Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[TyCorr]

At the risk of getting my head bitten off the way this thread is going, but getting better it seems, is your gp circuit healthy? Is it helping you? I had a set of tired injectors that were masked by a healthy gp system. It wasnt physically starting the truck and then the injectors figured out they were supposed to be there too. But after tossing in new injectors of the same size and orifice it got a ten second, unplugged, 8 deg start. Like turn the key...wts light is still on and rrrrr-rrr-rrrrrrr-whack...fired right off.

Another question i have is have you ever had one of those(a 7.3) come out of moderate or greater throttle input and not chop or have a degree of raggedy? 4 totally different setups, the last two redundant, and i always have some raggedy idle immediately after throttling down. Especially if you chop it right off. And it ls waaaay more noticeable with 200% nozzles. But the resting idle is smooth as near as I can remember.

 

[Charles]

At the risk of getting my head bitten off the way this thread is going, but getting better it seems, is your gp circuit healthy? Is it helping you? I had a set of tired injectors that were masked by a healthy gp system. It wasnt physically starting the truck and then the injectors figured out they were supposed to be there too. But after tossing in new injectors of the same size and orifice it got a ten second, unplugged, 8 deg start. Like turn the key...wts light is still on and rrrrr-rrr-rrrrrrr-whack...fired right off.

Glow plugs have no bearing on my point. No smoke was coming out the pipe, therefore no fuel was being injected, regardless of whether or not the cylinder was warm enough to ignite it. And my glowplug system is 100%. New motorcraft plugs went in with injectors.

The point of my post was to point out how much time it takes to actually get the rotella to move into, and shove down on the intensifier piston when it's super cold. Out of those 8.6ms, only about 2.5 of them were actually injecting fuel!

Another question i have is have you ever had one of those(a 7.3) come out of moderate or greater throttle input and not chop or have a degree of raggedy? 4 totally different setups, the last two redundant, and i always have some raggedy idle immediately after throttling down. Especially if you chop it right off. And it ls waaaay more noticeable with 200% nozzles. But the resting idle is smooth as near as I can remember.

Yes. This program comes back to idle well. Seems to be an issue with not having a good balance of ICP and MFD near and below idle speed. The PCM will stab the MFD up real hard, then bounce up, down, up, down, up, down until it settles out. A way to adjust the actual correction speed would be nice. But getting the values it has access to under control cuts off its ability to romp around too much. Worst case I will get a single WACK, when it comes back to idle right as the converter unlocks or something. But usually nothing. Just hits idle.

 

[Charles]

I cranked the truck and drove down to the shop to check and add some trans fluid and remembered to get a video showing the idle. Had a guy talking about people unhappy with the idle with 200's and I just don't mind it myself.

It's around freezing in this video. Notice the tailpipe smoke is basically under control now too.

https://youtu.be/s-vfUOvaLP0

 

[superpsd]

Sounds smooth charles. My 200% B codes are in. I only ran over the main PW map once and pulled some PW here and there. Idle is pretty smooth. I like the 200s so far but I am just getting started dialing them in.

 

[ja_cain]

Charles, it would be cool to somewhat validate your slow oil theory by running an oil that has good low temp flow characteristics. Not sure if you already stated, but what oil are you running? You would think that the hybrid design, along with oil side mods (if any) would make starting easier (relative to a stock injector), unless the larger nozzle is effecting the injectors ability to pop or stay open by not giving enough head pressure. I just can't quite wrap my brain around what is actually happen from a fluid mechanics/mechanical standpoint.

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[Charles]

Sounds smooth charles. My 200% B codes are in. I only ran over the main PW map once and pulled some PW here and there. Idle is pretty smooth. I like the 200s so far but I am just getting started dialing them in.

Looking at the smoke in your video, I would wager a lot that if you pulled a ton of pw the truck would crispen up and be way, way snappier.

 

[ja_cain]

I cranked the truck and drove down to the shop to check and add some trans fluid and remembered to get a video showing the idle. Had a guy talking about people unhappy with the idle with 200's and I just don't mind it myself.

It's around freezing in this video. Notice the tailpipe smoke is basically under control now too.

https://youtu.be/s-vfUOvaLP0

Man, that thing idles like butta!

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[superpsd]

Looking at the smoke in your video, I would wager a lot that if you pulled a ton of pw the truck would crispen up and be way, way snappier.

Lots of tuning still to do. I am slowly learning. I just wanted to work the air out of the system first before I start making changes so I know I am headed in the right direction. I only made one revision to my custom stock injector tune. At idle if I flip it back to my custom stock injector tune white haze. Toggle back to the new tune haze gone. So at least I hope I am heading in the correct direction. If I walk into it for now it stays clear Its a quick low rpm snap that goes all black. I will sit down latter and build 5 or so revised tunes to test out. I ran it across town and it sounds a little better at idle now. I could really use Ae its on my list.

Here is my idle @ 140 eot and just a pulsating mechanical pump that swings 8 psi or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8EZBJaBx20

 

[Charles]

Another question i have is have you ever had one of those(a 7.3) come out of moderate or greater throttle input and not chop or have a degree of raggedy? 4 totally different setups, the last two redundant, and i always have some raggedy idle immediately after throttling down. Especially if you chop it right off. And it ls waaaay more noticeable with 200% nozzles. But the resting idle is smooth as near as I can remember.

Took this a second ago on a gravel road on the way home. Snags idle like a champ.

MFD and ICP desired both have been previously worked for the purpose of a solid idle.

Result:

https://youtu.be/yBrfOm4CKg4


On Edit:

Forgot to add that at the end you can see how low the rpm is in OD when I start lugging into the power uphill. The truck is actually accelerating uphill in OD at about 1600 or so rpm, and as you see in the mirror, nothing. At least I see nothing. If you have a load like a trailer, or on a super steep hill, it will actually start surging the hell out of the 38R.

 

[ja_cain]

Took this a second ago on a gravel road on the way home. Snags idle like a champ.

MFD and ICP desired both have been previously worked for the purpose of a solid idle.

Result:

https://youtu.be/yBrfOm4CKg4


On Edit:

Forgot to add that at the end you can see how low the rpm is in OD when I start lugging into the power uphill. The truck is actually accelerating uphill in OD at about 1600 or so rpm, and as you see in the mirror, nothing. At least I see nothing. If you have a load like a trailer, or on a super steep hill, it will actually start surging the hell out of the 38R.

I'm sold man. Those sticks, your tuning and one of those new b&w sxe turbos and I think I would have one hell of a towing machine.

You do realize it's Valentine's Day and your not supposed to be having this kind of fun. Lol!

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[PsdPullerJr]

How much do you guys play with timing along with the pw and icp?

 

[Charles]

How much do you guys play with timing along with the pw and icp?

The cold weather timing seems fine.

The reason I had to mess with the multiplier so much for pw is because the full power pw is so low compared to stock, that there wasn't much to be multiplied.

In cold weather, most all that extra pw is not injecting fuel.... it's holding the poppet valve open while molasas tries to squish past it. So it doesn't matter how fast the injector is, most of the effort is happening before any fuel ever comes out.

Since the injectors needed 8 to 9ms in order to crank the engine, and I only have 2.12 at full power.... there needed to be a lot of multiplication. Compare that with the stock injectors that run over 4ms at full power. Multiply 4ms by a factor of 2 and you get 8. But multiply 2ms by a factor of 2 and you only get 4.... truck doesn't ever even see diesel fuel in cold weather at 4ms.

Timing is not affected by this problem. The rotella is just as slow to flow into an injector with a 400 nozzle as one with a stock nozzle, so the factory timing trim is gtg.

 

[Charles]

Charles, it would be cool to somewhat validate your slow oil theory by running an oil that has good low temp flow characteristics. Not sure if you already stated, but what oil are you running? You would think that the hybrid design, along with oil side mods (if any) would make starting easier (relative to a stock injector), unless the larger nozzle is effecting the injectors ability to pop or stay open by not giving enough head pressure. I just can't quite wrap my brain around what is actually happen from a fluid mechanics/mechanical standpoint.

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My injectors were actually firing off at lower pw than a stock program would have been calling for. When I asked for 8.6ms the factory program would have been asking for 9.45 in the same conditions IIRC...

My oil is basic 15w40 Rotella. The 5w40 synthetic does better, I've tested it, and ran it a lot in the past, but it's so damn expensive.

The problem is in the full power fuel in the map.

Let me try something visual...

 

[Charles]

Look at the pw map in the program on my gray truck right now:

Compared to the stock pw map:

And it should be obvious why I had to work so hard with the multipliers to achieve similar starting fuel pw for cold weather. The multiplier doesn't have to be very strong when it's acting on such large values as you see in that stock table. But those values would amount to rapid engine and transmission disassembly once up to temp and heinous smoking at all times when trying to drive around if not subdued for a 200% nozzle as in the first map.

 

[Charles]

I'm sold man. Those sticks, your tuning and one of those new b&w sxe turbos and I think I would have one hell of a towing machine.

You do realize it's Valentine's Day and your not supposed to be having this kind of fun. Lol!

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I wish I could drive the file in a manual truck because coming off idle it might take off a little bit and need smoothing out, and I don't know how strong it would be as you come off the clutch. Those are two points I always had to nail down on my actual manual files. Can't stand a truck with no balls when you're coming off the clutch, or one that jumps around in traffic right off idle...

With a converter I can't tune for that.

I guess maybe I could figure out how to lock the converter in 1st, lol.

 

[ja_cain]

Look at the pw map in the program on my gray truck right now:

Compared to the stock pw map:

And it should be obvious why I had to work so hard with the multipliers to achieve similar starting fuel pw for cold weather. The multiplier doesn't have to be very strong when it's acting on such large values as you see in that stock table. But those values would amount to rapid engine and transmission disassembly once up to temp and heinous smoking at all times when trying to drive around if not subdued for a 200% nozzle as in the first map.

Thanks Charles. That helps a lot and makes perfect sense. It was messing me up a little at first until I released the icp units change when going from the icp to pw maps.

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[TyCorr]

Runs good especially for a above 300k mile pmr engine. That truck looks way nice for 300k.

And I do love the way that runs. My idle gives a few chugga chuggas. Now im wondering if it is because the converter staying locked longer...

 

[ja_cain]

I can't remember if this thread was ever referenced, but Dave did an excellent job explaining how to use the tables.

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19267

 

[ja_cain]

Runs good especially for a above 300k mile pmr engine. That truck looks way nice for 300k.

And I do love the way that runs. My idle gives a few chugga chuggas. Now im wondering if it is because the converter staying locked longer...

Yeah, it sounds like beautiful music to my ears. I want some 200's some kind of bad. Did Charles ever state who's injectors he is running?

 

[Charles]

Yeah, it sounds like beautiful music to my ears. I want some 200's some kind of bad. Did Charles ever state who's injectors he is running?

Swamps..... since back when it was either Swamps or Hypermax and that was IT!!!


Back when you put them together with no bench and hoped for the best, and sometimes got it, lol. Because you didn't know anything better!

First injectors I ever ran were 175/146 with some junk tuning from Dennis for AWA that he apparently tripped, fell on his laptop and hit save for. Truck ran like total dogsh*t, idled like dogsh*t, but when you were in the power it sang and made ~350 wheel on the DJ.

Just looked back through my file (physical file with manila papers, folders and all that...) and low and behold, my first dyno ever was in there. Sunbelt power, Yancy bro's Caterpillar chassis dyno for OTR tractors, lol.

With the little wick turned all the way up on my AB's I spurted out 233.00 at 2627rpm.

Wow things are easy now. Most everybody reading this has no idea how locked down everything used to be, and injectors didn't EXIST unless you wanted to give Hypermax half a fortune for a set of nozzles on an AD!