Pushrod Debate from Beans71086's Thread

White_monster

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I'm running stock pushrods on the drivers bank and stage 1 elite pushrods on the passenger side. It's been this way for a while with no issues. The reason for bigger or stronger pushrods is to combat pushrod deflection during use. With a stock valve spring the pushrod will deflect some and with a stiffer spring the pushrod will deflect more. The more deflection there is the less the valve will open. Are they needed necessarily? No. To get full performance I say yes. The draw back is you move the weak link to the next part in the system.
 

Johnny77Mutt

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I baby my truck 90% of the time and romp on it every now and then and I've bent two pushrods so far. The first time it was found when doing head studs and gaskets, I had no noise at all. The 2nd time the noise was very noticeable. The 2nd one was bent around 20k miles after the studs, about 5 months later.
 

jdgleason

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I feel like there's some people that like to take the cheap route, and then there's people that don't cut corners. I can't believe that this is as big of a debate as it is... Stronger is going to be better regardless... They're cheap...

There really isn't a lot of call or reasoning in testing exactly where a stock pushrod would let go. Just doesn't make sense. Even if there was testing, there are too many variables, and I really doubt anyone will ever be able to point a finger at an exact reason, or particular trend that causes stock pushrods to bend.

For the headache and guessing... I'll spend the extra couple hundred bucks so that I don't think about it again.
 

Dzchey21

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I'm running stock pushrods on the drivers bank and stage 1 elite pushrods on the passenger side. It's been this way for a while with no issues. The reason for bigger or stronger pushrods is to combat pushrod deflection during use. With a stock valve spring the pushrod will deflect some and with a stiffer spring the pushrod will deflect more. The more deflection there is the less the valve will open. Are they needed necessarily? No. To get full performance I say yes. The draw back is you move the weak link to the next part in the system.

Well put that's the whole reason most have developed them. Plus they are cheap while doing springs.


Your not so much seeing hype as you are seeing the 6.4 evolve... We didn't know these things a year ago. sh1t changes almost weekly now.
 

Mixedbreed

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I know this isn't the same thing but, when i rebuilt the top end of my 6.0 i replaced EVERYTHING but the HPOP. everything went well but then it went out last Tuesday. IF i would have replaced it back in may (i just ran out of cash to be honest) i would have saved myself about 500$ in labor and a few days down time.

like i said, not the same thing but if you are in there and you have the cash, why not upgrade them? i know i learned a lesson.
 

Smokyred

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You own a 6.0.... Nothing to be afraid of, of a 6.4....



I want to see results.... All this hype of pushrods came about back when elite came out with theres. Talk to Jared at RCD and ask how many cam'd/valvesprings they have installed without push rods, and how many of these trucks are high revving. Not trying to argue but there arent enough people running springs without rods to know. You guys probably know way more than I do, but you cant just say JUST DO IT and not have hard evidence. I beat on my truck pretty hard and have not had one problem in 10-15k miles. Just like the whole ported rails thing. Everyone said just do it, and look how many people, including me, have surging issues.

Reread my first post in this thread, you obviously missed it. This isn't new, it's been going on since before the 6.4. Go search the 7.3 forums on PSN for bent pushrod threads, you'll find people floated valves so they put in springs. Then they proceeded to horseshoe stock pushrods left and right while guys like me who had springs and pushrods didn't have valve float or pushrod issues anymore. They weren't bending pushrods because of float anymore, they were bending them because they were exceeding the design limit of the pushrods, both in RPM and in spring rate.

Strokin6.4, the analogy you're probably looking for would be building a Stage 5 Elite tyranny but running a stock input shaft because you're worried about twisting the output shaft.

Plain and simple weak links have no place in performance engines, the valvetrain is a system and the parts must be equally matched. When one part is left purposefully weak it WILL fail, it's just a matter of time.

Dave
 

madman1234509

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I feel like there's some people that like to take the cheap route, and then there's people that don't cut corners. I can't believe that this is as big of a debate as it is... Stronger is going to be better regardless... They're cheap...

For the headache and guessing... I'll spend the extra couple hundred bucks so that I don't think about it again.

No offense but, I would expect the person selling the product to say this. At the time I did all of this I was going to buy push rods, but after talking to Jared at RCD and him telling me they have put their cam and springs in quite a few trucks with no issues without push rods I figured Id go for it.... But the fact of the matter is there are plenty of people running around with stock pushrods in high HP trucks with no issues. And to say its a must isnt exactly true. To think just because you put valve springs in your truck you have to have push rods, isnt exactly true. The push rod issues that happen dont seems to be a common reoccurence like head gasket or egr failure once a truck has a high HP tune in it.


Are the cheap? Sure ..... Are they absolutely needed? Doubtful.... Like stated above, strengthen the push rods and move the possible weak link to the next spot. So say you have no valve springs and are throwing these stronger push rods in... You havent eliminated the possible valve float from high boost/bp, push rod doesnt bend like the stockers, so what happens when the valve contacts the piston? There are more variables then yep, better, cheap, must be good, gotta put them in....
 
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Scottbigred

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Hes not saying anything about doing rods without springs. If you have the motor opened up then why not throw in a set of pushrods designed to work with the springs. For the few hundred they cost why not. You say you have no issues, other people have said they didn't have any issues either until they opened the motor up and realized they weren't bent to the point of noticing an issue but they were in fact bent. Why cheap on something so cheap. No ones saying put just push rods in. They are saying if you can spend the 5-600 bucks on springs why cheap out on a set of 2-300 dollar pushrods?

If your set up is working great for you then thats fine but to sit here and tell people they are pointless isn't right. I've got pushrods and springs. Did i need either for where i am with my build?? Not necessarily. Do i feel better with them both in there? Yes. It took no extra time to swap pushrods. They were out anyway when the heads were pulled. So why not. I spent all that money for everything else I just couldn't see going cheap on something like that. Now i don't have to wonder if i'll float a valve or bend a rod. I know i won't.

Thats just my opinion on it. Are you right that in some cases they might not be 100% needed? Sure. But at this point with your posts it seems that your just getting more and more defensive about your setup because not everyone agrees with you. If your happy with it and feel comfortable with it then thats what matters.
 

TonyG

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I'm running stock pushrods on the drivers bank and stage 1 elite pushrods on the passenger side. It's been this way for a while with no issues. The reason for bigger or stronger pushrods is to combat pushrod deflection during use. With a stock valve spring the pushrod will deflect some and with a stiffer spring the pushrod will deflect more. The more deflection there is the less the valve will open. Are they needed necessarily? No. To get full performance I say yes. The draw back is you move the weak link to the next part in the system.

Very true! The only technical answer in this whole tread instead of he said she saids..... If ANY one is bending stock ones then why would you not upgrade them when you do valve springs? Adding spring seat pressure does what to the push rods? Applys more pressure under lob lift.... Think about that.... Think about what it takes to get to the push rods if that's the soul purpose yours diving into the motor.... Seems like a no brainer to me
 

Erikclaw

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This debate is retarded. For the amount of money that the upgraded PR are, why wouldn't you upgrade?

:whs: That is what I was thinking reading some of the responses. Think it is a waist, don't do it. there will always be some that think stuff is unnecessary and others that think differently. When were wg on stock trucks recommended, and who the hell would ever say that a head stud is a good upgrade?
 

Powerstroked162

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No offense but, I would expect the person selling the product to say this. At the time I did all of this I was going to buy push rods, but after talking to Jared at RCD and him telling me they have put their cam and springs in quite a few trucks with no issues without push rods I figured Id go for it.... But the fact of the matter is there are plenty of people running around with stock pushrods in high HP trucks with no issues. And to say its a must isnt exactly true. To think just because you put valve springs in your truck you have to have push rods, isnt exactly true. The push rod issues that happen dont seems to be a common reoccurence like head gasket or egr failure once a truck has a high HP tune in it.


Are the cheap? Sure ..... Are they absolutely needed? Doubtful.... Like stated above, strengthen the push rods and move the possible weak link to the next spot. So say you have no valve springs and are throwing these stronger push rods in... You havent eliminated the possible valve float from high boost/bp, push rod doesnt bend like the stockers, so what happens when the valve contacts the piston? There are more variables then yep, better, cheap, must be good, gotta put them in....


LOL



Forcefed and Shane nailed this thread. Canada FTW!
 

Dustball8504

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I have 138,200 miles on my truck. It has been tuned for 104,000 miles with the same tuning since day one. Only thing that has changed has been tweaks made to improve the tuning (including back pressure). I run my truck hard as well. I have over 100 track passes on this motor and it has been setup with Elite's 71mm atmosphere for months now. I've seen as high as 57 psi of boost and I would assume 70ish or so psi of back pressure. I haven't ran into any valvetrain issues. If it was the tuning, it would be a common occurrence (and I more than likely would have experienced some issues with the abuse I put my truck through). This isn't the only truck running our tuning that sees abuse on a regular basis and plenty have a lot more mileage.

I'm not knocking the Spartan tuning, just sharing what my experiences are on my truck. EBP is an issue with it, even with my 71mm. My 275 tune at WOT is lower 40s for boost and mid 80s for ebp, not the issue with IDP Xrace or Gearhead Race. I'm glad you've had luck with yours, this truck on the other hand has been tuned for 40k and bent two.

I'd like to know how many trucks have bent pushrods and don't even know it because this truck still ran 12.9s and 12.8s on it and had no idling issues whatsoever.
 

jdgleason

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No offense but, I would expect the person selling the product to say this. At the time I did all of this I was going to buy push rods, but after talking to Jared at RCD and him telling me they have put their cam and springs in quite a few trucks with no issues without push rods I figured Id go for it.... But the fact of the matter is there are plenty of people running around with stock pushrods in high HP trucks with no issues. And to say its a must isnt exactly true. To think just because you put valve springs in your truck you have to have push rods, isnt exactly true. The push rod issues that happen dont seems to be a common reoccurence like head gasket or egr failure once a truck has a high HP tune in it.


Are the cheap? Sure ..... Are they absolutely needed? Doubtful.... Like stated above, strengthen the push rods and move the possible weak link to the next spot. So say you have no valve springs and are throwing these stronger push rods in... You havent eliminated the possible valve float from high boost/bp, push rod doesnt bend like the stockers, so what happens when the valve contacts the piston? There are more variables then yep, better, cheap, must be good, gotta put them in....

If you add a stiffer spring you are asking more than the stock pushrod was designed for, correct? More seat pressure Adds more stress to the pushrods. Then why not add something stronger?


All I'm trying to point out is that logically, it makes sense.
 

Smokyred

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If you add a stiffer spring you are asking more than the stock pushrod was designed for, correct? More seat pressure Adds more stress to the pushrods. Then why not add something stronger?


All I'm trying to point out is that logically, it makes sense.

I was trying to point that out as well, which is probably why he stopped replying to my posts.

Not everyone has built performance engines like some of us on here, so they don't understand preventative parts replacement as compared to replacing parts after you break it. But then again, their repetitive broke truck threads help others learn, lol.

Dave
 

Fast-6.0

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I would like to make a few comments based on Madman's thoughts and use his truck as reference.

First off, I totally agree with Madman that items for these trucks can be deemed necessary when they aren't. Many of the products I designed were meant for a certain requirement (high rpm, fuel economy, etc. etc.) then someone will comment that said product helped in some way. Next thing you know many people are saying its a good idea or a requirement, even though I never designed the product to help in the area they are recommending. Make sense?

As far as Madman's stance on pushrods, my first question is, what section are we in? 6.4 Aftermarket. This is a performance section. Not for the stock guys. The guys in this section are looking for performance upgrades, if that be to the headlights or the engine or trans.

A heavy duty pushrod can and will deliver performance gains. Horsepower and Torque. Is it required, if performance is your goal, then yes they are required. Madman's truck is a perfect example, the funny thing is his truck would benefit from pushrods more than Beans. Let me give you why I say this.

I know I have talked about this before but I don't remember to what detail. I have been involved in quite a few engine programs that ran under certain restrictions. These restrictions were to even the playing field, to keep the budget under control. Sometimes the horsepower difference from the leader to the loser may have been 15hp or less. We spent days searching for a couple of horsepower. I know that in the diesel world right now with tuners that add 300hp, that a 2hp gain isn't important but it all adds up.

We had an engine that was running mid pack and could not run with the leader. We had maximized just about everything we could. Then we decided to run a larger pushrod. Just changing the pushrods gained us 20hp. That's huge! Sure on a chassis dyno and compared to a 310 tune there is no comparison but with performance as your goal, I will always take extra power.

Now why did we gain horsepower with a pushrod change. Easy, deflection of the pushrod. The valve lift is determined by the camshaft. Power is determined by how high and how long, and when the valves are opened. With the pushrods deflecting we lost lift and duration of valve opening and thus we had left power on the table. Once we went to pushrods that deflected less then our power came up.

Let's apply this to the argument at hand. We have an engine that has been tweaked to deliver 300-400hp more horsepower than designed. The exhaust pressures are substantially higher. That means the exhaust pushrods now have to try and open the valves under a much greater restriction of high backpressure than originally designed to do. The lifter starts to move and the pushrods try to open the valves. The valves don't want to open due to high bp and so the pushrod starts to deflect. Eventually the deflecting pushrod overcomes the requirement to open the valves and now the valves open and exhaust flows. Unfortunately it took 5 degrees of camshaft duration and .030" of valve lift before this occured. That sucks! We no longer have the exhaust flow that the truck was designed for. Power was left on the table.

Now we add valvesprings to combat the high bp the motor sees. The pushrods was already in a limited capacity and now we are asking it to open the valve with even more added pressure. What's it going to do? Deflect even more. So effectively our camshaft keeps getting smaller and thus airflow keeps decreasing.

Now we add our larger cam (This is Madmans motor). The cam lifts the valves even higher and holds them open even longer. The higher lift brings the valvesprings into a higher pressure. So not only are our stock pushrods fighting more backpressure than they were designed for, they are fighting more spring pressure than they were designed for, and by adding the cam we have now asked them to combat a valvespring at even higher pressure. Can they do it? NO. What happens is they deflect even more.

All that work to add the camshaft, but without a proper pushrod our valve lift, valve timing, and valve opening duration are not what the cam was designed to do. We are not getting what we paid for, the cam cannot deliver because we have skimped on required components.

So are Pushrods needed? Depends on your goal. If the goal is performance, yes! Madmans goal is performance, that's why he has an RCD cam, but he left power on the table by skimping on pushrods. Will he feel the power gain if he changes them, most likely not. Will his engine run fine, sure. But on an engine dyno you would see the gain. I know this because I have witnessed it many times. Do you want to run mid pack? Or do you want to be the leader?

Madman (sorry don't know your real name), I am not attacking you but you have opened your comments to criticism.
 

Jeff@Spartan

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I'm not knocking the Spartan tuning, just sharing what my experiences are on my truck. EBP is an issue with it, even with my 71mm. My 275 tune at WOT is lower 40s for boost and mid 80s for ebp, not the issue with IDP Xrace or Gearhead Race. I'm glad you've had luck with yours, this truck on the other hand has been tuned for 40k and bent two.

I'd like to know how many trucks have bent pushrods and don't even know it because this truck still ran 12.9s and 12.8s on it and had no idling issues whatsoever.

Low to mid 80's on the DashDAQ is 66-70 psi of actual back pressure. That's not high in my book with the factory turbo setup.
 

smokinstroker

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