Turbo Tuning

[MAFoElffen]

I'm a little frustrated. I put in a boost fooler in anticipation of an impending turbo upgrade. I set it to . So my electronic gauges now won't read boost above 25 pounds. (They go through the PCM.) My mechanical does, but it's a GlowShift and for some reason it's just not smooth when it works ( I hate that!!!).... That is sort of an sideline issue, not really what this frustration is about...

I have 2 turbo's. First was a spare TP-38 with a Riffraff 60mm billet wheel (ww2) type, EBPV delete high-flow exhaust outlet, EBPR delete pedestal. When I rebuilt it, I upgrade that to a 360* thrust bearing. I also put on a 1.0 A/R turbine housing. I switched out my stock TP-38 for this onto my truck and it was giving me a consistent 20psi on WOT accel, with a peak of 25.6 psi. It was spinning up at between 1400-1500 rpm. I was getting about 20 mpg.

After running that awhile, I was planning for support for a future injector upgrade to 238's. I talked to James about that when I was trying to decide on 238/100's or 238/200's. After talking with him about that, I occasionally tow, so I need to leave that in the mix. I decided on 238/100's and a long-range goal to go an S468. He thinks that will be ideal to clean those out. He thought a D66 would not be enough...

I knew I would need more air to support the 238's... I figured in the meantime, I would make one more upgrade step until I could afford a jump to a T4 and T4 kit... My original TP-38, I updated/ rebuild that one. I took the compressor housing/backing plate off that one and sent it to James as a core ... to get his ported Billet 66mm Kit...

James had been been doing this awhile with his billet 66mm and he's been getting boost numbers above 40psi.... with a 1.15 A/R housings. You guy's tested that kit and had been getting those numbers with that... I figured since I tow, that I try it with a 1.0 A/R housing.

Now for the frustration part of this. I think I went backwards somewhere. I put the newer parts on the turbo I had on my truck. Since I was getting god number with that combination housing/backing plate/wheel... I kept that together to put onto my spare. I figured I'd take those parts on the updated/rebuilt spare... to sell.to help pay for my injector upgrades. Like I said, my 66mm upgrade seemed to have backfired somewhere. (Now I'm keeping it in case I need to back off my upgrades!?!)

My first test, it peaked at 20.8, then... it wouldn't get above 14.7psi. My EBP numbers are higher. My EGT's are higher by about 150*F. I lost that snap I had at lower RPM's below 1800rpm and it doesn't pick up as fast. My mileage went down to 16mpg. I noticed the compressor pitch is different and for some reason. it's quieter that it was with the 60mm billet wheel combo. I did notice my pedal is higher (in relation to speed)... but...???

I thought, even though I didn't hear any, but maybe I had some cold side leaks. I had noticed that when the ported housing.backing plate got here, that it had been sand blasted and wasn't as tight a fit together... even with the new o-ring. I pulled it back off and resealed the comp housing with silicone. I really didn't want to do that, but the housing went together too flush with the original type o-ring which with stock housing, there is a slight bit before you tighten it down... and an over-sized o-ring was going to be too much. I didn't want to warp the housing with an extra thick o-ring. So . I replaced all my clamps with heavy duty cold side clamps. My numbers now are back up to 20 psi... but no more above that. It does seem to be a little better, but still something is not as expected.

Boy... I really didn't think I'd go backwards with that. I wrote Jame's about my concerns and problems. No answer from him yet. I just figure He must be busy. Maybe he'll jump in here.

I'm sort of thinking and thought maybe putting on a 1.15 A.R housing to see what it'll do... but I thought that maybe I would not have to do that after the 238's, not before. I'm almost ready to swap the other turbo back onto it.

I'm not here to bad mouth James, just the opposite. I've always had good luck with him, his parts. I still have the highest admiration for him and I want to keep the relationship we have going. I figure he's had good luck with that combination... So that maybe "I" have done something wrong or have overlooked something somewhere. I'm just at am at a loss where that might be.

I know some of you here can be over-critical just for the entertainment... but I'm here looking for constructive ideas that I may have overlooked.

 

[rusty1161]

Have you checked for boost leaks? Or exhaust leaks (uppipes).

Rusty

 

[MAFoElffen]

Have you checked for boost leaks? Or exhaust leaks (uppipes).

Rusty

Yes. (noted that in first post).
- I sealed the housing with the o-ring plus silicone.
- The only pieces I had taken off were the spider/"Y" pipe... I inspected and checked inspected every boot, fitting and such for leaks (none). I don't have the pipe done for my 6.0l IC yet, so there wasn't much to check there.
- I didn't see or here any leaks at the plenums. Usually if there, then it has a bit of oil dampness blowing from it, but it's dry around both of them.

Even though I didn't find anything in those, I did replace all my clamps with Heavy truck clamps (about $50 dollars worth)... and it did get back up to 20 psi, but not any better.

This is just odd. I know the 60mm billtet I have (riffraff thru Barder) It should be louder. That bigger wheel 66mm) is going through the same inlet and outlet, extending further into the inlet throat... But I can hear it, but it is so much quieter than my so much smaller wheel.

I cleared things away from the turbo, blew it off real well... and started it up. It spins free. It spins free by hand. So I know it isn't dragging or bearings. (new kit was 3.5 months ago.

When I pulled it, i looked over the exhaust and didn't see any indications at all. Everything exhaust-wise seems to be sealed well. Maybe I should strap a baby montito under the hood to hear what it sounds like while on the road? Not sure that would work... LOL.

It's on the same physical turbo that the other numbers were coming from. I don't see any reason why the numbers went backwards... I guess better to have problems now... and work them out, than when I go to chance injectors and be dealing with multiple changes eh?

Well- Have to pick up some ordered parts- 1/2 hour into town, over the pass. Another excuse to test-drive it.

 

[rusty1161]

Yes. (noted that in first post).
- I sealed the housing with the o-ring plus silicone.
- The only pieces I had taken off were the spider/"Y" pipe... I inspected and checked inspected every boot, fitting and such for leaks (none). I don't have the pipe done for my 6.0l IC yet, so there wasn't much to check there.
- I didn't see or here any leaks at the plenums. Usually if there, then it has a bit of oil dampness blowing from it, but it's dry around both of them.

Even though I didn't find anything in those, I did replace all my clamps with Heavy truck clamps (about $50 dollars worth)... and it did get back up to 20 psi, but not any better.

This is just odd. I know the 60mm billtet I have (riffraff thru Barder) It should be louder. That bigger wheel 66mm) is going through the same inlet and outlet, extending further into the inlet throat... But I can hear it, but it is so much quieter than my so much smaller wheel.

I cleared things away from the turbo, blew it off real well... and started it up. It spins free. It spins free by hand. So I know it isn't dragging or bearings. (new kit was 3.5 months ago.

When I pulled it, i looked over the exhaust and didn't see any indications at all. Everything exhaust-wise seems to be sealed well. Maybe I should strap a baby montito under the hood to hear what it sounds like while on the road? Not sure that would work... LOL.

It's on the same physical turbo that the other numbers were coming from. I don't see any reason why the numbers went backwards... I guess better to have problems now... and work them out, than when I go to chance injectors and be dealing with multiple changes eh?

Well- Have to pick up some ordered parts- 1/2 hour into town, over the pass. Another excuse to test-drive it.

Did you test for leaks with compressed air with the engine off? That part is not clear in your post.

Rusty

 

[MAFoElffen]

Did you test for leaks with compressed air with the engine off? That part is not clear in your post.

Rusty

No I didn't. You mean disconnect and block the "Y" pipe and intake, then figure out some way to hook compressed air to it to test it to about 40-50 pounds? Spray soapy water and watch a gauge to see if it leaks down?

If you don't disconnect it at the plenums... How do you keep it from getting past the valves? I thought about it, but I couldn't figure how to go about that... I thought maybe if I backed off the rockers, then I could check everything connected... and I could also check my plenums for leaks... (???)

Funny thing is that is went all at once along with this last upgrade. One possible sticks in my head: That maybe it did build up like it should have on that first test... above that 25.6 psi that it was peaking out at before with the old turbo... and with the higher pressure- then blew something out, that I just haven't found yet. Being the whine is less with a supposedly more aggressive wheel, sort of lends me to think that I should continue to look for boost leaks.

I know one thing- If I do have plenum leaks- that would be a good time, opportunity and excuse to upgrade to 3" billet plenums...

The other possible of might be, it that I was probably at the limit of fuel (Injectors) with the setup I had... giving it more air... I might be running lean on the mix now? On the other side of that, when I go WOT, I still have black smoke...

 

[rusty1161]

10-15 psi is plenty. Build one of these http://powerstrokenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145831 and you can hear the leak(s), or use a soapy water solution to pinpoint.

Rusty

 

[MAFoElffen]

Great idea. I think I have all the materials for that here. Will have to make one tomorrow and check it out.

Thanks. Will get back to this post after that.

 

[OBS-Addiction97]

How old is your sir filter?

 

[MAFoElffen]

How old is your sir filter?

oke:
I assume you are making a good intellectual related joke on my behalf? My hat is off to you sir. So others can laugh along with that pun- The Sequential Importance Re-Sampling filter (SIR) theorem is based on sound being filtered out by the presence and accumulation of built up other white noise...

I do suffer from tinnitus, which affects that, but I'm using the change in pitch and volume as a diagnostic tool assuming it went along with the drop in performance. Actually, with my tinnitus, turbo whine and motor noises are usually amplified for me over other noises (like my wife talking to me). Are you saying that there may be no relation sound-wise? That since I do not know what a stock 66mm wheel would sound like in that, that I have nothing to base that from as a foundation? With that, you are probably right. I do not.

But you are also correct in that what is important to me (as a priority) is not how it sounds, but rather the performance, which in this case has gone backwards and dropped out for me.

 

[fordfreak4life]

Ever think that you just don't have the fueling capabilities to spool the charger?

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[MAFoElffen]

Re: Not enough fuel in the charge.

Just- Maybe (before the 238's). I did make an assumption on my part that it wasn't too soon based on the black smoke being there before the upgrade and now.

That is why I asked James what he thought on that (still no answer). He knows what my setup is. I wouldn't think going up from what I was running to what this is, would be such a reach. He said himself, that a Billet 66mm (D66 type) charger would not flow enough to clean out 238's on the upper end... That I would need more air, like from a T4, to do that. He had originally actually recommended against this kit, because he knew it wouldn't be enough air for what I was going to down the road... that with 238's I'd have to detune them.

I did "jump" into that without making the injector and tunes changes first, assuming it would spin up. I did assume that I wasn't that far off between this turbo and my other turbo setup. I just thought this would be a good intermediate level to get me by (for when the 238's are in) until the T4.

But I understand that that is a factor and true concern. If I don't find anything otherwise blatantly boost leak related, then I upgraded to that level too soon and injectors/tuning down the road would catch up to that. In that case, until I get those injectors and other mods in, I would re-install my 60mm setup until I catch up with my other mod's... Then re-install this turbo when I install those mod's and see how they balance out.

You are right in that, even though I have (on the average) higher back pressure in relation to my old numbers, I'm not building enough back pressure to keep my drive ratio up. My drive ratio tune was at 1.10:1... which was probably as good as it was going to get with what I was running for other support. James was surprised that that setup did so much better than he imagined it would. I was hopeful, but my drive ratio since this upgrade really fell through the floor.

Sad part is that I've had too much recent practice pulling this turbo on and off than I should have. I don't want to say I'm getting better at it, because I don't want to jinx myself on that.

 

[gnxtc2]

No I didn't. You mean disconnect and block the "Y" pipe and intake, then figure out some way to hook compressed air to it to test it to about 40-50 pounds? Spray soapy water and watch a gauge to see if it leaks down?

If you don't disconnect it at the plenums... How do you keep it from getting past the valves? I thought about it, but I couldn't figure how to go about that... I thought maybe if I backed off the rockers, then I could check everything connected... and I could also check my plenums for leaks... (???)

Funny thing is that is went all at once along with this last upgrade. One possible sticks in my head: That maybe it did build up like it should have on that first test... above that 25.6 psi that it was peaking out at before with the old turbo... and with the higher pressure- then blew something out, that I just haven't found yet. Being the whine is less with a supposedly more aggressive wheel, sort of lends me to think that I should continue to look for boost leaks.

I know one thing- If I do have plenum leaks- that would be a good time, opportunity and excuse to upgrade to 3" billet plenums...

The other possible of might be, it that I was probably at the limit of fuel (Injectors) with the setup I had... giving it more air... I might be running lean on the mix now? On the other side of that, when I go WOT, I still have black smoke...

Since you are running no IC, disconnect the turbo intake. Make up an adapter so you can attach and air line coupler. I use a Fernco coupler and some pvc from Homey Cheapo. Regulate the air down to 15-20psi. No need to disconnect the y-pipe. You want to the test to be the same as if it was running.

I doesn't matter if the valves are open. The cylinder will just fill up with air. Depending how the condition of your engine is, air will get past the rings into crankcase. I don't agree with some to plug the breather. I'm not a fan of pressuring the crankcase and blowing out a seal.

Billy T.
[email protected]

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[MAFoElffen]

Good news <> bad news.

Used a 4" internal cap w/ an air fitting. Put it into my intake snorkle.

Good News = No leaks in the cold side.

Bad News = Well that would point to not enough fuel yet to drive it. Too much air for now.

So looks like I'll swap that turbo back out and put my old setup onto it until I get the 238's in and the tunes to support both. I'll leave that turbo setup ready to drop back in for that.

Hopefully when I get back to that, it will all work together. Thanks all.

 

[rusty1161]

Good news <> bad news.

Used a 4" internal cap w/ an air fitting. Put it into my intake snorkle.

Good News = No leaks in the cold side.

Bad News = Well that would point to not enough fuel yet to drive it. Too much air for now.

So looks like I'll swap that turbo back out and put my old setup onto it until I get the 238's in and the tunes to support both. I'll leave that turbo setup ready to drop back in for that.

Hopefully when I get back to that, it will all work together. Thanks all.

With diesels, too much air(lean) doesn't lead to high EGT's. These engines don't respond to lean/rich mixtures like gas motors. High EGT's typically mean too much fuel/not enough air.

Rusty

 

[2000wa250]

Exhaust leak. Somewhere. No doubt about it. I'd be willing to bet that the baby's butt isn't seated completely and you are bleeding exhaust pressure there. High egts + low(er) boost + new turbo install = exhaust leak.

Up pipes, baby's butt, flange, something. It is possible to tighten the clamp and have everything "look" correct as well as "feel" correct while still having a very significant exhaust leak.

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[MAFoElffen]

With diesels, too much air(lean) doesn't lead to high EGT's. These engines don't respond to lean/rich mixtures like gas motors. High EGT's typically mean too much fuel/not enough air.

Rusty

As for the last suggestion from 2000wa250 and rusty:
There were no exhaust leaks. I had it apart again and none. Was no boost leaks, I found none and it was sealed up tight.

As for fordfreak4life:
You were spot on. Not enough fuel to spin it up. Pulled it and put my other turbo back on. Instantly back to 1.12:1 drive ratio, gutsy again, loud turbo whine, could feel it spin up and dig in. EGT's were down to what they were before (lots less).

I'll just save it until I get the 238's in with tunes adjusted for both. Itchy to get "that" done now to see if that balances back out..