Another T4 thread

[V-Ref]

Impressive math Tarm. Insightful correlation to the 7.3 fuel only hp limitations as imposed by the H in HEUI.

But why go to all the effort to redesign/engineer a fuel/oil system when a $1k nitrous system will create enough power for the modular 7.3 block mod?

I heard Trump is looking to nominate Nate @ Unlimited to lead the Department of Homeland Horsepower & Torque.

 

[smokinstroker92]

Tarm thank you for showing these guys the math and calculations necessary to truly understand these injectors and injection systems. (I would never write all that out)
Fwiw track times put my truck over 1000hp on fuel. I was to the end of my oil capabilities with a gen 3 and the injectors I was running. The injectors are there just have to fix the remaining flaws around them.
It doesn't cost 100k to build either. Turbo selection is huge of you want to make fuel only numbers. I have much less than half that in my motor and it was very streetable. It made a few 4 hours road trips to prove my point

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[smokinstroker92]

Cgi would be awesome regardless of what injection system you use. Couple that with a bed plate and good rods and you wouldn't have to pull so much damn fuel down low. You wouldn't need to rev it to the moon either to build the power Tarm is talking about.

I have a ludite view on things these days and prefer simpler solutions to get to the same end results. The bosch h pump would be sweet and custom injectors would be cheaper to manufacture and replace as they would be mechanical.

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Cgi blocks are not all they are cracked up to be. Ask Ben Miller how they split just like a factory block.

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[superpsd]

What power levels was he at with the CGI block? Pulling or drag truck I do not know who that is?

 

[gwunter]

What power levels was he at with the CGI block? Pulling or drag truck I do not know who that is?

Blasphemy!! Doesn't know who Ben miller is, lol. He was one of the original mechanical powerstroke truck pullers. Search double overtime.

 

[TARM]

Vref

good to hear from you!!

The reason is NOS is a WOT only and there are plenty of risks. The main reason though is if you can get 400 cc injected with good quality in the pw window that gets you 1k rwhp if you then added nos you would be getting the same 400 - 500hp gain from there. If you can dump the fuel up top that gets you 1; say at 4500 rpm so tq will be able to stay in the 1200ftlb range thus adding the Nos will bring you back up to the tq levels we se now at 1k on Nos but now that 400 plus high in hp.

There is also drivablity as the same 1k injector can also be a dd.

But you are correct if the goal is soley to make 1; nos is the easy path. The other issue though is competition which would be the main purchasers. pulling so no nos.

 

[superpsd]

Blasphemy!! Doesn't know who Ben miller is, lol. He was one of the original mechanical powerstroke truck pullers. Search double overtime.

I was not aware of the name but I am well aware of what Double Overtime means. I thought I had read he was running a full filled stock block and his power levels are like beyond double the 1K goal being talked about correct?

 

[TARM]

Vref

good to hear from you!!

The reason is NOS is a WOT only and there are plenty of risks. The main reason though is if you can get 400 cc injected with good quality in the pw window that gets you 1k rwhp if you then added nos you would be getting the same 400 - 500hp gain from there. If you can dump the fuel up top that gets you 1; say at 4500 rpm so tq will be able to stay in the 1200ftlb range thus adding the Nos will bring you back up to the tq levels we se now at 1k on Nos but now that 400 plus high in hp.

There is also drivablity as the same 1k injector can also be a dd.

But you are correct if the goal is soley to make 1; nos is the easy path. The other issue though is competition which would be the main purchasers. pulling so no nos.

 

[TARM]

Tarm thank you for showing these guys the math and calculations necessary to truly understand these injectors and injection systems. (I would never write all that out)
Fwiw track times put my truck over 1000hp on fuel. I was to the end of my oil capabilities with a gen 3 and the injectors I was running. The injectors are there just have to fix the remaining flaws around them.
It doesn't cost 100k to build either. Turbo selection is huge of you want to make fuel only numbers. I have much less than half that in my motor and it was very streetable. It made a few 4 hours road trips to prove my point

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you are coreect on air as thats the other half. To be honest oj the HP the real pro are looking at engine dynos as it removes all the variables. What happens if I start to remove resistance from the reast of the system. I would say a solid 1200 on the engine dyno would prove out the goal.

The hp factors I uaed were based on the typical ppump per cc estimates 2.3-2.5 per cc. But CR are 3hp/cc. most 7.3 have fit in that range but as you get the fuel higher up in the bane, improve flow with cams, head porting work, roller rocker lifter etc it would move that ratio up. Thus you can make more on the same oil as its getting more out of the fuel.

 

[The Brad]

Assuming the air is available, the only difference in HP vs. CC of fuel is in the ability to accurately deliver and atomize the fuel? Seems to be a good argument for common rail conversion. I'll never make more power than a stock bottom end can handle, but it would be nice to get rid of the quirks that come with non stock tuning and injectors.

 

[TARM]

well first is fuel in time but fuel in time usually means better atomization so its associated.

You can always get pumps that can displace more fuel but you can only remove so much of the restrictions in the injector so there will always be a drop off between rail pressure and nozzle in CR. That is where the upper ceiling of power. This is also based on a nozzle only being able to have up to a certain size orifice/s. So combine that with 35K rail pressure and that is the upper limit for CR. You do eventually reach the max effeincey of the cubic inchs of the engine. You can only eventually stuff so much air in a given space and then it takes more space i.e CI

With the 7.3 you are looking at my guess would be around 15K for a conversion as its low production and it needs custom harness controller front cover,pump/s, mounts,injectors , rail piping etc.


Early on I had hoped there would have been a way to adapt the 6.0 spool valve injectors to our heads and FCIM. Our HPOPS would have works fine. That would have easily gotten us well into the 4 digit power range.

But back to the 7.3 injector. If you decrease the B ratio that get you using less oil for every cc of fuel. To get even more out of every cc of fuel and make up for the drop in intensifier ratio change out the solenoid and poppet spring to allow it to hold a much higher ICP say 4-5K without floating. Make some changes to the poppet and channels to allow the oil in and out faster. Now you have pressures in the range of 6:1 but using oil volume at 4:1 or even 3:1 and the oil can move in and out faster. Thats the broad strokes of some changes.




SmokinStroker62,

What is your exact setup if you do not mind openly posting?


Even if you do not make 1000RWHP on a dyno you have to be well over 800 to have trap speeds to indicate you are. That on fuel only is still something that is rarely seen posted about on the 7.3 on just fuel.

I would enjoy speaking to you about your experiences with different cam specs as well I think that combined with proper head porting adds up to a nice chunk of power output vs not.

You can see this when you see how close the top fuel only that have been reported in the past without these kinds of changes are to say a basic gt4294@ a fast set of 200% injectors. Its less than 100 hp. This shows you reaching restitution in other areas than even fuel or supplied air but in it actual path to and from the combustion chamber which is were cams and head work and the like come in. Doing things also to reduce as much friction as possible frees up even some more.

 

[TARM]

CGI blocks are not **** but they also have no coolant passages so that is not going to work well if you want to use it on the street.
k
AS for Ben splitting one I do not think any filled stock block is going to handle 3K ftlb tq either as thats what 30Mpa or close to 5K psi cylinder pressure. They are done at 1/3 less easy.

 

[superpsd]

Looked as if the Hypermax CGI block does have coolant passages in the pictures? Heavy price which puts it out of reach for most anyways. As for common rail I think Swamps maybe setup like two 7.3s with common rail not sure exactly. The one injection setup was for sale for 20K a while back. Common rail does have some downsides vs heui. Common rail injectors and pumps have much tighter tolerances which need cleaner fuel and are more prone to damage due to contamination. Also if a heui poppet gets stuck open somehow I think you would be OK and I don't think after messing with these injectors there is really any chance of that happening unless somehow the solenoid was stuck energized. If a common rail injector gets stuck open which does happen say goodbye to the engine. Piezo injectors also do not seem to last as long as a heui stick due to fuel erosion and the extremely high speeds these sticks actuate at multiple times per injection event. Also much higher voltages of the Piezo style injector upward around 250V.


I still think it would be cool to use the newer style solenoid stuff that is coming out to CR a 7.3 and maybe belt drive a hpfp. Unsure if that would work as I know that some of these hpfps need to be timed due to pulsation? Fire it with 7.3 electronics as on a performance setup you don't need the multiple events.

 

[JDelaney]

Anybody consider engineering a 4V cylinder head? Seems there is enough fuel available, just lacking a little air.

 

[Powerstroker7.3]

The thing to do would be just increase the valve size. It would be cheaper then engineering a whole new head


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[Countrycar]

My truck runs good, if I stay in the throttle. What I'm tired of is the truck shifting gears, dropping to a lower RPM & as soon as you give it any throttle I shut the road down with smoke.

I will say I've ran different tunes that smoked way less.

What I'm looking for is something to spool sooner than the 38R that will also clean the smoke up better.

I talked to Matt @ Irate yesterday & am leaning towards a S369SXE.

Where you at with your Turbo issues? What all do you have done to your engine that your thinking of going to the S369sxe?

 

[Fall Guy]

Where you at with your Turbo issues? What all do you have done to your engine that your thinking of going to the S369sxe?

Nowhere as of right now. I'm down a person at work in the office so I've been slammed with that along with a almost complete house remodel that has been a nightmare!

Mods are as follows-250/100's, Honey Badger, 38R, Bellowed Ceramic Coated Up-Pipes, Built Trans, CFM+ Intake, AFE Stage 2 Intake, ARP Head Studs, Valve Springs/Pushrods, FASS System, Regulated Return, Fluidampr. There are some other small items that I'm forgetting about that I cant remember. Currently I'm running DI Performance Tunes, was running & still have Matt's Tunes that I will probably go back too.

I probably wont do anything with this until after Christmas.

As of right now I have the following checklist:

1. Fix some very minor oil leaks

2. Figure out where the sound is coming from on my steering system since installing the PSC Hydro Assist (Love the setup but it sounds like i have a whine coming from the Ram on initial warm-up).

3. Replace my Fass system with Dual Stock Pumps (tired of the constant whine).

4. Replace the MBRP muffler with something not so loud.

5. Address the turbo complaints that I have!

 

[The Brad]

If you're worried about smoke, I'm not sure a 369 will spool fast enough for you with 100% nozzles. Mikeeg02 is running a 366/74/1.0 with 238/100s and is happy, with a manual trans.

 

[Countrycar]

Nowhere as of right now. I'm down a person at work in the office so I've been slammed with that along with a almost complete house remodel that has been a nightmare!

Mods are as follows-250/100's, Honey Badger, 38R, Bellowed Ceramic Coated Up-Pipes, Built Trans, CFM+ Intake, AFE Stage 2 Intake, ARP Head Studs, Valve Springs/Pushrods, FASS System, Regulated Return, Fluidampr. There are some other small items that I'm forgetting about that I cant remember. Currently I'm running DI Performance Tunes, was running & still have Matt's Tunes that I will probably go back too.

I probably wont do anything with this until after Christmas.

As of right now I have the following checklist:

1. Fix some very minor oil leaks

2. Figure out where the sound is coming from on my steering system since installing the PSC Hydro Assist (Love the setup but it sounds like i have a whine coming from the Ram on initial warm-up).

**Sounds like you have some air in the system. I have the system from (PSC) also, minus the ram, and with a Red head box. I love it. It replaces the entire factory system. Huge difference over factory.

3. Replace my Fass system with Dual Stock Pumps (tired of the constant whine).

**I have a Fass also, it is loud..

4. Replace the MBRP muffler with something not so loud.

5. Address the turbo complaints that I have!

**If you haven't already, pressurize your system, check for leaks. I thought my system was tight, until I pressurized it. I found a leak at the Y pipe, right around the bung where my boost gauge ties in. Also, at the Map line at both ends. I had to put worm clamps on it to keep it from leaking. And of course check the typical areas for leaks. Pressurize it and hit it with soapy water. I also had to replace all the rubber connectors on the red and green vac lines. They were split, and or deteriorated. If your having egt issues and your WG is tightened down, try this. Maybe this will help clear up some of your issues.
At the suggestion of Mikee,
I backed off my waste gate some, and it helped to bring down my egt's. When it comes to the 38r everyone says to tighten it all the way down. In my case it made for a hot running rig. I dropped about 150+ degrees just backing it off 2 turns.

Also, I rode in Brad's truck a couple of weeks ago, and I gotta say, I was very very impressed. I'm not sure which route/Turbo I'm going with just yet because I'm waiting to hear back from KCTurbo's. But after riding in Brads truck and seeing how well his Sxe performs, I wouldn't hesitate to put one on my truck. And yeah Mikee has a very similar build with the 366sxe and he loves it.. Hope you get it all figured out.

 

[TyCorr]

If you're worried about smoke, I'm not sure a 369 will spool fast enough for you with 100% nozzles. Mikeeg02 is running a 366/74/1.0 with 238/100s and is happy, with a manual trans.

You very well could be right. I would probably errr on the side of the 66 for a hundo nozzle.