Powermax why does it have troubles unless tuned::

[madpowerstroke]

I have been doing some serious research on why the powermax turbo needs some tuning and other times not. I have one tester out there I'm trying a theory on and will have another be end of the month. I got my hands on a powermax turbo that a guy sent me to see if I could get it running without and special tunes. He's has a 05 truck and said that it's laggy, and dead spots at 45-50 if he hits it. I told him sure send it to me and I'll see what I can do.
So I got the turbo and completely tore it down, measured everthing to see how it compairs to one of the stage 1. Well I found out alot of things, and also came up with a theory on the subject. The only differance between the two turbos is the turbine wheels, powermax 10 blade, and stage 1 13 blade, both same measurments.
So, here's the theory and I have talked it over with some of the tuners and they agreed that it could possibly be right. I have also talked to guys with 03-04 early trucks with the 10 stock turbo, and they have said I have no problems at all. Then I have talked to guys with 04-07 and they say that the powermax needs tuning or it won't work right. What I came up with and I'm not hating the powermax over turbos I build, and I'm not saying stage 1 is better, the powermax can flow more air than the stage 1 but needs to be tuned for it, it is just a theory. The 04-07 trucks run a 13 blade turbine wheel from factory, and the backpressure is a little higher because of it so the PMC uses a set ratio between air flow, boost and backpressure. Now you put a bigger turbo in that flows more air but has a 10 blade wheel( less backpressure ratio per volume of air) well the engines computer PMC doesn't like the ratio and is out of it operating range, so it does know how to figure the calulations, and that's why you need the tuning, where the 13 turbine blade wheel has a ratio that is within the range and can calulate what it needs to make engine run good.
This is a theory I could be wrong, and I'm trying to get the facts by putting a 13 tubine wheel in some powermaxs to see what happens.When I get the feedback I will post on this thread, to see if I was right or wrong.
I would like to open for discussion this theory and get everone's option onit. Makes you think about the way the PMC thinks in these trucks and may helpout with tuning and performance.
Like I said I have talked to a few tuners on this and they say that the PMC is always looking at the ratio and does use it for calulations for the way the engine runs.
I also know that I came off on a thread to look like a dush, and for that I'm sorry, I'm only trying to help 6.0 owners, to make their trucks run good if I can. I also have no problem helping vendors if I can, I work with JJ but I will helpout anyone I can. I know alittle about some things and none about others, so I'm always learning and sharing what I know to help out the 6.0 owners. Thanks

 

[Spindrift]

Actually...you appeared to be a douche. LOL Just kiddin'. Hope you get some good feedback on your next project. I'm running the PM with 190/75s and my tune needs to be balls on or the truck just doesn't run right. And since the truck is used almost exclusively for towing, I asked my tuner to concentrate solely on getting this one tune correct...which took a little doing on his part.

 

[Cutting-Edge Diesel]

What about the later strategys that don't use EBP?

 

[ODAWG714]

I for sure think the tuners can get it pretty much perfected on a live dyno. The 10blade will have less bp then a 13-14-15 blade turbine which will provide some less egt the down fall is the the perfection on tuning. Just my experience With different turbos

 

[faster6.0]

You mean... The 10 blade doesn't just whistle more???? LOL
Good research Adrian. Interested to see performance differences .

 

[chappy]

Sounds like a good theory to me. I know my truck took a couple tries from matt at gearhead to get it really good. A really aggressive vgt stradegy was the end winner for my truck . I'm on heavy 35' toyos and 20x12's though so it just made it that much laggier. its great now though even in the humidity with the srl+ . put it on a small tune though and it falls on its face.

 

[madpowerstroke]

What about the later strategys that don't use EBP?

Your right about the ebp but, the the PMC is still involved and must be getting the info somehow. I hope someone that knows the way the later pcm works without the ebp sensor can chime in. Like I said right now it's a theory, and do have guys that I have and will have be converting to 13 blade turbine, to see what happens. I just wanted to know why a 13 blade turbine requires no tuning and runs fine, tows fine, doesn't run out of power at top, and will work on stock factory tune without a problem. The running out of air at top shouldn't happen to a 10 blade turbine since that's where the advantage for less blades come into effect.
The powermax is a good turbo, it needs to get the tuning right to make it a great turbo.
Just food for thought, since both turbos have the exact measurments, and they both will run different in same truck with the same tune written for a stock turbo race tune. I just don't understand why, unless it's the PMC is doing it.
I'm a douch and did't even know how to spell it........I'm sure the spell part now is surpized with.......LOLLOL:shocked:LOL

 

[ODAWG714]

Your right about the ebp but, the the PMC is still involved and must be getting the info somehow. I hope someone that knows the way the later pcm works without the ebp sensor can chime in. Like I said right now it's a theory, and do have guys that I have and will have be converting to 13 blade turbine, to see what happens. I just wanted to know why a 13 blade turbine requires no tuning and runs fine, tows fine, doesn't run out of power at top, and will work on stock factory tune without a problem. The running out of air at top shouldn't happen to a 10 blade turbine since that's where the advantage for less blades come into effect.
The powermax is a good turbo, it needs to get the tuning right to make it a great turbo.
Just food for thought, since both turbos have the exact measurments, and they both will run different in same truck with the same tune written for a stock turbo race tune. I just don't understand why, unless it's the PMC is doing it.
I'm a douch and did't even know how to spell it........I'm sure the spell part now is surpized with.......LOLLOL:shocked:LOL

Seems like the ebp is Measuring more exhaust flow causing the funky 10 blade issues causing the turbo vanes to act different. Who knows

 

[Cutting-Edge Diesel]

Now I'm not a tuning expert so take this with a grain of salt.

When I was talking to a tuner about vgt compounds. Vgt duty cycle was a big topic. He said we could just use a latter strategy that doesn't use EBP for the vgt and he can just command the veins to do whatever we wanted. It sounded like it was completely controlled by the tune.

We have a 07 work truck with vxcf5 strategy (dont know how this one contols the vgt) runs just fine with the pmax and stock injectors. Just like stock maybe a tad slower even tho it weighs 10k and pulls 20+k often. The tunes were never changed when the turbo was added

 

[madpowerstroke]

Now I'm not a tuning expert so take this with a grain of salt.

When I was talking to a tuner about vgt compounds. Vgt duty cycle was a big topic. He said we could just use a latter strategy that doesn't use EBP for the vgt and he can just command the veins to do whatever we wanted. It sounded like it was completely controlled by the tune.

We have a 07 work truck with vxcf5 strategy (dont know how this one contols the vgt) runs just fine with the pmax and stock injectors. Just like stock maybe a tad slower even tho it weighs 10k and pulls 20+k often. The tunes were never changed when the turbo was added

I know that a tuner can turn the pmc learning feature off, and taht would allow commaned vgt duty cycles. As far as the 07 you that interesting, maybe there is something with the strategy codes being used. You have any ideas of why the 10 vs 13 turbine blades run different.

 

[Cutting-Edge Diesel]

no, no ideas here. just trying to provide information that pertains to the topic lol

 

[madpowerstroke]

no, no ideas here. just trying to provide information that pertains to the topic lol

I wasn't getting on you, I welcome any info, there's gotta be a reason for it. The theory I have is the only thing I could come up with.

 

[Gearhead]

Have you compared the actual a/r of the turbine housing vs the average voltage into the vgt solonoid?

 

[madpowerstroke]

No, I did mearsure the tubine housings both .90a/r. The vgt actuators are both identical, and same part numbers. The cam profile for the vgt is the same,compressor housings a/r .58 same, even same size compressor wheel. Would differance in voltage indicate a different ecm programing? Glad to see your input on this. Thanks

 

[HeavyAssault]

IIRC the EBP readings are inferred in the later trucks. Meaning there is a static table that the PCM uses for calculations versus a dynamic reading.

As before tuning a 6.0 is key to maximizing performance.

 

[Gearhead]

No, I did mearsure the tubine housings both .90a/r. The vgt actuators are both identical, and same part numbers. The cam profile for the vgt is the same,compressor housings a/r .58 same, even same size compressor wheel. Would differance in voltage indicate a different ecm programing? Glad to see your input on this. Thanks

i was just wondering if the powermax requires more duty cycle (or averave dc voltage) for the same ar or is it just an inefficient turbine wheel profile?

 

[hawgdoctor]

i was just wondering if the powermax requires more duty cycle (or averave dc voltage) for the same ar or is it just an inefficient turbine wheel profile?

The back halves of an 03, and a powermax are identical. Same size ar, turbine, etc... I don't know why they run so much differently. I thought i was gonna have the "dead spot" on mine with an 03, but it runs its ass off without a hiccup. I also have an older flash vxcf4. I think that does make a difference doesn't it?
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[madpowerstroke]

I more info I get, seems that the theory I have is half right. In other words the pmc is the problem but only if it's running ceritain flashes. So if someone gets the older or certain flashes than in theory the powermax should run fine. With the other flashes I do think the powermax needs more VGT duty cycle, along with the other adjustments in backpressure numbers to the most out of the turbo.

 

[Gearhead]

You can command whatever you want on the inferred EBP strategies and the turbo does it. The only problem is eventually you start working backwards and hitting the surge line of the compressor map.

 

[InnovativeDiesel]

Like Matt said, the reason why some trucks respond better than others is the actual strategy(PCM code) of the truck. Some codes are more aggressive than others. Some years respond better than others. 03-04 trucks will respond well to a Powermax, since the design is very similar, although you won't see the overall gains in power due to this reason.

Lastly, you'll simply find certain turbo's respond better in general. This is related to the VVT solenoid, oil pressure, etc. A combination of a few variances can make a noticable difference.