whats the biggest inj. I can get

littleredstroker · Nov 13, 2011

I will eventually get a different turbo it will just be about a year or so till I can talk the ol lady into it. I was thinking 200ccs too

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

Your issue sounds like injector o-rings to me.

Compression is checked using an adapter in the GP hole.

I wouldn't get a nozzle size less than 100% on any injector. I have 175/30% and wish they were 100% nozzles.

littleredstroker · Nov 14, 2011

Can you explain to me what is happening with the o rings? My dads pickup had them leaking when he bought it 8 years ago and they would always leak down into the cylinder so wouldn't this be thee same?

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

littleredstroker said:
Can you explain to me what is happening with the o rings? My dads pickup had them leaking when he bought it 8 years ago and they would always leak down into the cylinder so wouldn't this be thee same?

No they can leak down into the fuel, a black fuel filter is a good indicator, and they can also leak out the top. The fact it starts harder the colder it gets is a good indicator. When plugged in the heat swells everything up just enough for the worn 0-rings to seal. The misfiring injector probably has the worst amount of wear on the o-ring(s).

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

Have you verified the GP's are working?

littleredstroker · Nov 14, 2011

The fuel filter has always been clean I change that every 10k. It smokes black when cranking regardless of how cold it is so I didn't think it would be GPs. It will run like piss even if I let it idle for a half hour, then when I go to drive it and give it some throttle it clears up instantly like someone flipped the "run like crap" toggle switch off

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

littleredstroker said:
The fuel filter has always been clean I change that every 10k. It smokes black when cranking regardless of how cold it is so I didn't think it would be GPs. It will run like piss even if I let it idle for a half hour, then when I go to drive it and give it some throttle it clears up instantly like someone flipped the "run like crap" toggle switch off

You can start the engine and let it idle for hours and it may never reach operating temp, especially at the sensor which is the HPO reservoir. Once you begin driving it starts running the warmer oil from the crankcase through the HPO system faster and warms those o-rings that are won and causing the "misfire". I had this exact same problem with a set of injectors that had 30K on them. Pulled em, confirmed bad o-rings, replaced, truck fired up all winter long without being plugged in.

IPR o-rings could also be an issue, but not likely to cause the other symptoms like the "misfire".

Another thing to check is stick EBPV.

But I'm going with injector o-rings being the main culprit. If you can identify the injector having issues, pull it and check, pretty simple task.

littleredstroker · Nov 14, 2011

Ok. I will checkl that when I pull then but I still want to put in new injectors just because I want mo-powa. I will make sure I find the problem for sure before I do them, but still want to get an idea what shooters would be best

littleredstroker · Nov 14, 2011

If it was o rings. Would I be gaining oil? Or would doing an oil analysis show me?

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

littleredstroker said:
If it was o rings. Would I be gaining oil? Or would doing an oil analysis show me?

You know what will show if it's o-rings? Pulling the injectors and looking at them.

No you will not gain oil. In fact I'm pretty sure that's impossible. For one the engine doesn't manufacture it, and if the oil volume in your pan is increasing then it's being filled with either fuel or coolant, both of which would/should be obvious.

firehunter · Nov 14, 2011

Big Bore said:
I wouldn't get a nozzle size less than 100% on any injector. I have 175/30% and wish they were 100% nozzles.

This, to me, is a bold statement. I understand the benefits of being able to inject the required amount of fuel in a shorter period of time (relative to stock nozzles) but isn't there some downside as well? I was told via email from a tuner that idle quality becomes more difficult to obtain the larger the nozzles get, particularly in colder temps (i.e. below zero) and higher in elevation (>4,000 feet). I am all for getting larger nozzles but, personally, I am NOT willing to sacrifice drive-ability in all conditions for the increase in performance.

I think you can do a good job of convincing me that I can have my cake and eat it too considering you experience all the same environmental conditions that I do relative to temps and elevation. Lets hear it!

PowerstrokeJunkie · Nov 14, 2011

The oil side of the injector is running at 500-3000psi at all times, which means if there was a leak between the fuel side (40-50psi) and the oil side, the oil would flow to the fuel side and actually enter the fuel side of the injector, eventually making it's way out of the tip of the injector and into the cylinder. This will cause blue smoke when cold until the engine heats up some. Like said above, when cold everything is smaller and the o-rings are stiffer, once warm everything swells up some- i've seen it happen on cold leaking triton v10 manifolds, they are fine once warm. Your problem is probably similar to this idea. I dont see how the fuel filter will turn black on a stock dead-head fuel system, once fuel leaves the bowl and travels to the head it won't go back to the fuel bowl. Your issue is probably the o rings, and you have to pull the injectors to replace them, you want more power- sounds like a no brainer.

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

firehunter said:
This, to me, is a bold statement. I understand the benefits of being able to inject the required amount of fuel in a shorter period of time (relative to stock nozzles) but isn't there some downside as well? I was told via email from a tuner that idle quality becomes more difficult to obtain the larger the nozzles get, particularly in colder temps (i.e. below zero) and higher in elevation (>4,000 feet). I am all for getting larger nozzles but, personally, I am NOT willing to sacrifice drive-ability in all conditions for the increase in performance.

I think you can do a good job of convincing me that I can have my cake and eat it too considering you experience all the same environmental conditions that I do relative to temps and elevation. Lets hear it!

I'll do my best lol.

First of all, idle quality is simply that. I can live with a rough idle. My first set of tunes from my current tuner didn't idle well, but drive-ability improved night and day compared to the previous tunes from someone else. Couple dial ins and idle was fine. My tuner run's 200% nozzles and lives well above 4000ft and drives and tows over 10,000ft with them. He has mentioned some idle issues, but drive-ability is excellent. I'm not sure how much more extreme of conditions a person can get than what he has been doing with his so far. I've received quite an education from my tuner on just exactly how the tuning works and I'm satisfied that the bigger nozzles are better all the way around. He has the fuel pulled way back on the 250cc injectors to protect his PMR's, basically he is using a little more fuel than my 175cc injectors flow, but more efficiently with the larger nozzle.

To put it in perspective, the 100% nozzles are half the size of a 200% nozzle that I already know can be tuned to run perfectly in my conditions, and I'm convinced that 100% nozzles would bring my egt's down a bit allowing me to run a little faster towing on the passes etc. I'm almost to the point of pulling the injectors and sending them in for new nozzles just to experiment while I'm building my new motor. In fact, I'm fairly certain a 200% nozzle would have even more advantage. Given that, my comments that I would never run a nozzle size smaller than 100% is fairly conservative.

Powerstroke Cowboy · Nov 14, 2011

Big Bore said:
I'll do my best lol.

First of all, idle quality is simply that. I can live with a rough idle. My first set of tunes from my current tuner didn't idle well, but drive-ability improved night and day compared to the previous tunes from someone else. Couple dial ins and idle was fine. My tuner run's 200% nozzles and lives well above 4000ft and drives and tows over 10,000ft with them. He has mentioned some idle issues, but drive-ability is excellent. I'm not sure how much more extreme of conditions a person can get than what he has been doing with his so far. I've received quite an education from my tuner on just exactly how the tuning works and I'm satisfied that the bigger nozzles are better all the way around. He has the fuel pulled way back on the 250cc injectors to protect his PMR's, basically he is using a little more fuel than my 175cc injectors flow, but more efficiently with the larger nozzle.

To put it in perspective, the 100% nozzles are half the size of a 200% nozzle that I already know can be tuned to run perfectly in my conditions, and I'm convinced that 100% nozzles would bring my egt's down a bit allowing me to run a little faster towing on the passes etc. I'm almost to the point of pulling the injectors and sending them in for new nozzles just to experiment while I'm building my new motor. In fact, I'm fairly certain a 200% nozzle would have even more advantage. Given that, my comments that I would never run a nozzle size smaller than 100% is fairly conservative.

Not to mention Charels and a couple other on this forum have said, That they would go no smaller then 200% SO i agree 100% are perfectly fine.. After all it's ALL in the tunning..

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

PowerstrokeJunkie said:
I dont see how the fuel filter will turn black on a stock dead-head fuel system, once fuel leaves the bowl and travels to the head it won't go back to the fuel bowl.

Ahh yes, having gone from an OBS, to a SD that already had the RR, that one slipped by me, good catch and point well taken. I have a set of injector o-rings I got from Riff Raff 6 months ago sitting on the bench so I can get rid of my own oil consumption problem, and I have a black fuel filter from it in the bowl right now.:doh:

I have noticed that I get a higher amount of oil consumption starting it and letting it idle for long periods before driving off, an indicator IMO of the engine not being fully warmed up until it gets driven a bit.

firehunter · Nov 14, 2011

Big Bore said:
My tuner run's 200% nozzles and lives well above 4000ft and drives and tows over 10,000ft with them. He has mentioned some idle issues, but drive-ability is excellent.

Trust me, I am very familiar with Curtis and his 200% nozzles...and his politics... LOL

I am fully convinced the bigger nozzles are the way to go when driving/towing at full engine operating temps, no question. My truck has to start (and run!) after sitting in below 20* temps for a week (with no block heater) at your elevation. No problem for 100% nozzles, right? 238/100's will do this reliably? I'm all for it if it's true!

I have already switched to the T-5 Rotella 10w-30 and cold starts are much, much easier which will help with any injector.

Big Bore · Nov 14, 2011

firehunter said:
My truck has to start (and run!) after sitting in below 20* temps for a week (with no block heater) at your elevation. No problem for 100% nozzles, right? 238/100's will do this reliably? I'm all for it if it's true!

Man there are only so many places where people live at my elevation. You must live close to me.

As to the starting issue, I have the same situation. I rarely plug my truck in, and thats only if temps have been sub -10* and only for an hour or so, I live off the grid and that block heater drains power pretty quick.