Oil selection FACTS for HIGH HP applications

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

Here is an interesting read.

Warning, you must read the entire thing in order to get a basic understanding of engine oils and additives.

Im thankful for guys like this that will truly do testing.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32279

This read will give a breakdown of many oils used today. Some facts and data is missing the the key facts are in place concerning wear protection.

I have always been told by my oil superiors above me that they always recommended GAS engine oil for high HP applications because DEO is a weaker oil regarding wear protection and thermal breakdown.

Enjoy.

Jonnydime · Feb 16, 2015

So I should use Pennzoil Ultra 5W30 in my 6.4?

jimdawg185 · Feb 16, 2015

Use an API approved CJ4 oil spec'd in your manual for the ambient temps you will be operating in.

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CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

Yeah. To clarify. I thought I put in the first post. That was geared for the HIGH horsepower boys that's are putting a large strain on their rotating mass. Like drag strip or sled pulling.

For normal driving 10w30 diesel engine oil is perfect. Actually better than anything else for our climate.

Especially 10w30 synthetic... good brands have no viscosity index improver so the oil can be ran longer.

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

The goal is having between a 10-11 cst@100*C. For the 6.7L

In which the 10w30 synthetic does just that with a very good cold weather thickness rating.

I tend to run mine alittle higher like a 13 cst@100*C. (212*F)
Because I have a large quantity of it.(15w40 synthetic) Therefore I'm a bit easier on my truck cold. Actually let it warm up. LOL

psduser1 · Feb 16, 2015

CATDiezel said:
Yeah. To clarify. I thought I put in the first post. That was geared for the HIGH horsepower boys that's are putting a large strain on their rotating mass. Like drag strip or sled pulling.

For normal driving 10w30 diesel engine oil is perfect. Actually better than anything else for our climate.

Especially 10w30 synthetic... good brands have no viscosity index improver so the oil can be ran longer.

Would that hold true for heui s?

I thought that was worthwhile to read! Maybe the new heui pump unicorn guy should read that...

jimdawg185 · Feb 16, 2015

VI improvers are not really for extending oil drains. VI improvers increase the viscosity index (arbitrary graph that indicates vis change over temp change). They are used in multi Vis oils. The molecule chains react to heat and uncoil to increase the vis as the temp rises.

jimdawg185 · Feb 16, 2015

OK, so I held off so I could think about how to go about this....

First this guy has some great info mixed with some bad info and the mixture can be quite confusing to those who do not know much about oils, and to those who do...

I have the fortune of being personal friends a guy who designed most of the ZDDP that is in most if not every one of the oils he tested. I suppose the best place to start is that not all ZDDP is the same. So, he is correct that you can not just look at the levels of ZDDP to judge anti wear, but that would be the limit of that logic. Generally speaking, you see high levels of ZDDP when a major uses the lower quality add packs. And lower quantities when they use a higher quality add pack. Evidence of this seen when you compare analysis reports between the same engine, over similar loads, over the same amount of time. Higher quality add packs are more robust than less expensive ones (they are consumed slower).
ZDDP is helpful at times where the hydrodynamic film of the oil fails and the asperities on the opposing surfaces start to make contact. So this idea that film strength is the only thing that does that is not true. Moly, ZDDP are not EP additives technically. EP additives are switched on when heat and pressure increase because of nearing asperity contact and increased friction.ZDDP does do this in a way, but it is more an anti wear, which means it coats and activates. He is correct that it does not build up, so more is not really better. More only deepens how long it can last. Better is better...
Film strength is not the only thing that separates oils when it comes to wear. If that were true then Honda's new 0w16 oil would be king **** and everyone would be using it. Film strength is only one of many variables that keep one specific type of wear from happening, and it has a smaller part in the rest of the types of wear.

In the bigger picture, oil is made up of many different chemicals that all have different functions that are designed to operate in harmony with one another over a certain time period. This is what needs to be considered when choosing a lubricant for your application. The test this person does only focuses on one type of wear at one brief period of engine operation. You engine does more than just start and starve itself of oil pressure (even though there are areas in the engine that do get starved from time to time).

jimdawg185 · Feb 16, 2015

For your high HP engines... The most important factor in lubricant selection is Viscosity.
The engineers from Navistar and Ford choose this spec based on mostly two factors. Load and speed.... Load is based on pressure over surface area. Speed is the actual velocity of the parts in opposing motion from one another (the bearing surface and the journal surface), not just the RPM of the engine.

One of my friends at Mobil was telling me a story about their visit to John Force Racing. They were using a straight 70 in their race engines.

The problem with diesel engines is those large journals make velocity much higher than it would be in a smaller journal engine. The bearing surfaces are traveling farther at the same rpm. In general higher speed would translate to lower vis, and higher load would translate to higher vis. So in general, until you make some serious power, 15 40 should be pretty solid. I would probably look at a 20 50 over 800, more so if the power comes on at a lower rpm.

powerstroked08 · Feb 16, 2015

When we had our dirt late model we built it with as small of a rod journal as possible to lower speed( we called it bearing speed) and we ran straight 50 kendall gt1. The engines NEVER had any wear issues in 15 years of racing. It makes sense what your saying about the larger bearing/journal area in these diesels. Just courious (maybe this is a question for your other thread) how much does pressure play a role in oil. I'm refering to a heui system. Does oil thats subject to high pressures tend to break down any differently than non high pressurized oil?

psduser1 · Feb 16, 2015

jimdawg185 said:
For your high HP engines... The most important factor in lubricant selection is Viscosity.
The engineers from Navistar and Ford choose this spec based on mostly two factors. Load and speed.... Load is based on pressure over surface area. Speed is the actual velocity of the parts in opposing motion from one another (the bearing surface and the journal surface), not just the RPM of the engine.

One of my friends at Mobil was telling me a story about their visit to John Force Racing. They were using a straight 70 in their race engines.

The problem with diesel engines is those large journals make velocity much higher than it would be in a smaller journal engine. The bearing surfaces are traveling farther at the same rpm. In general higher speed would translate to lower vis, and higher load would translate to higher vis. So in general, until you make some serious power, 15 40 should be pretty solid. I would probably look at a 20 50 over 800, more so if the power comes on at a lower rpm.

I'm not turning over 4k, not at any length of time, for sure, lol.

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

jimdawg185 said:
VI improvers are not really for extending oil drains. VI improvers increase the viscosity index (arbitrary graph that indicates vis change over temp change). They are used in multi Vis oils. The molecule chains react to heat and uncoil to increase the vis as the temp rises.

Ha.. I need to be more thorough. VII wears out. In my head or previous conversations on here many want to run a tall viscosity with excellent cold weather conditions. However the inverse takes place and they wind up with a much thinner oil as the improver wears off. A 0 grade instead of a 30 grade.

Thank you for your input on this. I appreciate a very large nice response. All points taken from your end. I knew there was a little slop in that. My main point was the wear factor PSI rating. For drag racing the issue is cold engine lack of warm up. I see the need to run a lower grade oil do to not being up to temp.

Dealing with 1/4 mile only. And mainly because our oil ports in the engine are SMALL.

I DO agree with the 20w50. For long term racing or extreme high horsepower applications were they rebuild every pass and the engine is designed for 70 weight oil. 8000hp.

The selection of oil weight and we're it is nominally ran is what I was getting at. I really should be more thorough. I have stopped because some of the non-smart ass pride filled folks gets very mad on here when real information is expressed in detail.

Again. Thanks for your response.

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

You know... Jimdawg I wouldn't mind calling you and chatting with you about this sometime. It's a subject near and dear to my heart! Haha. A huge amount of misinformation on this subject regarding oil and it certainly could use a fresh update and publication. Especially with the new mindset of 6.7L owners that will buy ice during an ice storm.

powerstroked08 · Feb 16, 2015

Here CAT. This will probably be an interesting thread. I know I'll be following it and I don't know nearly what you do on the topic. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60654

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

psduser1 said:
Would that hold true for heui s?

I thought that was worthwhile to read! Maybe the new heui pump unicorn guy should read that...

Concerning the HEUI. There are two functions for the oil. One lubrication and two compression.

A lighter viscosity oil would definitely help a HEUI with reaction time assuming the components are up to tolerance par and not worn. That being poppets. Pistons/barrel in the pump assembly.

The concept of 15w40 is being discovered as a thing of the past(to modern thought process) However. The HEUI engines run a higher oil temperature than the common rail engines. It's not uncommon for a 7.3L working to have upwards of 230+F oil Temps. And the shear factor from a heui injector is also an issue. More so with the 6.0 than the 7.3.

Maybe that answered your question.

CATDiezel · Feb 16, 2015

powerstroked08 said:
Here CAT. This will probably be an interesting thread. I know I'll be following it and I don't know nearly what you do on the topic. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60654

Thanks. Glad you pointed me to that.

jimdawg185 · Feb 16, 2015

CATDiezel said:
You know... Jimdawg I wouldn't mind calling you and chatting with you about this sometime. It's a subject near and dear to my heart! Haha. A huge amount of misinformation on this subject regarding oil and it certainly could use a fresh update and publication. Especially with the new mindset of 6.7L owners that will buy ice during an ice storm.

This is what I do, call me anytime!
616-460-9949