Shop owners Bulletproof warranty?

Csmyj · Jun 1, 2016

Sorry for the lengthy post in advanced but just want to put all the cards on the table.

When doing a bulletproof job on a 6.0 how far do you all go as to stand behind your warranty?

Here's my situation, I called several shops asked about pricing, warranty and time frame Bc I needed my truck back within 2wks. Picked the shop told them the time frame and they said no problem should have it done within a week so I took them my truck they ordered parts that day and said that they were finishing up one truck and would be done by with it by the time my parts got there.

So I kept in touch every so often and they sent pics of progress and so on. All the parts came in besides my head gaskets so they were waiting on those, ok no problem should be there in a day or so. Well it got down to the day before I was leaving that they got the gaskets. So owner 1 said they worked all night to knock it out and would be ready tomorrow around noonish. So I contacted them the next day around that time to make sure I could head that way to get my truck and owner 2 said it was ready but while test driving it, the radiator blew and they couldn't get one till tomorrow morning which wasn't going to work. So I called around in my town found one bought and paid for it and took it to them. He installed, refilled the coolant let run and so on to check everything. All is good!

So I leave to go run errands before we have to leave that the next day. So I drove about 120miles or so and temps were running higher then I though they should be which were around 205-207 ect (200 Tstat) and eot around the same but would spike some on on a steeper grade where it put the truck under a load but would go back down. I ask owner 2 and said that's fine and sounded right with that Tstat. I was doing about 65mph or less this whole time to be easy on it, when I got to my first destination within those 120 miles I let the engine cool before leaving again.

Once cooled I started up and headed home while on the way home truck shuts off in the rain at about 10:30pm so hard to see what's going and no tools? Talk to the owner 2 again and try running it down and while doing that I notice oil all over the ground but at the time couldn't see where Bc is have to lay in oil and rain. So I get it home crawl under and first thing I see is the oil pan plug is gone. So I take a pic and send to him and he says I'll be there first thing in the morning to take care of it which he did.

So we get everything packed up and ready to head out and all that good stuff. We drive around 400 miles and stop to fuel up and restroom break. Well I pop the hood just to check around and I had spit coolant out of the degas so I sent a text to owner 2 and they said it's probably just settling and should be good. Coolant level still right around the minimum line so I whipped the coolant residue off the degas and we went on. Stop about about another 400 miles and it had spit some more so I let owner 2 know and I said well maybe it's the degas cap so I stop replaced it and got some more coolant to top it off.

By that point we were at our destination so truck wasn't driven much and no other issues. Then when returning home it did the same thing. So we talked and thought maybe it could be the Tstat so I replaced it along with the housing, hose and new cap for degas and temps went down to 190-195 and would spike at little on grades then return. Drove it back and forth to work everything seemed to be going good So thought it might have just had a air pocket in it and it worked its way out?

Well about a week or so later my ect started getting up to around 200 and hold so I asked around and decided my fan clutch went out so I ordered a 97 7.3 mechanical fan clutch kit for got it and installed it. Everything good again and things were looking good.

So now at 2 months since the bulletproof I actually had to haul a bobcat. At this point I was running custom tunes so I had switched to my tow tune on my way to pick it up. Got and took off, well the first big grade we hit my temps started to get up around 215 so I eased off and they kept going so I pulled over and they started going back down so I let it idle got out and looked and coolant everywhere!

So I sent a pic to both owners and they said bring it in will take a look at it but there's probably still just a air pocket in it. So had someone come hook up to the trailer and carry one with it and I took my truck back home and parked it until I took it to them a couple days later when I could have someone pick me up since it was over an hr drive to their shop.

Had it a couple days Bc of the holiday weekend and owner 1 called me yesterday and said there was an air pocket in it so we pressurized it and got the air out and took it on a run and it was still doing it. So he hooked up a gauges to check the pressure in the cooling system and he said it was at 17lbs. Owner 1 said it has to be the heads that are cracked but could be gaskets. So I asked when he was going to pull it apart and see? He said well I just wanted to let you know what it would cost you if it's one of those 2 things to fix. I was a little shocked and asked about the warranty that his work came with and owner 1 said it probably got to hot when the fan clutch went out, but it had been spitting coolant since I got it back? Then owner said well your temps were kinda with the Tstat you had that probably didn't help before your fan clutch went out and I said owner 2 said they were normal for the driving I was doing. Then owner 1 said well we don't know that Bc we didn't get to test drive it on the interstate before you took it and I said well owner 2 said he was on the interstate when the radiator blew and he limped it to his other buddies shop.

So basically he is saying it's my fault Bc of the fan clutch went out which never did my truck overheat, it did get to the level to be cautious and I stopped and let it cool. Then the fact that I took the truck before they so called took it on the interstate or really drive it that they didn't get to inspect it but his partner never said he needed to or would like to and I even asked if everything was good to go before I left.

So to me this doesn't seem like I need to come out of pocket to have this problem fixed when I told them numerous times about it and they didn't say bring it in immediately? Am I wrong or for feeling that way?

Any and all input is welcomed I'd like to have honest opinions before proceeding with anything.

Thanks

sootie · Jun 1, 2016

Get your attorney involved asap. Unfortunately, what you are experiencing is far too common in the diesel industry. That is why I only deal with reputable shops.

I had a shop crack a block in my six four and they did nothing for me. Thankfully, thru that ordeal, I met an excellent shop that now does all my work.

Csmyj · Jun 1, 2016

That's what I was afraid of, just want to make sure I'm not being unreasonable before going that route. Figured I'd get input from others first then call them back and try to get this settled before getting a attorney..

DEEZUZ · Jun 1, 2016

ah, sounds like you picked another one of those fly by night, $3500, flatbill facebook rip off shops...

webb06 · Jun 1, 2016

Agree with these other guys. Sounds like you got screwed.

On our 6.0 head gasket jobs we offer a one year warranty on all parts. We ask them when it happened, how it happened, if they were towing, what tune they were on and if they're towing a heavy load in a race file with no pyrometer, which has been the only time we've had comebacks, warranty is declined and they foot the bill to redo the gaskets.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Csmyj · Jun 1, 2016

I was told I have a 1 yr warranty as well. I drove this truck very easy as well if I hot rodded it or race/ pulled it and was pushing it hard then I could understand a little bit. But that wasn't the case at all. Everything I've added or done to the truck was only to get better mpg out of it.

DEEZUZ · Jun 1, 2016

I would pull my truck out of that shop right and have a 3rd party tear it down for legal reasons. documentation and all.

Bustedknuckles · Jun 1, 2016

Where you from? I work at a shop in Chambersburg PA and we offer a 5 yr warranty on 6.0 head gasket jobs. I'd say it wasnt right from day one.

Csmyj · Jun 1, 2016

I'm in Lancaster Ky just a little south of Lexington.

ultrasks700 · Jun 2, 2016

Did the shop do any sort of machining of the heads? The shop that did my HG's sends every single set of 6.0 heads to an outside machine shop to full test, and machine if nessessary, them before reassembly, they simply don't want to make the mistake of reinstalling a cracked or wrapped head

AirFishAutomotive · Jun 2, 2016

CTC DEEZUL said:
I would pull my truck out of that shop right and have a 3rd party tear it down for legal reasons. documentation and all.

a lot of shops wont get involved with that because a lot of time come to find out the customer is waiting to get reimbursed from shop a to pay shop b, and then it becomes your word agaisnt theres. Its a lose lose for the customer. Just need to pay another reputable shop to do it right and be done with it. We have fixed a lot of other shops and driveway shops but I refuse to get involved in the he said she said. Just because from past experience its always a pita to get paid. Personally id rather start over so we know exactly what parts the truck has going back together. As far as the warranty it varies shop to shop and there are certain exceptions, just like with that 5 year warranty it sounds great but im sure there are some loop holes in it. But to agree with others it doesnt sound right from the get go. You will most likely never win a court case because even when it was messed up no matter what they said to you, you kept driving it. Not saying I agree with them at all, just saying if you pay 2k in a lawyer, then turn around and pay 4k to get the truck redone, is it worth fighting over court and having a truck apart for weeks/months while your battling in court over a few thousand bucks?

Csmyj · Jun 2, 2016

They said they were and did and they were good. Now if they did I don't know?

Csmyj · Jun 2, 2016

His whole defense is my temps would be at a higher number Bc of my 200 Tstat which I asked around for people that ran the same thing and said those didn't seem out of the norm. Then Bc my fan clutch went out about a month after and got back up to the same temps of around 200-207 that was the cause and he said it was out from the day I picked it up pretty much when it first started spitting coolant but yet his partner said all the temps were good and everything operating fine when he was driving it before the radiator blew. Which they also charged me to install after I picked it up and bought it just Bc I didn't want to argue and it could've just as well happened to me 10 mins down the road or 2 days etc later. But looking at the 17psi of pressure in the system and older radiator that could be why it blew in the first place? To me you think a shops reputation would be more important then some wrench time and making more money off someone. In the end they will loose money Bc I will let it be known depending on the outcome.

DEEZUZ · Jun 2, 2016

That's the entire reason of why the first rad blew. I'm sure it was on borrowed time anyway due to age.

This thing wasn't right since day one.

It takes whole lot of bad rep to take a shop down... How Long have they been in the business and are they diesel focused?

DEEZUZ · Jun 2, 2016

I agree with the fish to a certain point. Only 2 trucks that I've 'investigated' made it to court. But it doesn't mean you can't take the word of another shop to the first one and at least try to recoup some of your money... It never hurts to have legal counsel light a fire under the shops ass as well....

Powerstroke Racer · Jun 2, 2016

Let me put this out there, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BULLET PROOFING A 6.0 or any engine for that matter, dumbest thing ever to keep getting regurgitated. Any shop that makes money using that term is ripping people off both in trust and money. Can a lot of the inherent problems be fixed? sure they can BUT that does not make one bullet proof Nor does it keep a 6.0 from having other problems that will cause a failure much less a head gasket failure. Duramax and 03-07 5.9 Cummins use the same style gasket and have no problems, 6.7 Cummins uses the same style gasket BUT is now the new 6.7 leaker. Do Cummins guys ask to be bullet proofed? of course not, sounds too dumb a term to use.

Now For arguments sake, lets look at this from both sides of the table. Customer already feels ripped off for buying a 6.0 AND then has to spend 6k or more to fix it, ya you read that right 6k, if you spent a lot less then you definitely got ripped off by an inexperienced shop. It takes TIME and money in parts to correct the problems. From a customer’s point of view they obviously are looking at it from the money perspective, from a shops point of view it has to be done right to not come back but how do you control what the customer does after they pick it up, ie: big tune and foot to the floor everywhere they go and then tow a heavy trailer but hey I have a warranty

, fan goes out but keeps on driving it because they can’t afford to replace it, Head has an internal crack after the fact from the extra torque and heat cycling, now who’s fault is that ? The shop that did the work, the machine shop that did the heads, International for making a cheap casting???? But hey it’s Bullet proofed so shop should eat it right, no I don’t think so. Seems the mentality of the average 6.0 owner is that of entitlement and not willing to except responsibly for a bad choice in a truck purchase.

Common practice is to place a straight edge on the block, if it looks good clean the surface install gaskets and ARPs and presto we are now bullet proofed but what did the shop actually do here? Nothing but add some extra clamping force, so HOW does that now magically make it bullet proof? Simple answer is NO it did not because the root cause of the problem was only halfway addressed when the heads got a new flat machined surface. The other half never got fixed because they either did not see the problem or know how to fix the problem, even then when done properly you still have not bullet proofed anything and a gasket can still be blown due to other causes unrelated to installing new gaskets and head studs. So ask yourself again where does the responsibility fall. There is no simple answer to that question as a lot of variables come into play. No doubt there are reputable shops that try their best and have the best intentions but fall short of customer expectations. Best thing I have learned is to educate the customer and THEN if customer agrees and understands how it all works we will proceed with the job if not we turn them away as it inevitably is a no win situation for both parties involved.

Below is an example of the block surface problem

This is how it should be after hand lapping the block

Luke@MillerPerformance · Jun 2, 2016

Powerstroke Racer said:
Let me put this out there, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BULLET PROOFING A 6.0 or any engine for that matter, dumbest thing ever to keep getting regurgitated. Any shop that makes money using that term is ripping people off both in trust and money. Can a lot of the inherent problems be fixed? sure they can BUT that does not make one bullet proof Nor does it keep a 6.0 from having other problems that will cause a failure much less a head gasket failure. Duramax and 03-07 5.9 Cummins use the same style gasket and have no problems, 6.7 Cummins uses the same style gasket BUT is now the new 6.7 leaker. Do Cummins guys ask to be bullet proofed? of course not, sounds too dumb a term to use.

Now For arguments sake, lets look at this from both sides of the table. Customer already feels ripped off for buying a 6.0 AND then has to spend 6k or more to fix it, ya you read that right 6k, if you spent a lot less then you definitely got ripped off by an inexperienced shop. It takes TIME and money in parts to correct the problems. From a customer’s point of view they obviously are looking at it from the money perspective, from a shops point of view it has to be done right to not come back but how do you control what the customer does after they pick it up, ie: big tune and foot to the floor everywhere they go and then tow a heavy trailer but hey I have a warranty , fan goes out but keeps on driving it because they can’t afford to replace it, Head has an internal crack after the fact from the extra torque and heat cycling, now who’s fault is that ? The shop that did the work, the machine shop that did the heads, International for making a cheap casting???? But hey it’s Bullet proofed so shop should eat it right, no I don’t think so. Seems the mentality of the average 6.0 owner is that of entitlement and not willing to except responsibly for a bad choice in a truck purchase.

Common practice is to place a straight edge on the block, if it looks good clean the surface install gaskets and ARPs and presto we are now bullet proofed but what did the shop actually do here? Nothing but add some extra clamping force, so HOW does that now magically make it bullet proof? Simple answer is NO it did not because the root cause of the problem was only halfway addressed when the heads got a new flat machined surface. The other half never got fixed because they either did not see the problem or know how to fix the problem, even then when done properly you still have not bullet proofed anything and a gasket can still be blown due to other causes unrelated to installing new gaskets and head studs. So ask yourself again where does the responsibility fall. There is no simple answer to that question as a lot of variables come into play. No doubt there are reputable shops that try their best and have the best intentions but fall short of customer expectations. Best thing I have learned is to educate the customer and THEN if customer agrees and understands how it all works we will proceed with the job if not we turn them away as it inevitably is a no win situation for both parties involved.

Below is an example of the block surface problem

This is how it should be after hand lapping the block

I'll add to this:

If you paid under $6000 it wasn't even close to doing headgaskets on a 6.0 correctly. At least half of the trucks we get in for headgaskets have cracked heads. The bill now jumps to 8K. If the heads are okay, it still costs about $1000 to have them gone through correctly. At 100K miles, almost all of them need at least .006" of machining to be flat, valve job, valve stems ground to correct installed height, new valve guides, and at least a few valves. Additionally, these trucks need new lifters installed at the same time, which requires back cover removal.

It is now our policy when someone comes in asking for a "bulletproof", we explain that there is no such thing but we can fix most of the common problems with a 6.0. We quote them for a factory Ford shortblock installed with A1 studs and all Ford gaskets and seals. We also require new injectors to be installed for our warranty.

DEEZUZ · Jun 2, 2016

So glad I'm not the only one here with $6k and up estimates. We've done everything we could do to keep the job down besides use chea parts. We now have 3 estimates. One for JUST headgaskets, another add oil cooler, and another add oil and egr cooler.

When people call in and ask for a quote, we now have a weapon to combat the fly by night Flatbill shops... Even at that, by using factory parts, we still can't get as low as the $3500 I hear about all the time. The absolute lowest we can go is $4700ish and that's if the heads aren't cracked, no egr/oil cooler...

Csmyj · Jun 2, 2016

All very valid points and I agree that it's really hard to determine that and no motor is bulletproofed(just what everyone calls it or ford oem solution kit). My thing is that I thought I saw issues and questioned them and got the answer things looked ok probably air pocket no big deal or get it in asap. Yes my fan went out and I parked it and until I then got what I needed to fix it. Integrity is something that has been instilled in me and I told them about the fan but didn't have too. But yet now that's the problem at hand that caused this after a month of it spitting coolant? I'm not trying to screw anyone the same as I don't want to be screwed but when I let them know that I have concerns and withing 2 months my truck is down and now I have no warranty what so ever and they will charge me no matter what it is Bc they assume it was Bc of the fan going out.