 different trucks with only 238/100s. That number is very doable. Also, 4 or 5 different dynos.

The discussion to have is not the power. Its the useable powerband and getting it to the ground.

There are other people reading these threads. If some kid buys a rr , a larger single, and something with 200% nozzles and lays down a 550 hp run he's gonna be confused. That should make over 600 right? All I'm saying. Further down that road, why are 400/400s and BIG compounds only in the 7's?

Powerband is right. The best way to get a wide one is compounds.

 

[Big Bore]

Unlimited 400/200's will flow 255cc's @ 2.5ms/3000psi. A conservative 2.5HP per cc gives well over 600HP. That is completely doable if you have the air. At 3ms they will flow over 300cc. A good 250/200 should break 500 easily.

 

[Big Bore]

Further down that road, why are 400/400s and BIG compounds only in the 7's?

Those a fuel only numbers, start adding nitrous and those numbers go over 1000.

 

[co04cobra]

There are other people reading these threads. If some kid buys a rr , a larger single, and something with 200% nozzles and lays down a 550 hp run he's gonna be confused. That should make over 600 right? All I'm saying. Further down that road, why are 400/400s and BIG compounds only in the 7's?

Powerband is right. The best way to get a wide one is compounds.

I understand where you are coming from. With out good live tuning I would not expect the best numbers. So, if someone were to do that they shouldnt be disappointed. I think a lot of the guys running 400/400s are competition guys (pulling and racing) they dont usually dyno so you hear less about it. The 200% nozzle is much more common in DD truck.

I know Jason Lamberts truck powerstrokenstang is well into the 700s+ with his setup but its a dedicated puller. JMO

 

[TARM]

Sorry CoO4bra I never meant to get your thread side tracked on what is only a small point of your main subject. I will end it with this one post and say no more on the subject. But you know me its never going to just be a one line post ostwhore2:

I sincerely hope no one is really getting heated over such a silly thing. I hope that is not the case here. TyCorr it certainly was nothing personal, thats just not my way. I just want to try and keep info as accurate as possible. I am only attempting to add info that I know to be correct.

It is a FACT 200% have and will take a truck to 600 HP. There is no question or arguing about this. Its been done and not just some single freak. Its a proven combo. Will it do it with every engine in every config with any tuning HELL no. It takes a combination of parts to get power and even then there will be some variation. But there has been enough proof of 200% and medium size turbos (70-76mm) putting out 600HP to low mid 600s IMO its solid info people can rely on.

But lets not go mincing words what was claimed and what was said in hind sight to make any ones position stronger or weaker. This is not about can a stock engine live at these power levels or how long it can or what kind of other hard parts are needed etc. Not about will it do it with all tuning or this or that.

This is strictly about as I stated 200% enough fueling to make 600-650 HP with turbos in the gt42 range. It was called BS or at the very least asked to support it. "Put up or shut up" if you will.

One thing I have learned about posting on the net and rule I try to always follow: Never post up info you can not support. Short Bus took me to task on this years ago for one unsupported comment and it was a lesson well learned. IMO something all should take to heart as it makes for much more accurate info getting out there which helps us all.

There is everything from forum posts, dyno reports, track slips, even diesel mag articles has been written on it. I will go dig up at least some of this as I only have two off the top of my head.


Its the law of diminishing returns as we are running into the limitation of the 7.3 systems specifically the major one the HEUI but who doesn't know this. With the 7.3 that line these days seems to be somewhere in the middle of the 600s for something that is somewhat a straight up formula to success. After that it gets much harder with out of proportion increases for the gains they produce. I think 800 is that really magic fuel only where it takes everything being just right in the right combo to get there. After all how many times have we seen a 800HP fuel only 7.3. Is it doable? I think so. But what it takes to get you there is likely (do not know personally) EXTREME likely way over what 700 takes. And much more of a jump that 600-700.

As for direct proof which is the one I used in my first post as an example: VanderChevy was right @ 600 HP based on his MPH and truck weight in the 1/4 mile. He showed pictures of what the compressor wheel looked like after the run which was nothing more than a pull off JB pull off gt4294 1.15 housing 300/200 Casserly injectors with no extra fuel or oil side mods. Tuning by Cale. He then switched to a GTX4294 which sure as sh!t would jump the power up a good bit and happens to be the same turbo I am running along with 200% that have been well worked over.

It was actually 12k miles. Sorta not really on the live tuning. Cale sat in the truck to burn the chip but that was about it. No dyno but the track time calculator says I did hit my goal of 600hp. 7500# and ran a [email protected]. The last time I raced it I got [email protected] so I could have gotten deeper into the 12's if i had actually tried.

That would also be the truck that the article was done in Diesel Power and the front cover stated 600HP Ford. For you edification:

12-Second 1999.5 Ford Super Duty: A Budget-Built, 600hp, 7.3L Power Stroke

Come on now you know if its in print it must be true.oke: sorry a bit of tension breaker. LOL But really it was a solid 600HP setup.


If you just look at 200% injector flow bench data and compare it to what is being asked of 400% you can see there is enough fuel to easily get you into the 600s

Supported again by Bill@PHP

04-18-2012 10:26 AM
We will be resuming this later this summer. I've found that 300cc/200% will be more than adequate to put me at the fuel volume necessary to hit 600 HP. All I need is to decide on the turbo. I'm still thinking the S472 is the way I want to go, but a modified 4294 might also be an option if I can price one right.

The reason again for the larger injectors for many with street rigs if not most is so things can be done at lower tq levels ie higher rpms and they are not using the max flow capabilities of the 400% basically PW in the 2ms range.

As for compounds being a requirement. Compounds main benefit on the street is adding power under the curve. Sure it can and does add to the top end as you have the larger turbo but for numbers in the lower half of the 600s its under the curve. That power is there from a bit off idle all the way up which is distinctly different that a single power curve.

There there is Thuglike who dyno well over 600 on a set of 250cc/200% and a GT42

II 250/200 AD hybrids w/oil side mods
Gt42r
Big DIIC
Crower Rods
Mahle Pistons..coated
DI Cam
DI Uppipes
DI Headers
DP Tuner
IDM Mod
Built small block from DI..Coated and balanced
Hypermax rev kit
Modded heads
Termy oil
DI fuel system
Cooling Mist stage 2

640/1100 on fuel/ [email protected] on fuel


I believe Swamps has built a number of engines 600HP with 200% nozzles and one of their turbos. David would need to confirm this of course.

It seems Matt@gearhead agrees 200s puts out plenty of fuel for 600

But thanks for the advice, sounds like maybe i should stick with the 200% and keep tweaking to make power. Shouldnt be difficult with a 350/200 to break 550 should it?

600+ is possible very easily

Okay, thats what i had heard. Thanks Matt!

Another Diesel Power Article titled 21 Dyno-Proven Ford Power Combinations Key here is dyno proven. Not sure who was the technical source for the data but I know for most articles its many times coming from one of our site vendors. If you check it out 200% nozzle and 71mm range comp wheel turbo.


Right here from our owns site's Library 7.3 performance section "How to make 600 - 700 RWHP 7.3L"
The parameter of this thread was: "To a list of their dyno/race proven combination of parts and tunes to reach a good reliable 600 - 700 rwhp - 7.3L build."

Of the three two state 200% injectors and swamps states 300cc and nozzles based on application which means there is a choice my bet is 200% 400% and who knows what else as those David and his crew have done just about everything possible at one time or another.

There is a thread around here on one of the forums that list IIRC a couple more but I did not find it with a quick search and didn't feel like digging pointlessly.


I would say the minimum setup is a 70-71mm turbo, 250/200% injectors, HPOP: SPR-1/Stage I or any of the dual HPOP Swamps Gen3 etc, + supporting engine and trans mods/upgrades. I think the above data supports this.


Tycorr,

I do agree that if you put streetablity aside as far as a single turbo is concerned that with a larger turbo ( more lag) and 400% you could get the 600HP at a lower CP/TQ level with higher rpms which from the stand point of rods bending and block flexing is certainly a positive. No question by adding in compounds you get the best of both worlds or close to it no lag and great power all the way thru bottom to top. I was never in disagreement on what would be better/best from those standpoints. We are in agreement there.




To bring this back on track for the thread: (Sorry Co04cobra)

The issue is IMO with compounds comes the need for a built bottom end and not with forged rods. The fact that the compounds bring the power on right from the bottom end straight and thru to the top I think is the issue. That added stress. You are running boost and power much more than the slower boost building of the single setup. Yes I guess you could tune around it but then whats the point of the compounds then? It would kill all the fun. I doubt any of use could say no to standing on a compound setup. Just to much damn fun.

I really think if you have stock parts look for a 38R cheap someone is dumping or if you can get make a kit for a T4 something of similar size. A 366 would work well also. Then to keep money low look for a pull off gt47 like you got your gt4594. Jose can mod if for you if you need or want a wheel change and housings. Such as turn it into a 5518. Or if you find a cheap 5533 as I have seen a couple times a the smaller 4718 comp wheel thats more fittings to compounds IMO. The reason I mention the 38R is you likely will have the stock mount. Since your current turbo is a T6 you are likely going to need a T4 for any other HP turbo you run so that means another mount kit.

If you are building this stuff yourself or have a friend doing it then I guess its open to whatever as its just metal costs.

But a 366/38r/some other such turbo size as Marty has stated. Match that up with a GT47 or something of similar size. But IMO you should look at the comp map of the wheel you will be using. You want a map with broad islands at the lower PR ranges. On that put the largest housing you can unless possibly you end up with some GT55/S500 beast. Two gates would be ideal but one is mandatory. HP turbo gate>Intermediate pipe>Atmosphere. Most likely without a gate on the atmosphere boost will get away from you once shes fully lit.