Weird HPOP pressure problem

[CurtisF]

All great questions, TARM. I'll try to answer them (at least the ones I can).

Did this just happen one day or was it part of a upgrade or did it come on gradually? You get what I am asking.

Bigwheel wanted me to tune his truck. He's had some issues for a while with cold start smoking, some excessive smoke when driving, and very high EGT's. He has been running someone else's tunes (I won't mention who because I'm not wanting to even give the slightest impression I'm trying to bash anyone or run anyone into the mud).

Basically switching to a different set of tunes has continued some of these same problems. It seems that he's got a few issues with the truck that I'm trying to figure out. And since I've never seen HPOP pressures react like his does, it's why I started this thread in the first place.

I am with Talyn on the fact of you can not always rely on readings looking ok as certainty the sensor MAP, ICP etc are not the actual issue. Sucks as it sure makes it harder to diagnose.

I agree.

Just to note, when HPOP pressures don't come up, there's very obvious smoke to accompany it. So something is going on.

To recap,

Both trucks are running the same tunes and same injectors and hpops. As long as you roll into it the truck in questions will build to the tunes ICP requested 3K psi. If you stomp on it no matter what the starting gear, rpm, speed it will only hit 2200 and basically falls on its face with all the smoke etc that comes with it?

Pretty much, yes. Although rolling into it still doesn't quite peg 3K psi.... it's just below it at 2900-something. It should max at 3100, which is what the other truck does. So it seems the HPOP is struggling already.

You noticed aeration bubbles in the oil on the dip stick after less than a min of running with 10 min rest.

What about your other truck doing the same thing?

I wasn't there when bigwheel checked the oil. However, I haven't seen or heard of bubbling oil issues from the other truck.

What oils are you using? Are they both running the same oil? How many miles and time does the oil have on it currently?

They aren't running the same oil. Bigwheel is running Schaffer's, the other truck.... I don't know.

Any noticeable changes with a oil change?

I'll leave that question for bigwheel.

Can you post up some logs of the the HPOP ICP PSI Duty cycle and % along with PW and note when its stomped vs rolling into

I don't have the datalogs recorded. Next time we meet up I'll do some recording.

Maybe a faulty pop off valve on the HPOP. It sees pressure spike and it causes it to maybe be partially opened/leaking but if brought up slowly it holds. Not typical but figured I would throw that out there.

If a pressure spike is happening, it's doing it so quick that AE doesn't see it. Because when I had AE hooked up, I would watch pressure build to 2200, and stop. No spikes registered.

 

[bigwheel]

The smoke at smoke at start up and fuel smell at idle have been present since injector install.

Oil I am not sure for other truck. Running 7000 15w-40 with about 3500- 4000 miles since last change. I have never seen oil run this thin off the dip stick.

 

[TARM]

What I meant by pressure spike was not to infer something out of the norm but just when you go WOT hard and quick you basically are slamming the IPR closed to bring pressure up and it you have something going funky with the pop off valve it could be some how leaking or allow bypass which is dumping oil. That compared to rolling into it where things come up gentle comparatively.

That was just something that popped into my head when I was thinking about the issues.


Obviously if your HPOP ICP is way low compared to what you are calling for in the tune and you have fueling off boost I would fully expect it to smoke like a pig and fall on its face.

The first thing I would do is swap in know good sensors and maybe the ICP. See what you get. If its still in the crapper why not swap the two HPOPS and run it. That should answer it or greatly narrow it down.

 

[Tom S]

If you two want to borrow my manual guage when you play with it next you are more then welcome.

 

[bigwheel]

Awesome thanks Tom. Would you guys recommend replacing injector o-rings to check one thing off the list as poss. source? I dont know of anyone with a HPOP down this way so that might be a while.

 

[Tom S]

You could also consider manually pressure testing the heads if you wanted.

 

[bigwheel]

Can you explain how you do that?

 

[Tom S]

It is basically a lever grease gun fillied with oil that is used to pressurize an individual head with oil. I would have to hunt around to find you a link on how to build one.

 

[Hotrodtractor]

The smoke at smoke at start up and fuel smell at idle have been present since injector install.

Oil I am not sure for other truck. Running 7000 15w-40 with about 3500- 4000 miles since last change. I have never seen oil run this thin off the dip stick.

How long has it been since the injectors were installed?

It is very possible you tore an o-ring or do not have the injectors properly seated. If you can link the problems beginning with the injector install - then I would take a closer look at the install.

 

[Big Bore]

I believe he said earlier the problems started when he installed the injectors. If that was the beginning of the problem, seems like a good place to start.

Were those injectors new? Not asking who's they are, but are they from one of the top builders? ( Swamps, Cass, Unlimited etc)

I read through the thread and didn't see a buzz test. Knowing Curtis I'm sure he did one, just wondering.

 

[bigwheel]

Thanks guys,

The Injectors are Full Force's. I got them used with 2000 miles on them then I put them in my truck. I would say they have 5000 miles on them now.

The smoke at start up has been since the injector install into my truck.

If one of the injectors wasn't seated all the way or an o-ring is bad could this cause the HPOP to only see 2200 at WOT?

 

[Hotrodtractor]

If one of the injectors wasn't seated all the way or an o-ring is bad could this cause the HPOP to only see 2200 at WOT?

Yes - if the injector is not seated all the way then that could be your problem. Oil pressure could build up and blow by the top o-ring. It definitely causes a leak in the fuel passages where fuel will drip into the cylinder - hopefully you just need to pull them and inspect the coppers and the o-rings. If you have one that is not seated all the way it will eventually burn through the lower o-rings and cause a pretty major fuel leak into the cylinder and you'll definitely know it then.

Start by pulling the valve covers and starting the engine to look for "extra" oil leaks around the injectors - if nothing stands out - pull the sticks back out and look for clues.

 

[bigwheel]

Tom did you ever find a wright up on testing with a grease pump?

 

[Tom S]

Well, using a pressure rig from Kim Lux' instructions, I pressurized the passenger side rail and found it would pump right up to 3,000 psi but bleed off to nothing in about 15 minutes.
I was little bummed out since I was sure that o-rings were the smoking gun from all the discussion of symptoms.
Quit for the night and cleaned up as it was about time to say goodnight and get the kids off to bed.... then it occurred to me that I ought to test the driver's side head before I called it quits.
ZERO pressure could be held in the driver's side rail with my test rig. The rig uses a grease gun as a pumping source for the 15w/40 oil and moves a pretty small volume each stroke. But for comparison, I think it only took about 6-8 pumps to hit 3,000 psi on the other side, pumping as fast as I could I was only able to get the needle to slightly rise off the peg.

Pulled the valve cover today and could see oil gush out from around the base of the injector when I tried to pump up the rail... pretty clearly a bad o-ring on the #2 hole. Pulled all four injectors on that side and found the top cushion o-ring shot, shaved away to the point that the circle was broken and the sealing o-ring was pushed up into its place where broken!
There was NO metal backing ring behind the cushion ring!

Pulled the passenger injectors since they were modified all at the same time and found the same destroyed upper cushion rings on all of them. Again no metal backing ring on any of them! Some how they were able to hold pressure, even in their distorted condition.
Not sure if the metal ring was unknowingly left off or if it was a different design that obviously doesn't work. The injectors had only being in for about a year and a half.... way premature for failure.

Took lots of pics (of the test rig too) and will post when I finish up the o-ring install. I am using Alliant o-rings as they are appearently the OEM manufacturer of the injectors themselves. The kit includes all three parts of the upper o-ring set - Metal backing, square-cut cushion, and upper o-ring - Middle and Lower o-rings and the copper washer.

Sorry for the long post but people had asked for me to keep them posted. I think it is helpful to others too so that if they encounter similar things, they will have a starting place.

Thanks again to those who got me pointed in the right direction to find the bad o-rings!

God bless,

TC

***Dinner time here on the west coast and the chicken is ready to come off the BBQ!!!

:ford:

one

 

[Tom S]

Well I was able to talk to Ryan Bean yesterday... only to find that he had already posted a reply here regarding my o-ring failure!

As you can see, he was pretty stand up about it and admits that someone on his end screwed up and there should have been metal backing rings installed on my injectors. Thanks for not playing games Ryan!
Sounds as though I may have eventually had similar issues even if they had put the metal rings on since the cushion rings weren't so good from his supplier either! Oh well, life is hard... and then you replace o-rings! Other than the labor, I don't think there were any side effects, the bits of cushion ring were probably all caught in my oil filter. Oh, there was the brief stopage of my heart when the jostling of the dipstick during the injector R&R caused the o-ring on the dipstick tube to break and subsequently make me panic when saw fresh oil pouring out on the floor when the truck fired up!!!!!!

Well here comes my attempt to post some pretty ugly pictures!!! Bean admits that the Dipaco cushion rings were problematic but I am not sure if any other cushion ring would have held up better in the absence of the metal backing ring...
In addition to the ugly pics are some of the very useful pressure rig I made from Lux' instructions... it is very useful troubleshooting tool!

Here is a close up shot of the failed Upper o-rings on my #2 injector. Note the absence of the metal backing ring.

Here is #2 next to #4... as you can see there isn't much difference.

Here is the entire Driver's side bank, all upper cushion rings shot.. The photo is not too clear but the o-rings had to deform up into where the cushion rings erroded and the metal backing rings are absent.

These are the passenger side injectors, no backing rings here either! Look at how bad off the upper cushion and o-rings were and they still held pressure in a static test. Who knows what leaked and didn't leak when the motor was hot and running???

Here is the whole ugly set. While cylinders #1,3,5,and 7 weren't in much better shape that rail was pumping up to 3,000 psi.


The following photo is of the test rig (a la Kim Lux) I used to pressurize the individual cylinder heads...high pressure hydraulic hose, fittings, a gauge and a grease gun for the source of pressurized oil.

Looking back at my records it looks like I had about 18,000 miles on these o-rings before they gave up.

Hope the photos are informative... On to bigger and better things!

God bless,

TC

two

 

[Tom S]

Dave, Dave, Dave... who ends their weekend on a Sunday??? Was enjoying the sunny weather through Monday before heading home!

There is no "Real Story!"
You called it dead on. The hydraulic hose has 1/4" JICs on both ends so a JIC-to-#5 O-ring boss adapter allows it to connect to the fuel rail. The Tee allows connecting the 3k psi guage, and a 7k psi shutoff valve allows you to pump the oil rail up to pressure and then lock it down. The grease gun just uses a grease gun whip hose with 1/8" NPT on both ends.

The beauty of the device is that it allows you do a bit more discrete system checking than just a gauge on the whole system.
By disconnecting the HPO hose (from the HPOP) at the 90 fitting on the head, the 1/4" JIC of this rig can connect in its place, isolating that head from the system. With the v/c off, i was able to watch the oil gurgle up from the base of the inj. with the bad upper o-ring as i pumped the grease gun.
Granted, cranking the engine should with the v/c off should have revealed the same thing. In my case, I was able to narrow it down to the driver's side head before ever having to pull a v/c off, as it wouldn't hold any pressure. (It also let me know that the pass. side was not the source of the leak.)
With valve shut off, it can be used as a standard HPO gauge for checking the whole system too.

I am not taking anything away from a gauge set up to monitor pressure at the rail, it is a great idea too. I just saw some advantages to Kim's setup, having a pressure source built into the rig, as more specific system sections can be independently tested.

The most costly parts were the gauge (only liquid filled ones were available at that pressure range - which is good if you will use it to monitor a running engine) at about $35, and the high pressure shut off valve (7k psi) at $32.

Here are some other photos just for kicks!

And finally, here's a pic of the rig being used to pressurize the driver's side head, what you can't see is the end of the 1/4" JIC connected the the existing fitting on the head... I simply removed the factory hose and put the tester in its place.
Also note the highly refined bailing wire hook used to keep the grease gun upright so it wouldn't dump the 15w-40 all over the place!

Hope this info is useful. Sorry for presenting it as a mystery, I was just being careful to give credit to whom it was due and not take it myself!

God bless,

TC

three

 

[bigwheel]

Awesome thanks Tom

 

[bigwheel]

So I installed the new injector o-rings 2 weeks ago and got some seat time over the weekend. About 400 miles. Seems like the truck might be the same with a lot of white smoke at first start. It will burn your eyes if walk into it. So a lot of fuel. Temps might be a little less by 50 and at the stab of the throttle the truck still falls on it face. Any thoughts? I am going to install a different IPR this week and see where we stand.

 

[Wackerjr]

So I installed the new injector o-rings 2 weeks ago and got some seat time over the weekend. About 400 miles. Seems like the truck might be the same with a lot of white smoke at first start. It will burn your eyes if walk into it. So a lot of fuel. Temps might be a little less by 50 and at the stab of the throttle the truck still falls on it face. Any thoughts? I am going to install a different IPR this week and see where we stand.

IPR will do nothing.... white smoke =fuel.... put a known set of good injectors in the truck and I would bet the issues go away.

 

[Big Bore]

IPR will do nothing.... white smoke =fuel.... put a known set of good injectors in the truck and I would bet the issues go away.

What if it was fuel that was injected under low pressure?