Another 6.0 turbo thread.

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

I know this horse has almost been beat to death but over the last few days I have been going though some other turbo threads. Looking to break 600 and my best dyno to run to date is 523hp on No-limits dyno and a best track pass of 13.1 at 101. Would like to be high to mid 12's this season and over 600hp and I think that should be doable with my 190/75's so looking to change up my turbo. The biggest question is vgt or non vgt, right now I have a P-max with a RDP billet wheel and I see about 38psi at wot out of it now. So here are my two turbos I have come up with to run and I am trying to figure out which way is the best to go and with give me the best results. Option one is to stay VGT and get a Barter stage 3 with a 68mm wheel and option 2 is s366 on a t-4 mount. How I am looking at it is a s366 will be easier on the motor with less back pressure but drivability will suffer and that a barter stage 3 will be harder on the motor but the drivability will be there, am I thinking about that wrong or no? Looking for any and all input on this. Another thought is that the barter turbo is a drop in and stock appearing turbo so that would let me run work stock classes for pulling this season. Right now the truck has studs, RR, Airdog II ( what a pile of sh*t), powermax w/billet wheel, cass 190/75's. Looking to do a ported intake and built trans before the NHRDA season opener if all goes as planned. Truck is a DD so keep that in mind to.

 

[SmokedF747]

I'll be honest with you, my s366 from barder is SMOOTH, i have no complaints with the spool, and smoke is not an issue at all, literally cleaner then can be, and I have 300/100 conventionals. so I vote s366, can make it billet if you wanted even better spool.

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

My 366 spooled very quickly back when I ran that. I think you can't go wrong either way, but I would be more tempted to try the barder stage 3. They seem to have awesome results

 

[SmokedF747]

I have contemplated going back to vgt, any temptation in that for you josh?

 

[Josh@DirtyDiesels]

I have contemplated going back to vgt, any temptation in that for you josh?

ehh I have thought about it but probably not gonna happen

 

[java]

I think a barder 68 or a KC 68 would be a great running setup.

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

Who is kc? Haven't really heard of them.

I think a barder 68 or a KC 68 would be a great running setup.

 

[java]

http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46105

He is a vendor here now.

 

[KCTurbos]

This may not be what you are looking for... but those numbers seem a little low to me with the setup you have. You make peak torque at 2300 rpms and then it drops like a rock and your peak hp is at 2800 rpms and then drops off quick. I spend a lot of time studying dyno graphs, experimenting with different setups, and I can tell you that does not seem right. I know different dynos read different but I am talking about the shape of your curves, where you make your power, and how fast the power drops off. I would venture to say that you either have smaller injectors than you think, stock nozzles, or something else is wrong with your truck... could even just be the tach was not reading the rpms right which would mess up the dyno.

I would first find out if there is anything else going on before you upgrade. That way you don't get a bigger turbo and end up with the same issues.

Who's tunes r u running?
What are your max egts?
How much smoke are you putting out at the end of your WOT 0-100 run?
What is your fuel pressure?
Does your truck seem luggish?
Did you run the dyno to the redline?

I would recommend going through and checking all of your sensors and making sure you have no boost or exhaust leaks. Check the up pipes for leaks, also check the ypipe to turbo connection. Check all your boost, intercooler and charge pipes. I doubt you have a boost leak because you are making 39psi on a pmax but it is quick and easy to check. Also even though you are making 39psi it could be operating in a very inefficient part of the compressor map to overcome any leaks that you might have (basically putting out a lot of hot air).


Here are the sensors that I would check, clean, and make sure are reading right

IAT
MAP
MAF
EBP
BARO



After you make sure that everything is working right I would imagine you should be in the 550+ hp range with your current setup. Any of the turbos you are looking at should get you pretty close to 600hp. Then you will just need to decide between vgt or non-vgt. They both have their pluses and minuses

 

[swinky]

Why focus so much on numbers when he posted some pretty damn good track times for his setup?

Maybe the dyno just reads low? I promise you if he's trapping 101 in an excursion with a billet wheeled powermax there's no major boost leaks or any serious issue.

Op I will be running an s366 with 190/75s here shortly and will be hitting the track for sure. Once everything is dialed in I'm hoping for a 12.7 or better.

 

[KCTurbos]

Why focus so much on numbers when he posted some pretty damn good track times for his setup?

Maybe the dyno just reads low? I promise you if he's trapping 101 in an excursion with a billet wheeled powermax there's no major boost leaks or any serious issue.

Op I will be running an s366 with 190/75s here shortly and will be hitting the track for sure. Once everything is dialed in I'm hoping for a 12.7 or better.

Why not :shrug:


I try to use as many tools as I can at my disposal. I like to use my dyno graphs, compressor maps, turbo calculators and track times in conjunction. I can usually back up and learn more about any vehicle or setup that I am testing because of the many tools at hand. Just sticking to one number usually limits the amount of info that we can pull out of a setup. Also each tool has their advantage and disadvantages. There is no one perfect system to determine how a truck is running. There are also many things that can affect each tool. Some of these being elevation, temp, humidity, etc...

Also if you took out all my comments about the numbers for peak power (which too many people focus on) and simply read about the shape of the graphs then it might help to figure out what I am saying. A cool thing that dyno graph can do that the track cannot is show you how the power comes on and then falls off. It can tell you at what point you are making peak power. It can show you when your power falls off to almost nothing. Those are all things that cannot be shown by the track.

I have help a lot of people that upgraded turbos only to find out something else is wrong with the vehicle. It would not take long to double check everything.


FOR EXAMPLE: If he were to tell me that everything else is fine and his max egts were only about 1300 degrees and he see zero smoke out the tail pipe at WOT then that would leave me to believe that a bigger turbo wont help out his setup much until he figures out why and how to get more fuel. You need to have the right ratios and everything in check to make more power.

Hope that helps explain my viewpoint a little better

 

[swinky]

Yeah I gotchya, I just don't see a billet wheeled pmax doing much better than a 101 mph trap speed, regardless of setup. I'm positive you're more knowledgeable than me on this. Just looking for conversation/answers.

 

[sootie]

Yeah I gotchya, I just don't see a billet wheeled pmax doing much better than a 101 mph trap speed, regardless of setup. I'm positive you're more knowledgeable than me on this. Just looking for conversation/answers.

if its a dd then track time doesnt mean everything. drivability may be a totally other story.

 

[swinky]

if its a dd then track time doesnt mean everything. drivability may be a totally other story.

true, but focusing on max hp on a dyno doesnt show drivability either. I think he'd be most happy with a 68mm vgt in the end.

 

[KCTurbos]

Track times and peak Dyno numbers do not show driveability...

But the shapes of the Dyno graphs and where u make your peak power and how long your power lasts before it drops off... now that can show u a lot more about driveability and how your truck is running.

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

The way the dyno graphs drop off is because I was scared to really let it eat on the dyno due to I was in Tennessee and had to drive it home to California. I am fighting a fuel pressure issue due to my airdog always fighting me.

Here is the dyno run I did the 532 on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0iYgNIvm4

To my knowledge I do not have any leaks but I can go check for that.

My tuner on those runs were innovative diesel
I always peg my 1,600 gauge
A decent amount of smoke I would say
On a wot run it can drop to 30psi
Some days it feels better then others but I attribute that to the airdog
No I did not run the dyno to red line.

 

[sootie]

Track times and peak Dyno numbers do not show driveability...

But the shapes of the Dyno graphs and where u make your peak power and how long your power lasts before it drops off... now that can show u a lot more about driveability and how your truck is running.

my point exactly

 

[KCTurbos]

The way the dyno graphs drop off is because I was scared to really let it eat on the dyno due to I was in Tennessee and had to drive it home to California. I am fighting a fuel pressure issue due to my airdog always fighting me.

Here is the dyno run I did the 532 on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0iYgNIvm4

To my knowledge I do not have any leaks but I can go check for that.

My tuner on those runs were innovative diesel
I always peg my 1,600 gauge
A decent amount of smoke I would say
On a wot run it can drop to 30psi
Some days it feels better then others but I attribute that to the airdog
No I did not run the dyno to red line.

Wow! Thanks! Great detailed response. That really clears things up! I think you would benefit greatly from a bigger turbo. Looks like there is definitely some fuel on the table!

Also I would work on getting that fuel pressure up!

IMO A 366 or 68mm vgt turbo should work well with your setup.

 

[weekendwarriorfsw32]

You guys suck thats why I started this thread so some one would go just do the 68 vgt or s366 LOL I think I am leaning towards doing a VGT for reasons that its drop in and it looks stock so I could pull in work stock. Would going non vgt save me much on back pressure at WOT or is it a wash?

Wow! Thanks! Great detailed response. That really clears things up! I think you would benefit greatly from a bigger turbo. Looks like there is definitely some fuel on the table!

Also I would work on getting that fuel pressure up!

IMO A 366 or 68mm vgt turbo should work well with your setup.

 

[KCTurbos]

Choosing between those two turbos will come down to personal preference.


A vgt turbo will usually spool much faster. Most describe it as exponential boost growth. This can often help with drive ability. Although with that said... some people hate how vgt turbos spool. Vgt turbos will run with a slightly higher back pressure (some better than others). The vgt uses the vanes and back pressure to increase the spool time of the turbo. This will also result in a slight loss in flow up top. Tuning and better options have really helped out vgts to be much better over the years.

A non-vgt turbo will usually spool a little later in the rpm band and build boost on a more linear level. You can pick your AR housing to help that but if you get too small of AR you will choke out the turbo. Also different up pipes and housing styles can help greatly with spool up. There are a lot of different options out there to help with spool up. A properly setup up non-vgt turbo will usually outflow a vgt turbo of similar size at the top of the rpm band.



I don't think you will see a huge power difference between the two turbos. It will be more of a difference in how the power comes on.