Tuning 101 - Thread Merged with Injector Posts

[DZL JIM]

Thanks, Charles, but I do not have a definitions file to view that file.

My goal is to get the Race tune to spool up like a stock tune. You mentioned that it's almost always pulling pw to help spool up.
When I look at the maps with my Race tune vs stock tune, the Race tune already has pw lower than the stock tune according to the pw map.
Low boost fuel maps are identical.
The fuel pw multiplier map is crazy modified compared to the stock map, is this something I should look at?

Maybe I need to approach this differently. Instead of trying to merge low boost fuel values to a known good high performance tune, I need to start with a stock tune and add fuel and see where that goes. (Yes, I know, it's what I was supposed to do in the first place.)

I have already smoothed out the ICP map and have worked on the pw map to get a noticeable change in idle. Got to start somewhere I guess.

 

[Charles]

It's a tough gig.... but I would highly recommend throwing every altered file you have away and starting from dead stock. Reference the others for ideas.

I have spent years dealing with issues written into the files by others and I never even knew it. Some of the earlier files were just people poking around in the dark with no idea what was happening, then after the lights were flicked on and good templates were available the old changes seem to have grandfathered in along the file save path.

Many people would be blown away by how good a bone stock file actually runs. Most people never realize this until they blow their chip or have to "try" and crank the truck with the stock pcm file only.... and then shock and dismay comes over their faces when they see how the truck cranks right up and idles just fine, lol. Usually a super touchy pedal is the most prominent issue with large nozzles. Otherwise a stock file is usually not as far out of touch as we think.

I agree that you should start there. If you were closer I'd sit in the truck with you and I bet we could get it zipping around in no time.... but that would be a disservice to your learning.

The only way to learn is to screw it up. One word of caution is until you get a real good feel for it, keep your hand at the ready to key the truck off each time you load a new file you've written. Radical changes, especially to MFD can create a run-away..... I knew a guy that had that happen once....

 

[lincolnlocker]

knew a guy? lol.. oops moment?

live life full throttle

god bless america and the farmer who feeds your fat ass

 

[superpsd]

There is a video on YouTube of a 7.3 that would run away once the rpms past like 2K no matter how slow he crept up. It would hit 2K and take off must have been a tuning issue as he stated he had just installed larger injectors with new tuning.

 

[DZL JIM]

It's a tough gig.... but I would highly recommend throwing every altered file you have away and starting from dead stock. Reference the others for ideas.

I have spent years dealing with issues written into the files by others and I never even knew it. Some of the earlier files were just people poking around in the dark with no idea what was happening, then after the lights were flicked on and good templates were available the old changes seem to have grandfathered in along the file save path.

Many people would be blown away by how good a bone stock file actually runs. Most people never realize this until they blow their chip or have to "try" and crank the truck with the stock pcm file only.... and then shock and dismay comes over their faces when they see how the truck cranks right up and idles just fine, lol. Usually a super touchy pedal is the most prominent issue with large nozzles. Otherwise a stock file is usually not as far out of touch as we think.

I agree that you should start there. If you were closer I'd sit in the truck with you and I bet we could get it zipping around in no time....but that would be a disservice to your learning.

The only way to learn is to screw it up. One word of caution is until you get a real good feel for it, keep your hand at the ready to key the truck off each time you load a new file you've written. Radical changes, especially to MFD can create a run-away..... I knew a guy that had that happen once....

Thanks for the support, I guess I need to be patient.
I highlighted in yellow a small detail you may have missed.
It's not a truck I am working on, it's my 7.3 Altered drag car. I can't just head out on the road and try, try, try. I have to shoot for a night at the track, if weather permits. The season is running out and I'm just starting to work on tuning. It's sooo close to running great, just need to get it to build boost at the line. But some things can't be rushed and my only option is some patience right now I suppose.

 

[TyCorr]

It's a tough gig.... but I would highly recommend throwing every altered file you have away and starting from dead stock. Reference the others for ideas.

I have spent years dealing with issues written into the files by others and I never even knew it. Some of the earlier files were just people poking around in the dark with no idea what was happening, then after the lights were flicked on and good templates were available the old changes seem to have grandfathered in along the file save path.

Many people would be blown away by how good a bone stock file actually runs. Most people never realize this until they blow their chip or have to "try" and crank the truck with the stock pcm file only.... and then shock and dismay comes over their faces when they see how the truck cranks right up and idles just fine, lol. Usually a super touchy pedal is the most prominent issue with large nozzles. Otherwise a stock file is usually not as far out of touch as we think.

I agree that you should start there. If you were closer I'd sit in the truck with you and I bet we could get it zipping around in no time.... but that would be a disservice to your learning.

The only way to learn is to screw it up. One word of caution is until you get a real good feel for it, keep your hand at the ready to key the truck off each time you load a new file you've written. Radical changes, especially to MFD can create a run-away..... I knew a guy that had that happen once....

I drove my truck for 5 weeks on the stock nvk4 definition. Light throttle is touchy but the rest was fine. It can have some idle issues hot as the pw kinda hunts around. It must be tuning related because all the files I got from John idle like glass when the truck is cold, warm or hot even.

Good advice

 

[Charles]

Thanks for the support, I guess I need to be patient.
I highlighted in yellow a small detail you may have missed.
It's not a truck I am working on, it's my 7.3 Altered drag car. I can't just head out on the road and try, try, try. I have to shoot for a night at the track, if weather permits. The season is running out and I'm just starting to work on tuning. It's sooo close to running great, just need to get it to build boost at the line. But some things can't be rushed and my only option is some patience right now I suppose.

That's why I said I would find some backroads and tune the thing in. It will take 1000 times longer at the track if ever...

At the track you can't exactly roll in it, roll out.... look at the scanner, roll back in, look in the mirror, look back at the scanner, coast, roll back in, yada, yada, yada....

The track is a waste of time IMO. That's the place to go see what you've accomplished in the power department, not figure out broad concepts.

There have to be a dozen roads around you that a person could drive up and down with a lawnmower if they so chose. Pine trees are an excellent tuning audience.

I haven't spent much time trying to tune something on a track, so take it for what it's worth. Seems real hard. Kind of like trying to learn how to lift at a collegiate weight room with the football team watching and talking smack. Probably not going to be too easy to focus on learning.

 

[PsdPullerJr]

Jim if you want get ahold of Jesse warren. He's not too far away you could haul it there and tune it on the dyno and he could help and answer questions.

 

[MeTo]

There have to be a dozen roads around you that a person could drive up and down with a lawnmower if they so chose. Pine trees are an excellent tuning audience.

^^^ THIS ^^^

I do this regularly and the conifer trees here don't laugh or leave.

I have a ritual I'm sure you all would like to hear. All most every morning, I take a cup of coffee, the dog and walk out to the road; we live in the woods. I take a leak, usually scratch my butt and walk back. Not many have the freedom to do this anymore.

 

[DZL JIM]

That's why I said I would find some backroads and tune the thing in. It will take 1000 times longer at the track if ever...
At the track you can't exactly roll in it, roll out.... look at the scanner, roll back in, look in the mirror, look back at the scanner, coast, roll back in, yada, yada, yada....
The track is a waste of time IMO. That's the place to go see what you've accomplished in the power department, not figure out broad concepts.
There have to be a dozen roads around you that a person could drive up and down with a lawnmower if they so chose. Pine trees are an excellent tuning audience.

I get it, I hear what you are saying.
But the fact is that is --impossible-- to do. I will have to assume you don't know what an Altered Drag car is. I get strapped in a roll cage that's an inch larger than me in every direction. Literally. There is no room for a scanner, much less be able to move my head to see one. The car sits less than 3" off the ground and easily high centers on even the smallest blemishes in the road or grass area, and has a turn radius of 1/2 mile. A crewcab longbed spins right around compared to this thing.
Oh, and maybe I forgot to mention that I live next door to the copunty sheriff station, with 4 other police stations within a 10 minute drive.

But I get what you are saying. That would be best to do.
It's just what I have to deal with and I'll figure it out eventually. Thanks for all the support, though, and I will continue to throw out questions as I get them.

 

[DZL JIM]

Jim if you want get ahold of Jesse warren. He's not too far away you could haul it there and tune it on the dyno and he could help and answer questions.

Yeah, I know Jesse.
He live tuned my 6.0 shop van. It took 6 months to get an appointment for that, and I've been trying to get a revised tune for 4 months since the tuning session. He's a crazy busy guy like all the really good tuners are, which is why I am trying to figure it out myself.

 

[Charles]

If you can't drive it up and down the road.... you can't drive it up and down the road....

(I would drive it up and down the road and tune it in, lol)

So aside from that.... all you're really tuning is a nozzle, not a cantankerous vehicle. Tune that same nozzle in your pickup and swap the file over. It will run the same in terms of everything you've mentioned that you wanted to work on.

Doing it at the track is hard even for an accomplished tuner. It will take decades, if ever, trying to learn from scratch that way. Just look at how many programs suck for proof! Instead of getting to test an idea ever so many minutes like when at the track, you get to see how many ideas you can test per minute on the street. You're only limited by how many seconds it takes to make a reflash.

If you can't move quickly, you forget what it was you were working toward, and why by the time you make that next pass. It's just hard, damn near impossible.

If I were forced into that I would see how to exit the return road and hit the nearest 2 lane and come back in a half-hour with a years worth of results.

 

[DZL JIM]

If you can't drive it up and down the road.... you can't drive it up and down the road....

(I would drive it up and down the road and tune it in, lol)

So aside from that.... all you're really tuning is a nozzle, not a cantankerous vehicle. Tune that same nozzle in your pickup and swap the file over. It will run the same in terms of everything you've mentioned that you wanted to work on.

Doing it at the track is hard even for an accomplished tuner. It will take decades, if ever, trying to learn from scratch that way. Just look at how many programs suck for proof! Instead of getting to test an idea ever so many minutes like when at the track, you get to see how many ideas you can test per minute on the street. You're only limited by how many seconds it takes to make a reflash.

If you can't move quickly, you forget what it was you were working toward, and why by the time you make that next pass. It's just hard, damn near impossible.

If I were forced into that I would see how to exit the return road and hit the nearest 2 lane and come back in a half-hour with a years worth of results.

One step ahead of you.
We just flashed the PCM in my truck to the same code as what's in the car so what I do in the truck will work for the car tune/file. (same VDABO mdf file)
Now, I just need to find a scanner and get some data, and see how I can screw it up.

Edit: What I mean by work in the car tune/file, too, I don't currently have the luxury of tuning a set of 300/200% in the truck with the same turbo, etc, but I can at least learn what does what with the software to get me started.

 

[Charles]

One step ahead of you.
We just flashed the PCM in my truck to the same code as what's in the car so what I do in the truck will work for the car tune/file. (same VDABO mdf file)
Now, I just need to find a scanner and get some data, and see how I can screw it up.

Edit: What I mean by work in the car tune/file, too, I don't currently have the luxury of tuning a set of 300/200% in the truck with the same turbo, etc, but I can at least learn what does what with the software to get me started.

All you need is the same nozzle. Just tune the same nozzle on any available platform and the changes will carry over. You're looking for broad conceptual changes related to response and primarily off-boost attitude. Those issues will not care much about anything but the nozzle and state of tune.

Coincidentally.... this is the exact same point that spurred this very thread into existence.

I think you will see it for yourself if you can get over the learning hump. Motivation is what you need and I think you've worked up plenty.


If it's 3/2's you're after, the file on my truck right now would probably get you most of the way to where you want to be. I wish I didn't always have to work with obscure cache codes due to needing a manual PCM...

 

[DZL JIM]

...Coincidentally.... this is the exact same point that spurred this very thread into existence...

Yeah, I know.
And I'm super impressed with how well the 200% nozzles run and idle with no chip in the PCM!

 

[DZL JIM]

So I have a modified tune with LESS pw and LESS MFD than a stock tune, and the stock tune still spools up better.
Where do I look to turn the fuel back even more?
The tune on the scanner shows MFD at a 2200 RPM (for example) is actually almost 20 mg or so higher than what the map shows at 2200 RPM, at the same throttle position.
Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[Charles]

So I have a modified tune with LESS pw and LESS MFD than a stock tune, and the stock tune still spools up better.
Where do I look to turn the fuel back even more?
The tune on the scanner shows MFD at a 2200 RPM (for example) is actually almost 20 mg or so higher than what the map shows at 2200 RPM, at the same throttle position.
Any thoughts appreciated.

Why can't you start with what works.... the stock program?

I gave up trying to fix screwed up programs years ago. If one works better than another, I don't even consider correcting the bad one. Life's too short.

And when it comes to programs modified by God-knows-who... there's a lot of potential tail-chasing involved. Some people dick with every number then can find everywhere they can find one to change, never note if it did anything good or not and then never go back and set things back the way they were, they just leave countless changes in place to screw you up in ways you could never imagine.

For spool, think ICP. Get it up fast with throttle application. By half throttle you need to be 3000psi. Use that for a starting point and see if you get anywhere. And get off the screwed up program.

 

[DZL JIM]

I did start with stock tune, just did what I described above.

I'll look at the icp approach as you suggest.

 

[DZL JIM]

I found part of my issue, well sort of. Even though I thought I had the motor and trans warmed up early on, say 100* EOT, the stock tune spooled up great. Try a few times with other modded tunes, back to stock tune and it seemed to do well.
Today after playing with the QuarterHorse for an hour, EOT reached 130* or so (doesn't seem like much) but the stock tune acted just like it did at the track -- no spool up either.
I can't find anything in the maps that would show a drastic change in fueling for such a small change in temp. Possibly a change in trans fluid temp causing converter to act differently, not sure. Trans temp gauge never really moved.
Now I am trying to get a stock tune to spool up when warm (not even hot IMO) and go from there.
I have ICP set to come up early and was dropping PW and MFD for the spool-up range (1800 - 2500 rpm) using a bone stock file.
Got any tips on what could possibly be causing this temp related discrepancy? Or do I keep plugging away at the PW and MFD tables?
Thanks.

 

[Charles]

For a race program that doesn't deal with varied conditions you might just negate any temp stuff you find, but be aware, especially in the fuel temp stuff this will require substantial remapping of the fuel in the main pulsewidth map because the multiplier is nearly NEVER 1.0!

Fwiw, I found much improved idle and general driving crispness stability by noting that as you approached operating temp the pulsewidth multiplier was shifting around. I held it constant from a relatively "cool" EOT onward. Idle was immediately improved and general doggy feeling normally associated with a warm engine on larger nozzles went away.

As to you point...

Remember that when you remove pw you must add icp in the same spot to keep the truck from falling down. This is unless the pw is way too high to begin with.

What pw values are you running in the 2000rpm range anyway? Like 2.xx? If it starts with a 3, that might be something to try. Lower it more...

Another note.... when working with conceptual stuff make BIG moves. Don't move by 0.1ms... move by a whole millisecond at a time or so. Move MFD by like 10, move ICP by like 500....

Make BIG moves so you can see what is being affected. Then tone it back down if it moves the way you want and dial it in.

Without BIG moves you can't really tell what the hell is happening. It's like sighting in a gun without knowing which direction of the scope moves which way, or if it moves at all! You need to make big changes to see the shot move WAY over, then you know.