Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

Charles

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Maybe in the special Olympics...

Hanging shifts out to dry while accelerating and downshifting so far when coming down any sort of gradient until you either pull the trans into neutral yourself else leave it alone and wait for the BOOM into 5th or the inevitable ba, da, ding, ba, da, ding red popup window alerting you that you are now under reduced engine power due to low engine oil pressure....... is the kind of trans I would nominate for the special olympics category behind a 6.7!

An Eaton Fuller 9 with a hole cut in the floor and big goofy ass shifter where the console used to be would be a HELLUVA better option!

Run FASTER unloaded too because it wouldn't leave the engine out to dry all over the limiter for a 3-5 count on each gear with the converter unlocked.

Loaded, it would just STAY IN GEAR.... what a concept.

And no..... you can't use the shift buttons and manual mode because the delay on those buttons is about 3 times longer than the actual time the engine should even be in a single gear up to about gear 7. So 1,2,3,4,5 for sure all need to happen in the time those buttons would accomplish the ONE-TWO shift, while just sitting on the limiter blinking the number 3, 3, 3, 3......... and then finally going to 3...... hanging up on the limiter for a 3 count while blinking 4, 4, 4, 4..... meanwhile you have pressed the upshift button 1568 times at this point....

When the trans shifts while the truck is FULLY LOADED at WOT it is FIRM, CRISP AND RIGHT NOW on each and every one, skips no gears and shows that the trans is NOT THE PROBLEM. The hundreds of tables and the morons writing them into the TCM are. If there were a PCS for the 10R and a way to tell the 6.7 ECM to STFU about the trans, you could have a hell of a unit. Until then, you have a flaming piece of commy shit with no throttle response trying to wipe the bearings out in the engine and snap something in the trans if you allow it to downshift from 10-9....9-8......8-7.....7-6...... and you don't intervene at that point on the high side of 3500 rpm..... it WILL go for the 6-5.... and BOOOOOOM!

NO.... WAY.... it could do that shift more than a few dozen times before you were walking....

Driving this truck is like riding in a semi with a kid trying to learn how to drive who just keeps over-revving each shift until you're totally off boost, up on the governor, the load has shifted and now he's bound and can't get it OUT of gear.... then finally does only to get into the next gear so late that he's immediately again on the gov.... bound up.... another KA...KUNG out of gear and CLAAAAAAAAASH into the next one with a huge jarring deceleration because again.... it's too late for this gear!

Difference is..... the kid LEARNS and stops over-revving and being a moron.... the 10R180 DOESN'T! In fact.... unless you clear it and disable learning, it will learn itself into the most retarded shifting imaginable. At least imaginable for someone who has driven the pos. Beforehand I wouldn't have been able to imagine a shift strategy THAT RETARDED!

Trans seems fine. Strategy is junk. I pulled everything down with HP Tuners and after looking through that abortion decided there was no saving it. You can change lockup strategy in one place, then you change the radio station and it uses a different map. You find it, then you put on the blinker and it uses another map still. Then you touch the brake pedal..... you guessed it.... abother map for that... then the inclinometer goes over xxxx degrees..... yep... another map...... turned on exhaust brake or tow/haul?..... another and another...... trans temp below xxx.... you guessed it..... another map..... to the tune of HUNDREDS of times...

It's an absolute miracle the things EVER actually MAKE a shift or that they EVER actually lock up at all! They have to make 687,362 decisions and turn 2 nuclear keys simultaneously in order to lockup.... and all that has to happen before you go 20 feet forward.... GOOD LUCK!

The 4:30 gear makes the delay problem painfully obvious. It is ALWAYS behind
 

lincolnlocker

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Hanging shifts out to dry while accelerating and downshifting so far when coming down any sort of gradient until you either pull the trans into neutral yourself else leave it alone and wait for the BOOM into 5th or the inevitable ba, da, ding, ba, da, ding red popup window alerting you that you are now under reduced engine power due to low engine oil pressure....... is the kind of trans I would nominate for the special olympics category behind a 6.7!

An Eaton Fuller 9 with a hole cut in the floor and big goofy ass shifter where the console used to be would be a HELLUVA better option!

Run FASTER unloaded too because it wouldn't leave the engine out to dry all over the limiter for a 3-5 count on each gear with the converter unlocked.

Loaded, it would just STAY IN GEAR.... what a concept.

And no..... you can't use the shift buttons and manual mode because the delay on those buttons is about 3 times longer than the actual time the engine should even be in a single gear up to about gear 7. So 1,2,3,4,5 for sure all need to happen in the time those buttons would accomplish the ONE-TWO shift, while just sitting on the limiter blinking the number 3, 3, 3, 3......... and then finally going to 3...... hanging up on the limiter for a 3 count while blinking 4, 4, 4, 4..... meanwhile you have pressed the upshift button 1568 times at this point....

When the trans shifts while the truck is FULLY LOADED at WOT it is FIRM, CRISP AND RIGHT NOW on each and every one, skips no gears and shows that the trans is NOT THE PROBLEM. The hundreds of tables and the morons writing them into the TCM are. If there were a PCS for the 10R and a way to tell the 6.7 ECM to STFU about the trans, you could have a hell of a unit. Until then, you have a flaming piece of commy shit with no throttle response trying to wipe the bearings out in the engine and snap something in the trans if you allow it to downshift from 10-9....9-8......8-7.....7-6...... and you don't intervene at that point on the high side of 3500 rpm..... it WILL go for the 6-5.... and BOOOOOOM!

NO.... WAY.... it could do that shift more than a few dozen times before you were walking....

Driving this truck is like riding in a semi with a kid trying to learn how to drive who just keeps over-revving each shift until you're totally off boost, up on the governor, the load has shifted and now he's bound and can't get it OUT of gear.... then finally does only to get into the next gear so late that he's immediately again on the gov.... bound up.... another KA...KUNG out of gear and CLAAAAAAAAASH into the next one with a huge jarring deceleration because again.... it's too late for this gear!

Difference is..... the kid LEARNS and stops over-revving and being a moron.... the 10R180 DOESN'T! In fact.... unless you clear it and disable learning, it will learn itself into the most retarded shifting imaginable. At least imaginable for someone who has driven the pos. Beforehand I wouldn't have been able to imagine a shift strategy THAT RETARDED!

Trans seems fine. Strategy is junk. I pulled everything down with HP Tuners and after looking through that abortion decided there was no saving it. You can change lockup strategy in one place, then you change the radio station and it uses a different map. You find it, then you put on the blinker and it uses another map still. Then you touch the brake pedal..... you guessed it.... abother map for that... then the inclinometer goes over xxxx degrees..... yep... another map...... turned on exhaust brake or tow/haul?..... another and another...... trans temp below xxx.... you guessed it..... another map..... to the tune of HUNDREDS of times...

It's an absolute miracle the things EVER actually MAKE a shift or that they EVER actually lock up at all! They have to make 687,362 decisions and turn 2 nuclear keys simultaneously in order to lockup.... and all that has to happen before you go 20 feet forward.... GOOD LUCK!

The 4:30 gear makes the delay problem painfully obvious. It is ALWAYS behind
Did you get the updated trans flash from ferd?
 

Charles

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Wrong.. look up TSB 21-2420 and or 20-2375.

Try another dealer or get the thing tuned if you get pushback.

Negative, both of those were already in my phone and both of them are actual transmission issues....

The trans in my 450 has no actual problem (if it hasn't hurt itself) the TCM is commanding it to do exactly what is happening. It hangs the shifts because the TCM has all these delays built into the strategy for TCC lockup and it can't ever get itself satisfied for lockup until you've already made yourself sea-sick hanging the limiter on each gear with the TCC unlocked until about 8th gear and 70 ish mph when it FINALLY locks and GRRRRRRRR takes off!

Since it will not lock down low the entire shift strategy falls apart. 6.7 with 475hp rated and 10 gears with a 4:30 R&P means shifts necessarily have to happen very quickly but the strategy includes a lot of TIME based delays.... not rpm based or mph based.....so it times itself out and will not reliably make shifts beyond about 1/4 throttle in "normal" mode. In "tow/haul" it can't reliably make shifts even there unless you have a loaded trailer that slows everything down for the little guy. Sometimes it will just miraculously get locked up quick (usually traction control) and then boom, boom, boom, boom right through the gears and just be NORMAL!

In fact.... if you can always get into the traction control map, it will ALWAYS shift beautifully, with the TCC locked and never hit the limiter.

When it came to actual 75% or higher APP take-offs, the truck was always blazingly faster on a soaking wet road, in a downpour vs a perfectly dry, smooth road...... because in the traction control map it would immediately get lockup and then each shift was just sliiiiiightly lower.... keeping it off the limiter.

And I talked to a few different tuners. Something about it being a 2020 was a big hurdle. If it were a 2019 or earlier, tuning would have been easy.

I mean..... just something as simple as say..... don't ever downshift at 0% throttle higher than 2500rpm..... couldn't make it stick. I could get it to work 99% of the time but as soon as it felt s grade over xxxx percent.... HERE WE GO..... right back to damn near 4000rpm with both my feet off the pedals just with the damn cruise on!

I realized Ford was never going to be the answer when I saw a youtube vid where someone was running a 450 on Ford's test track fully loaded and as soon as they started downhill it started going dumb on rpm and the driver was clearly uncomfortable but the Ford engineer in the passenger's seat reassured him and was so proud of the fact that they were spinning it up around 3800rpm for engine braking..... that is a few hundred rpm above the actual redline they self-impose for that engine.

In my experience.... if you say fine.... that's what they wanted, F it.... just leave it alone and ignore the sound of a poor engine getting the wee spun out of it like some pos honda.... it would only result in an eventual reduced power, low engine oil pressure code until you cleared DTC's.

I have actually had to clear that DTC on one side of a hill quickly, before I started up the other side, because loaded, the truck would not be able to move uphill with that code set. Forscan was a requirement if you want to go downhill or touch your brakes when towing or God forbid..... engage exhaust brake or tow/haul!

Thanks so much Ford engineers that want to spin the piss out of a diesel engine on purpose.
 

ToMang07

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The shift scheduling on the 10R180 is why my 2020 F450 on Alcoas and Kelderman mechanical self leveling rear with Carli leveled front has been sitting in front of my barn for months now since I pulled a 22 yr old truck out of the woods that can do the elementary task of shifting.

Hook up a trailer, set the cruise and hit a downhill..... get ready for some rpm..... followed by more rpm..... followed by some RPMMMMMMMMMM until it's on the high side of 3700rpm, no load on f'ing cruise control! Remember..... you have steel pistons....

God forbid you ever engage the exhaust brake or tow/haul! Get ready to blow past the rev limiter at 3100 and head right on past 3500 on your way toward 4k.

Want to go through a roundabout? Forget it.... your throttle is connected to the trans.... not the engine! After shifting from 2-4, back to 3 and back to 5 the throttle might turn back on but by then the person to your left has taken off and you stab the brakes..... F IT!

Such an engineering abortion....

Now I have to dump a truck I put time into because of it. That or gut it and put a 7.3 in it!!!

Don't think I didn't strongly consider it! EPA nutswingers would pass out
I'm extremely glad they went back to steel pistons.

And it definitely sounds like your truck is a candidate for the reflash. Mine hauls a 14k 5th wheel (F250 CCLB) with ease, I love the engine brake, I even use it in 4x4 during slippery conditions so I don't have to ride the brakes.

The Cruise can occasionally flounder in the hills/mountains, I'll give you that, but not usually spinning to many RPMs, more waits too long to shift.
 

PDT1081

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I think people are skipping over the fact Charles has 4:30s instead of 3:55s. I bet a re-gear would help a lot of his problems, but shouldn't be necessary with basically a brand new truck.
 

Charles

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I think people are skipping over the fact Charles has 4:30s instead of 3:55s. I bet a re-gear would help a lot of his problems, but shouldn't be necessary with basically a brand new truck.
Yes, but..... the 4:30 is actually the correct gear, the trans strategy is just poorly written and cannot keep up with reality unless you go easy on the pedal or put a lot of weight behind it, basically anything to slow down the shift frequency. That is for upshifting.... downshifting at 0% throttle is an entirely different kind of stupid.

The HP Tuners stuff just isn't showing anything for exhaust brake....or incline.... and very little help with brake applied map changes, or fluid temp vs converter lock, plus the scanner doesn't work (in HP Tuners) for the 2020 TCM, so you have no way of truly knowing what maps you are even in...

2020 Really broke a lot of tuning options.
 

Powerstroke Cowboy

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Yes, but..... the 4:30 is actually the correct gear, the trans strategy is just poorly written and cannot keep up with reality unless you go easy on the pedal or put a lot of weight behind it, basically anything to slow down the shift frequency. That is for upshifting.... downshifting at 0% throttle is an entirely different kind of stupid.

The HP Tuners stuff just isn't showing anything for exhaust brake....or incline.... and very little help with brake applied map changes, or fluid temp vs converter lock, plus the scanner doesn't work (in HP Tuners) for the 2020 TCM, so you have no way of truly knowing what maps you are even in...

2020 Really broke a lot of tuning options.
Have you visited with Jody from DP-Tuners to see if he has anything in the works for the 2020 F450? He does tuning for the 2020 f250/f350. He also offers a transmission tune only.
 

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