Thats where im at...its a hell of a lot cleaner than the same setup in an identical truck but with 238/80s. And there is a fairly large difference in overall power. The 80% nozzle has a peaky power output that climbs around 450hp on up to the 519 max that it made on the dyno.. my 250/200 billet 38r is undynoed. But its got more power. Guessing, which is horseshti anyway, id say it 40-50 hp hotter everywhere..and cleaner
Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts
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Thats where im at...its a hell of a lot cleaner than the same setup in an identical truck but with 238/80s. And there is a fairly large difference in overall power. The 80% nozzle has a peaky power output that climbs around 450hp on up to the 519 max that it made on the dyno.. my 250/200 billet 38r is undynoed. But its got more power. Guessing, which is horseshti anyway, id say it 40-50 hp hotter everywhere..and cleaner
ja_cain
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Hey Ty, which wheel are you running?
For me seeing the PSN thread link (less the autoguide ad bs now) was kinda cool and good to see the effort made to dig it up.
A lot was tried in the span of a few years, but CR was already killing the hardcore heui and tuning stuff before it could really start. IMO, reman and assy techniques have improved, but most of the inj work today is still done with standard heui service components, larger nozzles, and a few body mods. And, we are at the mercy of the available (and reducing number of) suppliers. If the market stays viable and we take this to a place of commercialized special components (other nozzle springs for different VOPs for example), we may get even further. Who will take heui injectors to the next level? Is there a next level?
Good line of thinking. I think the most advancements in overall power will come for guys who are usingold school engine building knowledge. More air in, more air out. With headflow being worked up to over 200cfm the fuel is going farther.
That said maybe our forged rod daily driver jobs could live at 600 or a tad higher with some improvements to injection quality and being really honest with tuning. This "fight" needed to happen ten years ago.
Look how fast cr is progressing. They talk about what the learn is the difference. Lets face it, this hurts no one. What we intend in this thread nobody really cares about professionally other than sellingbthe software to do it.
Got it from Jimmy Barder three years ago. In fact it was in my turbo before "they were in existence" allegedly. I was told to keep it hushed but nobody gives a shti anymore.
Thank you. These trucks are my passion. The more I learn the more I want to.
cleatus12r
Member
I'm not a vendor, nor do I sell anything. I just find it disheartening that so many people want to ride on the backs of those who (in my case) are in their 9th year of this and have dedicated countless hours making these things do what they should have from the factory.
I don't think the very few on this thread that will actually do anything with this wild be a threat to anyone in the 7.3 market. The folks are trying to et there own trucks running the best they can. No one wants to get this info to go out and undercut any competition. I for one will still be having Php tune my stuff I just wish and hope they can get some info out of this mess to be able to improve the tuning of my truck. ( which btw I've never ever had a tune spot on ever 100% how I would like it to run from any tuner.
Matt does some miracle work down there in Texas! No wonder Larz keeps him locked in the tuning closest.
Vader's Fury
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I understand what you are saying and agree to a point, but isn't everything we do with these trucks "riding n the backs of others?
If Bill hadn't created the software and made it available to others then very few of us would be driving tuned trucks. Let alone trucks with the degree of mods that some of us drive.
Don't confuse me with a person that thinks everything should be free and equal to all though. Just saying it is nice when people share in the interest of making things better for us enthusiasts.
ja_cain
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Hey man, even though I kind of disagree with your view/stance, I can definitely respect your feelings on the matter. I might feel the same way if I had sacrificed the way you did. Historically, I've never rolled like that though. I would give a lot to know a tenth of what you know.
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ja_cain
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Great post!
ja_cain
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I just got tunes from him for my stock truck. I hope to get multiple dyno runs, comparing his to php's equivalent tunes. Just need to address some ancillary stuff before doing it.
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ja_cain
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psduser1
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I was under the impression you worked with bill? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.
I'm not knocking your efforts, by any stretch, simply because I've enjoyed the benefits myself.
Just a statement of fact about the current system. I have no desire to tune, I'm more of a hardware type of guy, lol.
Charles
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I didn't start this discussion to try and take a ready-made, commercially available product and figure out how to DIY cheaper or easier.
I started this thread because every time I have posted about experiences with nozzles of the 200 and larger variety being perfectly tame, and in fact cleaner than smaller nozzles on the street and towing hard I have to listen to cackling about how that's because I tune my own truck, and nobody else can expect to ever get that without paying for someone to personally sit in their truck and do the same....
In other words, the discussion was started because the ones sacrificing time, effort and money apparently did not have a ready-made solution for anyone with say a 200 nozzle that wanted to do anything other than drive away smoking the block out and burning holes in pistons.
When I read about people REMOVING a perfectly good injector because they could not BUY a decent program no matter what they tried, that pisses me off.
Especially since that same person then has NO CLUE how awesome their truck would have driven with about 20 seconds worth of decent hex flashed to it.
If this subject had already been conquered by the pros, they sure as hell did a good job of hiding it.
What I don't understand is why everybody doesn't have a half-dozen or so files for a 200 after various different sessions with people, so that the bases are covered, and while someone will invariably want different preferential things, like shifting, idle speed and such, the simple ability for the truck to functionally go down the road without smoking out the world should have been on lock years ago.
If I wasn't stuck tuning an oddball like AEB, people could already be running my program and giving feedback. It could then be getting altered and shaped into something that could be a readily available go-to file so that worst-case, people would have a file they could depend on. And also, be a standard so that problem TRUCKS could be found out when you run the same file across multiple trucks and 20 run like X and 1 runs like Y....
My goal is for people to upload files that they feel good about and with enough of them the void where people can't even get DOWN THE ROAD worth a damn will be filled.
With enough files people could search through and likely fall on something they would actually like in its entirety.
That's the goal. If I have to, I'll write some new stuff for DAC. My downfall for 99% of the target here is that I cannot BEG an auto PCM to control a 4R100 with any shred of resemblance to what I asked for. If I could figure that out, I might be able to help with the most common cache codes.
Uploading files to be seen and run is the key. I realized I couldn't upload stuff for VDH because all of mine has God knows what for trans tuning, because I pulled the wires away from the Ford PCM and handed them to a PCS.
Files. Anybody not selling files that wants to provide the most momentum should upload stuff. Even if the file doesn't do what you want. In fact, maybe upload trouble stuff more than anything. As long as it's labeled as such so nobody accidentally tries it thinking it's a good file.
Having people across the country be able to pull up a file and actually LOOK directly at the maps is my goal here.
I started this thread because every time I have posted about experiences with nozzles of the 200 and larger variety being perfectly tame, and in fact cleaner than smaller nozzles on the street and towing hard I have to listen to cackling about how that's because I tune my own truck, and nobody else can expect to ever get that without paying for someone to personally sit in their truck and do the same....
In other words, the discussion was started because the ones sacrificing time, effort and money apparently did not have a ready-made solution for anyone with say a 200 nozzle that wanted to do anything other than drive away smoking the block out and burning holes in pistons.
When I read about people REMOVING a perfectly good injector because they could not BUY a decent program no matter what they tried, that pisses me off.
Especially since that same person then has NO CLUE how awesome their truck would have driven with about 20 seconds worth of decent hex flashed to it.
If this subject had already been conquered by the pros, they sure as hell did a good job of hiding it.
What I don't understand is why everybody doesn't have a half-dozen or so files for a 200 after various different sessions with people, so that the bases are covered, and while someone will invariably want different preferential things, like shifting, idle speed and such, the simple ability for the truck to functionally go down the road without smoking out the world should have been on lock years ago.
If I wasn't stuck tuning an oddball like AEB, people could already be running my program and giving feedback. It could then be getting altered and shaped into something that could be a readily available go-to file so that worst-case, people would have a file they could depend on. And also, be a standard so that problem TRUCKS could be found out when you run the same file across multiple trucks and 20 run like X and 1 runs like Y....
My goal is for people to upload files that they feel good about and with enough of them the void where people can't even get DOWN THE ROAD worth a damn will be filled.
With enough files people could search through and likely fall on something they would actually like in its entirety.
That's the goal. If I have to, I'll write some new stuff for DAC. My downfall for 99% of the target here is that I cannot BEG an auto PCM to control a 4R100 with any shred of resemblance to what I asked for. If I could figure that out, I might be able to help with the most common cache codes.
Uploading files to be seen and run is the key. I realized I couldn't upload stuff for VDH because all of mine has God knows what for trans tuning, because I pulled the wires away from the Ford PCM and handed them to a PCS.
Files. Anybody not selling files that wants to provide the most momentum should upload stuff. Even if the file doesn't do what you want. In fact, maybe upload trouble stuff more than anything. As long as it's labeled as such so nobody accidentally tries it thinking it's a good file.
Having people across the country be able to pull up a file and actually LOOK directly at the maps is my goal here.
cleatus12r
Member
I'm bowing out.
Yes, people have made sacrifices to get me where I am today (and had to fix a hole in a ceiling, get bodywork done on two rear pickup fenders, and pay for some travel expenses too...and put up with a big barking dog for almost six months while my ugly camper sat in his driveway), but I am no guru or tuning god so a BIG "THANK YOU" to Bill Cohron for putting up with me for two summers and then allowing me to continue remotely for another year or so. I started tuning because nothing I could get between 2005 and 2007 made me happy. I'd owned two 7.3L Powerstrokes in that time and the only word I could use to describe the tuning I'd found was "frustrated". I started digging on my own...and yes, search-savvy people will see that I asked a lot of questions in the beginning. Heck, back in the Sniper days I even bought a $30 "tune" from Matt for a '96 manual that needed some power.....I paid $30 for increased injection pressure that I could have modified on my own. Well, $30 was less than a Juice module that would have accomplished the same thing.
Look where we are now. We have some tuning places that have figured out that 6.5ms of pulse width at 3000 PSI is too long for 250/200% injectors...and some that still do it. These are the same places that make monumental changes to the start of injection mapping yet "clamp" the maximum SOI to 30 degrees because ....well...I don't know why. The current offering of PCMX known as Minotaur leaves little to be "messed-up". Speaking of ridiculous amounts of commanded pulse width, when one can erase that other tuning and put in a calibration that uses exactly half of the commanded pulse width and STILL make more power (because ICP doesn't fall to 1500 PSI and due to the PW mapping try to run even MORE pulse width at 3000+ RPM) with far less smoke, that says something. When multiple attempts have been made to stop the stuttering and jerking while using cruise control down a hill and it's gone within 5 minutes of live-tuning by someone else, that also says something.
Unfortunately for those in tuning land that don't have the ability to live-tune every vehicle they sell calibrations for, some of their customers must just suck it up and live with the issues. Sure, the more tuning one does for a specific injector, the closer they should come to having ALMOST road-ready tuning for everyone else using that injector. However, that is not the case. I'd be willing to pay the regular custom tuning fee to a vendor that wanted to write me their best daily-driving calibration for a Super Duty with a stock high pressure oil pump and 250/200% injectors that will put me in the 350 RWHP range. It doesn't matter what PCM code is used as I can put any E99-03 automatic PCM in this particular truck that I want without issue in a matter of a minute or two. I can guarantee that it will run like dog poop. I'll even take it on the encrypted Hydra platform for my chip. Scratch that... just write it for TNAA4S2 and I'll put it on a buddy's truck as well as mine. They will run completely different even though the injectors are the same (but from different companies).
Yes, people have made sacrifices to get me where I am today (and had to fix a hole in a ceiling, get bodywork done on two rear pickup fenders, and pay for some travel expenses too...and put up with a big barking dog for almost six months while my ugly camper sat in his driveway), but I am no guru or tuning god so a BIG "THANK YOU" to Bill Cohron for putting up with me for two summers and then allowing me to continue remotely for another year or so. I started tuning because nothing I could get between 2005 and 2007 made me happy. I'd owned two 7.3L Powerstrokes in that time and the only word I could use to describe the tuning I'd found was "frustrated". I started digging on my own...and yes, search-savvy people will see that I asked a lot of questions in the beginning. Heck, back in the Sniper days I even bought a $30 "tune" from Matt for a '96 manual that needed some power.....I paid $30 for increased injection pressure that I could have modified on my own. Well, $30 was less than a Juice module that would have accomplished the same thing.
Look where we are now. We have some tuning places that have figured out that 6.5ms of pulse width at 3000 PSI is too long for 250/200% injectors...and some that still do it. These are the same places that make monumental changes to the start of injection mapping yet "clamp" the maximum SOI to 30 degrees because ....well...I don't know why. The current offering of PCMX known as Minotaur leaves little to be "messed-up". Speaking of ridiculous amounts of commanded pulse width, when one can erase that other tuning and put in a calibration that uses exactly half of the commanded pulse width and STILL make more power (because ICP doesn't fall to 1500 PSI and due to the PW mapping try to run even MORE pulse width at 3000+ RPM) with far less smoke, that says something. When multiple attempts have been made to stop the stuttering and jerking while using cruise control down a hill and it's gone within 5 minutes of live-tuning by someone else, that also says something.
Unfortunately for those in tuning land that don't have the ability to live-tune every vehicle they sell calibrations for, some of their customers must just suck it up and live with the issues. Sure, the more tuning one does for a specific injector, the closer they should come to having ALMOST road-ready tuning for everyone else using that injector. However, that is not the case. I'd be willing to pay the regular custom tuning fee to a vendor that wanted to write me their best daily-driving calibration for a Super Duty with a stock high pressure oil pump and 250/200% injectors that will put me in the 350 RWHP range. It doesn't matter what PCM code is used as I can put any E99-03 automatic PCM in this particular truck that I want without issue in a matter of a minute or two. I can guarantee that it will run like dog poop. I'll even take it on the encrypted Hydra platform for my chip. Scratch that... just write it for TNAA4S2 and I'll put it on a buddy's truck as well as mine. They will run completely different even though the injectors are the same (but from different companies).
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Charles
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I don't know what part of anything you've contributed or written thus far would have you bow out now.
Your contributions to understanding the myriad of PCM codes alone was great. That's the sort of roadblock that has kept people needing files from getting them.
Fwiw, your experiences and mine seem nearly identical...
And here we both sit daily driving 2 hundos on basically stock trucks. We think similarly...at least on certain things...
Your contributions to understanding the myriad of PCM codes alone was great. That's the sort of roadblock that has kept people needing files from getting them.
Fwiw, your experiences and mine seem nearly identical...
And here we both sit daily driving 2 hundos on basically stock trucks. We think similarly...at least on certain things...
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