Timing Discussion

JD3020

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I've been meaning to start this post since i got Minotaur. SOI is the one thing that really worries me as there isn't a good way to gauge timing/CP without having access to some high dollar tools. I'm just looking for some thoughts on what you guys, both the pro tuners and hobby tuners like myself, feel is a good base for a timing table and what some safe limits are. Not looking for trade secrets, i'd just like a better idea of what to do with SOI without windowing blocks trying to figure it out.

I'll post some screenshots of my current timing tables tomorrow if i get time to give you guys an idea of how my current tunes are, which i imagine will make some of you laugh. For now i've basically been taking the stock table and adding a few degrees and seeing how it does. I feel like i'm leaving a lot on the table with conservative timing, but i'm afraid to start pushing it and make things go boom.
 

CurtisF

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I struggled with the exact same thing for a loooooooooooooooong time. Thing is I absolutely had to keep timing and fueling conservative, especially in the lower RPM range.

The issue I always struggled with was idle quality. I kept jacking with all the timing tables, but really getting nowhere. Then I found a shortcut thanks to someone else.....

Leave your timing tables stock. Then focus on the Start Of Injection Delay table. Use that table to tweak your timing. On my truck I lowered it a bit, especially at idle. You'll definitely want to lower it some because of the larger nozzles. At higher ICP you can bump it up a little if you feel you're missing some power. Just make sure your ICP table doesn't ramp up too quickly, otherwise you'll have an overly sensitive pedal feel, and a clatterbox engine that feels like it wants to jump out from under the hood. For starters, my ICP table ramps up only slightly quicker than stock.

Try that and see how it works.
 

2000wa250

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Very interested to see where this thread goes. I've messed with my base soi table a bit, but generally by % across the board. When it starts sounding like ass I backed it down a bit. Crude but seems to work. I've made a few tweaks though.

Curtis, I completely agree on the offset, however I chose to use it as the final bit of tweaking. Basically get the base table within acceptable limits, for me on the conservative side, and then start making individual and localized tweaks to the offset to refine things more. Offset also is the easiest way I've found for curing spool up problems. If it feels like you're flooding the turbo, pull offset back a bit, and the opposite if you feel like you need a bit more fuel. egts can be controlled in a similar way.

Not to derail, but Curtis I would be very interested in hearing more about your ICP maps. I'm having some strange ICP issues and starting to wonder if mine ramps up too much too fast.

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CurtisF

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Very interested to see where this thread goes. I've messed with my base soi table a bit, but generally by % across the board. When it starts sounding like ass I backed it down a bit. Crude but seems to work. I've made a few tweaks though.

Curtis, I completely agree on the offset, however I chose to use it as the final bit of tweaking. Basically get the base table within acceptable limits, for me on the conservative side, and then start making individual and localized tweaks to the offset to refine things more. Offset also is the easiest way I've found for curing spool up problems. If it feels like you're flooding the turbo, pull offset back a bit, and the opposite if you feel like you need a bit more fuel. egts can be controlled in a similar way.
For sure everyone has their way of tweaking. Mine isn't probably the best way, but it works on my truck and makes my life 100% easier. The rest of the timing tables I just smoothed out a bit, but overlay them to a stock calibration will show they aren't much different.

Not to derail, but Curtis I would be very interested in hearing more about your ICP maps. I'm having some strange ICP issues and starting to wonder if mine ramps up too much too fast.
I tweaked the ICP to ramp up only slightly quicker than stock across the board. It's just enough to take away a bit of sluggishness that I get if I use the stock ICP map.

What I found if I ramp up ICP too quickly is that part throttle cruising you start to hear a choppy crunchy sound out of the motor. Ramp it up really really really quick and the motor will shake going down the highway.

With my current tunes here is what I see when monitoring with AE.... when accelerating normally, my PW actually doesn't move hardly at all. Instead..... as RPM's climb, so does ICP.

If my ICP ramps up too quickly, I notice that as I accelerate normally, my PW will actually fall off quite a bit as ICP climbs. That's when it gets choppy.

If my ICP ramps up too slowly, the PW climbs quickly at lower RPM, then slowly starts to fall off as RPM's continue to rise. That's when the truck accelerates sluggish and feels unresponsive off the line, and I get too much smoke.

Hope that makes sense.
 

JD3020

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I'll definitely try what you said on the timing. Really looking to drop EGT's a little as it gets hot with a 250/2's, stock turbo, and no intercooler when towing on the highway. Currently EGT's peak around 1400* on hills but i may add a few degrees to drop them some more.


And i know what you're talking about with the ICP vs. PW. I have a huge battle with it as i'm running a stock 15* HPOP with 140k miles. I have to be super careful to keep PW tamed back so the pump can keep up. My main tune runs low PW but can maintain 2500-3000psi at 50%.


Some days i wonder why i even run a set-up as screwed up as mine in my worktruck. LOL
 

JD3020

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Heres some shots of my main tune, this is the tune my truck spends 99.9% of its time in. Honestly i'd have no issue flashing this tune onto the PCM and running it. Crazy thing is this tune has remained relatively unchanged since i made it last summer, which was one of the first tunes i made. Its built off a stock VCAB0_02 tune(TDE1, 97 auto 7.3).

pw_zps8a637f84.jpg


icp_zps3840f67d.jpg


soi_zpsf64e9149.jpg



timingadder_zpsa445de5c.jpg
 

2000wa250

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Two things I see right off the bat. The adder table (eot vs rpm) isn't the one I am talking about, and I'm pretty sure its not the one that Curtis is referencing. The one we are talking about is the soi offset, which is measured in ms. We're talking changes in the tenths and hundredths of milliseconds. Personally I haven't really touched the eot vs rpm timing ADDER simply because I don't see a logical point in messing with it. The entire point, in my understanding, of that table is to account for changes in oil viscosity as temps change. IMO I would trust that the engineers at ford put a HELL of a lot more research into the physics regarding the oil, and since we're all generally running oil with the same physical properties that they calculated this map with, I see no reason to mess with it. Possibly adjust by 1-5% across the board, but this would simply be to account for the adjustment to the main table to account for larger nozzles and overall faster injection events with performance injectors.

Here's my thoughts regarding your egt issues and the base soi timing table you posted.

1 - I would try to smooth out that map a bit. Seems to have some serious spikes in it. Not saying you have to or its dangerous, but the way I look at it, consistency is going to equate to reliability when it comes to timing. I think of it this way, if you slowly increase pressure and stress on a given material, it is going to take longer, and potentially more force, to yield. Where as, if you apply a sudden jolt of change in force, things tend to yield and wear faster.

2- the valley you have at 2200 rpm (the purple area) is going to cause your egts to skyrocket. Depending on your offset and adders, you're calling for the injection event to start near or at TDC, which means the burn is going to bleed a lot of heat into the exhaust. I would bet that if you highlighted the entire area that is purple, and bring it up a few degrees, say to the lighter shade of blue, and then smooth out around it, you will see your egts drop drastically. Personally if it was my truck and my files, I would not drop timing at 2200rpm below where it is at 1400rpm.

When I get a chance here later, I'll throw up some screen shots of my daily tune and show you what I mean.

Reasoning behind this is as follows: when you are trying to spool the turbo, heat is good. Heat=force to drive the turbine wheel. Once you get up above 2000 rpm your turbo should be spooled, so now the objective is to control egts and turn that heat into power/downward force on the pistons vs lateral (for sake of a better term) power acting on the turbine. In my head, and from those whose brain I have picked, once you're up to 20-2200 rpm, things are moving fast enough that the risk of installing windows 7.3 is minimal.

One last thing for now, how's your idle SOUND? is it a purr, or does it have a bit of a distinct and defined sound, almost like you can hear individual cylinders firing? Reason I ask is the spike you have in your base soi table in the left side corner at low MFD and low rpm.....in my head that would cause issues trying to nail down a good and consistent idle, also could give a decent amount of vibration.

Also, if I'm reading your map correctly, I'm going to assume that it gets really hot really fast if you go WOT under 2000 rpm? Turbo probably is a bit laggy, and truck takes a second to respond?

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JD3020

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Gotcha, everything you said makes sense. I watched my pyro yesterday when i was towing, and i noticed at one point that as i rolled into the throttle at speed EGT's would rise, then if i got in it harder they'd start to drop, but that also brought along smoke. I chocked it up to maybe excess fuel cooling down the combustion but now that i look at the timing table i think i've got an idea of what was going on. I was basically going through that valley and had reduced timing, then as RPM's/MFD climbed timing started to advance.

Idle isn't all that smooth, and at times it can fluctuate a decent bit. Then other times it idles fairly smooth. And yes it acts how you described it below 2k*.
 

2000wa250

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OK, so now that I am on my laptop looking at my files....holy ****. Our timing tables are almost complete opposites..... Not sure what that means at all though.

SOI Base table

BaseSOItable_zps69bac248.jpg


and here is my ICP desired table

ICPPSIDesired_zps0082eddd.jpg


Curtis, I hope you chime in tonight.... If anyone looking at this sees anything amiss with either of these tables, it would be wonderful to know.

One question for Curtis, or anyone for that matter. On the Duty Cycle table, what exactly are the numbers for regulator flow referencing? I've been having some ICP issues that are either a result of tuning, a sticking IPR, or low pressure oil not keeping up with the demand presented by twin pumps....

here is the map I am currently running for IPR Duty Cycle

IPRDutyCycle_zpsa76c2201.jpg
 

JD3020

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Hmm, yeah our tables are definitely different! I'm gonna make another version of my tune, but with a SOI table similar to yours so i can compare them.

As for the regulator flow the way i've understood it is by how much oil is being passed through the IPR. 20 being fully open(low DC%), and 0 being fully closed(high DC%).
 

2000wa250

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As far as the stock table, its not that bad. However, if you take a stock table and multiply it across the board by a given number (easiest way to increase or decrease a map by a %) you are going to enhance any differences. Remember when you multiply it by say 1.15 to increase the map by 15%, the differences will be larger by that same factor. That's where going back through and smoothing everything out by hand comes into play. As far as why the stock map looks the way it does, I couldnt tell ya. All I know is that too little timing will create a slow, unresponsive, smokey, hot, turd. We all know that too much timing is liable to land a rod in the hood of that ricer you are trying to pass.

Heres my thoughts on you BASE SOI map.

SD3020Timingtable_zpsd24561f1.jpg


While I'm sure it runs well enough, I would bet that you could decrease temps, increase power/responsiveness, and probably have a better running truck if you make some changes to it. Oh, and from personal experience, if you are seeing ANY lack of power or strange characteristics when your EOT comes into the operating range, thats when you go back to that timing adder (EOT vs RPM) and bring it closer to 0 if not set at 0 in the range where you are experiencing the issues.

I guess you could say I follow along the same train of thought as Charles. The less CRAP adding, modifying, or otherwise effing with my BASE tables, the better. In my experience, SIMPLE is reliable is SAFE is enjoyable!
 

2000wa250

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Hmm, yeah our tables are definitely different! I'm gonna make another version of my tune, but with a SOI table similar to yours so i can compare them.

As for the regulator flow the way i've understood it is by how much oil is being passed through the IPR. 20 being fully open(low DC%), and 0 being fully closed(high DC%).

That is what makes sense to me, however then what is the point of having that effect DC.... it would be a biproduct or result of DC not a factor in it....

Is the DC table worth ****? Or is it simply there to keep the PCM from banging its head against a wall and throwing a code... May have to do some experimenting and see if I can figure out if this map changes ANYTHING or whether it should just be set where it is stock and left alone.
 

JD3020

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IIRC i did some tweaking with it last fall after talking with Dan K(dieselboy) as my truck obviously requires high DC. What i recall finding out was that the DC table was acting as a sort of limiter, and was keeping DC/ICP low even though i was calling for 3-3200psi. So i worked with that table some and brought it up a bit to where i was starting to see ICP and DC where i expected it. That was the last i ever touched it, and i never really gathered exactly how it and the ICP table work together. I still get ICP codes though. LOL Definitely interested in what others have to say about it.


And i'm currently making a copy of my tune with a SOI table like yours that i'll try out tomorrow. Times like now i wish i had a Hydra or something other than a damn TS that i have to re-burn everytime i want to make tweaks. :blah:
 

2000wa250

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two TS chips my friend....makes life SOOO easy. Burn one, take it out the the truck, pull chip off PCM, install freshly burnt chip and hook it up to installed switch and away you go. Even better, if your new files sound, act, or generally are ****, its as simple as turn the truck off wherever you are and swap the chips again. Makes it nice too because I can try 6 different versions of tunes without worrying about them running like **** and possibly damaging my truck before I can get home to burn the known good ones. Spare chip rides in the truck at all times with previous versions of tunes so that in the event that I notice something when I'm driving, I can pull over and go back to previous known good versions without needing a burner, laptop, or any tools.

Another thing I would try with your SOI table is to take the stock table in the value format, highlight the entire table, and use the + button to bring it up until the lower left corner value (the one you have highlighted in your screenshot) is at 3 degrees. That would put your max base timing at 13 degrees which is still relatively conservative, yet it would also keep the shape of the stock table. I'd do that before trying to recreate my table. Wont be MUCH different from the file you are currently running which you said you would have no issues burning onto the PCM and running 24/7, but without the drastic differences and peaks and valleys that your current map has. Then you can just play with it using the same method to bring it up or down until you like it. Bring it up little by little until you hit a spot where you dont like how it sounds or how touchy the throttle is or feel uncomfortable with the max value you are calling for, then bring it back down one notch.

Best advice I was ever given when it comes to tuning is change one thing at a time, little by little, until you get to a point where you feel uncomfortable with it, then back it down one notch. Applies to all maps. When I first started first thing I did was modify the base SOI file a little bit (to account for the speed of hybrid injectors) then the SOI offset until I was happy with EGT's vs Spool up, then moved on to PW (obviously I cut PW in approximately half on them since I was tuning for 250/200 hybrids). Way I see it, 100% nozzles drop PW to approximately 75% of stock, 200% nozzles to approximately 50% of stock tuning. By no means did it stay there, but right off the bat that is what I did. Then messed with timing to get that to where I liked it, then moved on to fuel delivery (ICP and PW).

Its a process. Easy metaphor for me is think of it like carving a statue. You start with a giant block of whatever material you are using and you get a general shape which you refine more and more until you have something highly detailed. I think what scares a lot of people from doing their own tuning is they try to worry about the minute finishing details first, or they try to get every map perfect.

Good luck with your revisions. I may be playing with mine a bit tonight as well, but right now I am pretty happy with them other than some minor issues which I honestly believe are hardware related not software related.
 

CurtisF

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Sorry, this week has sucked balls. Anyway, here's some screenies of my daily driver tune. It's exactly the same as my race tune except for the trans shifting and TC lockup. This is the fueling that gave me the dyno numbers in my sig.

Pulsewidth
Screen_Shot_2014-06-04_at_8_44_44_PM.png


Base SOI table
Screen_Shot_2014-06-04_at_8_45_50_PM.png


SOI offset. This is where I pulled back much of the timing. Notice also as oil temps rise the offset drops at idle. This is how I answered the idle chop on a warmed up engine, and even worse chop after running it hard towing heavy up a mountain pass. I can drop that idle range down a bit more as I still see a slight amount of chop. No haze at idle though, so that's good.
Screen_Shot_2014-06-04_at_8_46_42_PM.png


ICP
Screen_Shot_2014-06-04_at_8_47_49_PM.png
 

2000wa250

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OK so looking at that....is my timing table ass backwards?

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CurtisF

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OK so looking at that....is my timing table ass backwards?

Compared to mine, yes.

In the past I've played around with that SOI boosting it up similar to yours, and my truck had way too much timing that I could hear from under the hood. It's a very distinctive pinging sound.

To be fair, I'm running PMR's so I can't jack the timing up too much anyway.

Your ICP is also way up there. I had something very similar back when I was running big oil on stock injectors. Ran like a raped ape, but injectors started dropping like flies after some time.
 

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