Blue smoke on cold start...

[Swaan]

Mine with my 175/80 pis injectors and matts tuning still does this when cold.
I've tryed everything.

I still think it's retarded injection timing at idle.

Engine is healthy. I don't know.

 

[firehunter]

Sorry to bring this back alive, but it's the most relevant thread I can find on any site about my exact issue. Running the tunes from GearHead, and have the exact same issue. As the temps get colder, it's getting to a point where my neighbors are getting pissed. I fill three or four yards with the white/grey/blue-ish smoke in the morning.


Did it ever since I put the stage 1s in. I've been thru everything. New glow plugs, new IPR, cleaned back-pressure tube, new CPS (black one from Ford), new GPCM, new turbo o-rings. Compression numbers were all excellent. 3100 PSI HPOP at WOT. Always starts right up at any temp.


OP is still having issues or were you able to get it tuned out?

Here's my vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGqK6cwGgxE&feature=youtu.be

Smoke doesn't look bad here, but it was only 45 degrees out. Getting much worse with cooler temps.

Yes, I still have the smoke although a little more than what you have in the video. Matt (at Gearhead) has spent a lot of time with me trying different tuning and even swapped me out a set of injectors just to rule them out - and they tested good. I have since replaced GP's and GPR multiple times and now have an Adrenaline HPOP in there as well. New turbo o-rings as well when I added the WW2.

I am pretty much at the end of my resources other than spending the $$ and time for AE unless someone wants to offer that up! imp:

 

[maplemale]

I am pretty much at the end of my resources other than spending the $$ and time for AE unless someone wants to offer that up! imp:

Well, I guess I know why Matt hasn't gotten back to me. Must still be trying to work it out with others and probably has no solution for me anyway.


AE didn't help me in this case. All tests were good. GP tests are good, injector tests are good, cylinder contribution tests good. No codes at all. I am sitting at 680 - 700 RPMs at idle. 12 - 13 PSI EBP. I can tell you via AE exactly what oil temperature the smoke stops at:

Oil Temp: 71 Degrees (ambient 68)
Smooook!!!

Oil Temp: 100 Degrees
20% - 30% less smoke.

Oil Temp: 110 Degrees
60% - 70% less smoke.

Oil Temp: 120 Degrees
Smoke barely noticeable at all, keen vision required!

Oil Temp: 130 Degrees
Smoke completely gone.


I thought for a while: what if it's specific cylinder(s) causing the issue? So, I made a cylinder cut-out-box. That was fun! I could turn off any one cylinder / no difference. I could turn off two across from each other (7,8 then 6 and 5 etc.). No difference. I could turn them off like 6,8 then 7,5 etc. Or, turn off all one side. If anything, any combination of cylinders being shut off makes it smoke worse. lol


Anyway, I really like the gearhead tunes (once it's warmed up). But, I'm wondering if I should try another tune and just buy the economy to see if maybe it's still a timing issue. I don't know. I'm not out of resources yet, just out of ideas.

 

[firehunter]

Sounds like you are able to give him more feed back than I ever was. I haven't had any dealings directly with Matt since last spring. I always have to go through Larz or Ken and see what happens after that. I really can't complain they have gone to some lengths to help, just nothing has changed. I can tell you I changed injectors and tuners at the same time and my previous injector/tuner combination did NOT haze at all.

Go forth and make good things happen!

 

[maplemale]

I can tell you I changed injectors and tuners at the same time and my previous injector/tuner combination did NOT haze at all.

Go forth and make good things happen!

Were your sticks splits or singles when you were on previous tune/injectors?

 

[firehunter]

Splits. AD's. I have considered going back to AD's just for this reason. The power is nice, great for towing, but I don't need the extra oomph to move what I need moved - pains me to say. I am one of those guys that would like to get this right and not have to do any work to the engine except oil changes for the next 100K miles.

 

[maplemale]

injectors likely

So... just called Swamps and started talking about getting a single tune to see if their's causes the same issue. Was told not to waste my time and here's why:


I removed the hydra chip completely and it still smoked. According to Swamps, it should not smoke just because you have a stock PCM running the split shots. He said without a doubt / 99% certainty I have either:

a. A bad injector
b. Didn't seat some injectors correctly.

When I seated my injectors I did hit them with a rubber mallet. But, I wasn't too rough. Was afraid I'd crack the porcelain tops. Was just corrected on that and told to hit them like I'm pounding in a 2x4. You should feel each one seat. Then, run a straight edge ac cross them. I've driven 10k miles since those injectors were installed. Maybe I didn't seat one correctly? But, it's probably got a cracked nozzle by now. :cursing:

It's possible a nozzle was cracked when I bought them. :shrug: Guess I'll have to put a straight edge on them before taking them out and see if one isn't seated. I don't want to ask for a free injector if the nozzle is cracked just cause I didn't seat it right. I guess if they are all seated well, i'll take them out one by one and check for issues like a carbon build up.

 

[firehunter]

I don't know what to think about this. Like I mentioned, the vendor swapped me injectors with different sized nozzles to see if that was an issue. It was reported to me that the first set of injectors that went back to the vendor checked out perfectly normal - even the nozzles. The current set of injectors do they exact same things as the previous set, and as you describe.

Now...evidently I do have an issue with the seating of the injectors although I hit them just like you did. I installed two sets of single shots and had one injector come loose and burn the copper and lower o-ring. http://powerstrokearmy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55848 In between those two sets of injectors I installed a set of reman AD's in the wife's 7.3 using the same tools and techniques, no hazing ever, run perfectly in all temps and conditions. Makes me think. No real conclusions, just think about it.

 

[Barnbuilder]

I put a set of AC injectors in and had No Limit reburn my chip and this thing smokes the entire neighborhood out. Never did it before on ADs. And whatever you do don't walk through the smoke because you will reek the rest of the day.

 

[maplemale]

Pulled the valve covers and took a look at injectors. Didn't have time to drain the oil and fuel rails and pull the injectors, was just checking out level. Both cylinders (3,4) in the same position on both sides looked like they were maybe 1/2 centimeter too high. You can see me barely able to tap the metal level by rocking it over the number 3 cylinder. Maybe the top of my injector caps are just higher on those two? Or slightly misshapen? I don't know... I also beat the crap out of them with the rubber and re-torqued the bolts. No difference. Still rocked ever so slightly as seen in the video:

Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9L7NI6735E


Also, explained the whole situation to a reputable 7.3 shop in town. We talked for quite some time and they were adamant I must have bade valve seals and whoever told me that the injectors not seated correctly was the problem didn't know what they were talking about. He was quite sure I'd see a drivability issue and oil/coolant mix. Not that I 100% believed him. I don't see how this could be the case when I didn't have this problem before the stage 1 injectors and immediately afterwards it shows up.

 

[Swaan]

Are you positive you got all the old copper washers out of the injector sleeves before putting the new injectors in.
Seems like that would be perfect highth for a copper washer

 

[TyCorr]

All obs trucks ive ever seen smoked like a sack of garbage in cold weather.

Superdutys dont but typically people delete the AIH as a "mod" and then wonder why it smokes like a fuggin bitsh on cold starts. For the record, ad's will.smoke.like that too on a truck with deleted air intake heater. Reroute the ccv and it seems to make the issue even worse.

I just live with it. I start the truck, go back in the house, gather my things for the day, then drive right off.

 

[maplemale]

Are you positive you got all the old copper washers out of the injector sleeves before putting the new injectors in.
Seems like that would be perfect highth for a copper washer

100% positive. I cleaned each injector cup with a soft lint free rag and brake cleaner. Shined a flashlight down each one to verify it was perfectly clean and had nothing left in it. Also counted all the copper rings from the old injectors.

 

[maplemale]

Update: Well... I've pretty much been ignoring this. Though at about 35 - 40 degrees the smoke is about 5 times worse than my video. But, now two days ago at about 30 degrees (had been down in the 10s that night), she won't start. Tried to start her 4 times. No go. Lots of white smoke the last time and one romp then dies. I gave up for fear I was going to hurt something.

:wtf:

The oil has less than 1k miles on it (DELO 400 15w40). The fuel filter has about 5k miles. New GPCM. New GPs. I'm insanely busy right now and didn't have time to omh out the GPs at the harness. So, I bit the bullet and am paying a local shop to do it. Still waiting to hear back, should know tomorrow. Maybe it's VCHs? No idea...

Two more thoughts and possible clues or possibly nothing:

1: I do get what seems like wet stacking when in town. That just part of having slightly bigger injectors or maybe point to tuning issues? Basically, when I'm just driving around easy up to about 40 mph with no hard take offs (RPMs always below 2k) I notice no smoke or anything. But, the first time I take off like a bat out of h3ll, it will fill a 4 lane road with grey smoke for the first 200 feet. Then, clears up and wont' do it again unless i'm idling a lot in between take-offs. It's very much like I'm building up excess fuel from idling and then burning it all up at about 2800 RPMs.

2: Check out my emissions results from before Stage 1s and after Stage 1s. Should they be this much worse?
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f24/emissions-testing-denver-482650/

Going from 5% at 40MPH to 21%? All of this was in Matt's economy tune. Is that expected with stage 1s and this type of tuning, or maybe this is point to possible clues? Maybe all this is tuning. Seems like a huge opacity increase for just stage 1s.

 

[mandkole]

Stage 1s with stock nozzles are basically stock until you commanding PW. If you run loaded dyno tests with some tuning, you'll get a little more opacity. Nothing surprising there..

If you don't get any negative results from the glowplug system checks, need to verify the HP oil performance. Are you building ICP during cranking? Injectors that piss fuel due to poor ICP will smoke and you need 500 psi to start the motor.

How is the rest of the motor? does it run good? is there a compression issue?

 

[maplemale]

Stage 1s with stock nozzles are basically stock until you commanding PW. If you run loaded dyno tests with some tuning, you'll get a little more opacity. Nothing surprising there..

Good to know on the opacity. I wasn't sure how much of an increase is normal. I'm sure Matt could get it lower if I asked him, but as long as it passes I don't care.


No negative results from glow plug tests. I was expecting/hoping their would be. :cursing: All ohm out correctly, GPCM is working correctly, all getting the correct voltage etc. Was able to start the truck at 15 degrees with no issues. So, that starting issue is random and maybe unrelated. The truck runs well otherwise, but I'll give you some more bladeebla below. Sorry for long post. Going to be thorough here.


Compression Numbers about 10k miles ago:

#2: 350 (406 - altitude adjusted)
#4: 340 (395)
#6: 350 (406)
#8: 350 (406)

#1: 340 (395)
#3: 335 (389)
#5: 335 (389)
#7: 330 (383)

PS: I have zero blow by.


I'm going to check the cranking ICP when I fire her up tonight. Here's what I know from memory: Idle at 600 RPMs, the ICP is about 480PSI. WOT is about 3100 PSI. The Duty Cycle idling is always right at 10.9% and never over 40% at WOT. The HPOP was actually rebuilt 30k miles ago according to the Oasis report.


Some things I've always thought were odd but others find normal: :blah:

1. My boost gauge reads a vacuum at idle. About 0.8 vacuum. Always thought this was weird.

2. Once it's warmed up, my injector pulse width changes at idle from about 1750 - 1850 in rhythm as does the idle. Idle sounds smooth, but is definitely bouncing up and down maybe 50 - 75 RPMs every 2-3 seconds. Lots of people told me this is normal in the Excursion / theirs does it too. :shrug:

3. When I'm slowing down from about 40 MPH coming to a stop (foot on the brake), she sounds like a 72 Chevelle with a big cam. Injector pulse will bounce between 1600 and 600 over and over again until I'm almost at a stop, then smooths out. I've asked Larz about this, he says it's normal with my tunes and the truck is searching for the right fuel. You can hear it. Literally sounds like you have an oversize cam or something.

4. My normal idle is about 600 RPMs when first starting the truck. Unless of course it's cold. Then, after a minute or two it automatically increases as it should. However, after I've been driving around, especially if I've been driving a bit hard, the idle will be 780 - 800. It won't go back to 600 until I restart.

Those are all the weird things I've ever noticed, all of which people have told me are nothing. Other than being hard to start, and cold smoking like a freight train, she runs like a dream.

 

[Northwoods2002]

Going out on a limb here, but whats your fuel pressure? My 7.3 did this and when I rebuilt the fuel bowl I found the seal around the FPR valve was garbage not allowing proper fuel pressure to the heads. Rebuilt bowl and bingo, smoke gone...

 

[firehunter]

I haven't had a mechanical fuel pressure gauge on mine. I am using the "middle " spring that comes with the FRx which is supposed to yield 61-65 psi.

I am thinking hard about injector torque and "re-torque". I had one come loose while pulling a grade and burnt up the copper and lower o-ring but I was able to shut it off before any other damage was done. After re-ringing the one injector I checked the torque on the rest on that bank and they were right at the number (120 in/lb) but no more. After reading this from SWAMPS...

You cannot damage the injector by over tightening the bolts, but you can seriously damage both the injector and the engine if the injector is not securely bolted
down because raw fuel will leak into the cylinder.

...I decided to put a quarter turn on all the bolts anyway. I only had the one valve cover off so I only did that side. I did the other side (bank) today, same results. All were at torque spec, went ahead and put another quarter turn on them. Started noticeably more crisp but I wont have a cold start on it until tomorrow.

Got me to thinking...when the engine/cylinder temps warm up and the various metals expand at different rates, does the injector torque get tighter, looser, or stay the same? I ask because my "loose" injector didn't show up until the engine was pushed hard up a long grade for several minutes meaning it was the absolute warmest it had ever been since this injector install. All temps (oil/water/EGT) were perfectly normal.

More curiosities. Inquiring minds want to know... :thumbsup:

 

[mandkole]

Once the injectors are correctly installed and torqued, they arent loosening. From another thread, I always forget that these nuggets are available...lots of discussions on cold start smoke.

http://swampsdiesel.com/files/7.3LInjectorDiagnostic.pdf

 

[Bustedknuckles]

Update: Well... I've pretty much been ignoring this. Though at about 35 - 40 degrees the smoke is about 5 times worse than my video. But, now two days ago at about 30 degrees (had been down in the 10s that night), she won't start. Tried to start her 4 times. No go. Lots of white smoke the last time and one romp then dies. I gave up for fear I was going to hurt something.

:wtf:

The oil has less than 1k miles on it (DELO 400 15w40). The fuel filter has about 5k miles. New GPCM. New GPs. I'm insanely busy right now and didn't have time to omh out the GPs at the harness. So, I bit the bullet and am paying a local shop to do it. Still waiting to hear back, should know tomorrow. Maybe it's VCHs? No idea...

Two more thoughts and possible clues or possibly nothing:

1: I do get what seems like wet stacking when in town. That just part of having slightly bigger injectors or maybe point to tuning issues? Basically, when I'm just driving around easy up to about 40 mph with no hard take offs (RPMs always below 2k) I notice no smoke or anything. But, the first time I take off like a bat out of h3ll, it will fill a 4 lane road with grey smoke for the first 200 feet. Then, clears up and wont' do it again unless i'm idling a lot in between take-offs. It's very much like I'm building up excess fuel from idling and then burning it all up at about 2800 RPMs.

2: Check out my emissions results from before Stage 1s and after Stage 1s. Should they be this much worse?
http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f24/emissions-testing-denver-482650/

Going from 5% at 40MPH to 21%? All of this was in Matt's economy tune. Is that expected with stage 1s and this type of tuning, or maybe this is point to possible clues? Maybe all this is tuning. Seems like a huge opacity increase for just stage 1s.

Every issue you are describing is exactly what is happening with my dads truck with gearhead tunes and full force stage 1 injectors. He is so sick of it he called me today and is ready to go back to stock. His workers were in it the other day with high idle on and then when they drove away it poured white smoke. Always smokes like crazy on start up and has a rough idle. All injectors tested good, fuel pressure is good, compression is good, new swamps IDM etc etc!