Don't like Egt's after build

[sootie]

you are going to need to add a pump and turbos regardless. i would add air at this point as it will make it run cleaner, cooler and make a marginal increase in power.

 

[StrokiNDieseL]

you are going to need to add a pump and turbos regardless. i would add air at this point as it will make it run cleaner, cooler and make a marginal increase in power.

I know my pumps limited either way, hell I'm really not racing it. I've just seen egts rise & was like WFT but didn't think of how hot fuel running on these things.

Once ready I'd like to address both air/fuel together is my hopes..

 

[Charles]

I know my pumps limited either way, hell I'm really not racing it. I've just seen egts rise & was like WFT but didn't think of how hot fuel running on these things.

Once ready I'd like to address both air/fuel together is my hopes..

Dial pulsewidth back and have the truck dialed for the current setup now without buying a single thing you don't already have...

That was my whole point anyway. Money isn't required to fix your problem. Turn the program back to stock and there's a chance your egt problem would vaporize in thin air. Truck would probably drive like junk and be super over touchy because the low power and off-idle fueling would be too harsh, but if the stock file has less pw you could instantly see the change to egt. And it would NOT make stock power!

More specifically, you need the ratio of rail pressure to pw to increase. For a given rail you need less pw. Right now you are "under the curve" where the program is calling for too much pw for a given rail. No matter what you do with the pedal the ratio is always wrong. Ask for more rail with your foot and you also get too much pw right along with it. Truck's always hot and doggy.

Drop the pw and the truck will crispen up, egt will drop and the rail will naturally rise on the top end too. All of a sudden your pump will be fine.

In other words, unless the power output is lower than you want, just fix the state of tune.

I think the main issue is that tuning the 6.4 is uncommon and you guys just run a bunch of canned crap and swap parts around until it runs decent.

I can't think of any other reason not to simply cut some pw and give the poor truck a break. So many posts for such a straight-forward issue. Surely somebody knows how to shallow up a fuel injection pulsewidth map!

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

The point is what's the point in having the nozzles if they are dialed way back? Just as you're saying smaller PW will cure it so will more air and not only that it will make more sense given the nozzles are there. Build upon what you have don't go backwards. If dialing the PW back to stock like tuning is the solution then pull the nozzles off because you're treading water.

 

[97stoker350]

You my friend have a thick skull. If a tune fixes the problem FOR NOW then why not do that until turbos can be bought??!!

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

You my friend have a thick skull. If a tune fixes the problem FOR NOW then why not do that until turbos can be bought??!!

Why halfass it? WTF us so hard about that? WTF does your simpleton ass not get about that?

 

[97stoker350]

All in saying is I'd rather make a tune change than a nozzel change. Smarter not harder. Atleaat that's what they teach you in engineering school...

 

[Charles]

The point is what's the point in having the nozzles if they are dialed way back? Just as you're saying smaller PW will cure it so will more air and not only that it will make more sense given the nozzles are there. Build upon what you have don't go backwards. If dialing the PW back to stock like tuning is the solution then pull the nozzles off because you're treading water.

One last time and I promise I will not waste any more bandwidth.

You seem incapable of understanding that reducing pulsewidth on a larger nozzle does NOT produce the SAME power! A larger nozzle can make MORE power run COOLER and have LESS smoke while using NO MORE pump!

This is because it injects the SAME amount of fuel much QUICKER...

Fuel quantity determines your pump demand and subsequently your rail sustained. However, injection DURATION determines the efficiency of that burn, all else constant.

A larger nozzle allows you to run the SAME quantity, with better injection window timing. And by dumping the excess and DETRIMENTAL pulsewidth on the end, you would simultaneously stop running his single pump into the ground, regain a proper rail to pw ratio possibly make even more power than he's making now if rail's dropping horribly, or worse case only lose a bit of power compared to where he's at now while bringing EGT right in check, costing nothing aside from some time on a keyboard and requiring no work done to the truck.

In fact, truth-be-told, he would probably be better off with a small charger setup if he had BIGGER nozzles than he has now!!! He could shorten the injection window even more and give the fuel even more time in the hole to burn with the available air!

This holds true to the point where the larger holes eventually produce such large droplets that efficiency starts to drop again for that reason, or when in the process of making the holes larger, the efficiency of the hole to atomize fuel is killed, like with EH where the hole is smoothed out too much and you get to much laminar flow instead of the turbulent flow needed to bust the fuel up.

If a larger nozzle can make the same power as a smaller one while smoking less, using less pump and running lower EGT how do you figure that would be "treading water"?

Lowering EGT, raising rail pressure and controlling smoke are important things. Millions of dollars have been spent toward those goals alone.

But most importantly, your continued response of just "adding air" totally ignores the fact that he hasn't mentioned the truck being low on power, unless I missed it. He says it's way too hot, especially at part throttle. That is classic tuning. If he said the chargers were really doggy that would be different, but he said they were coming up fine, it's just hot all the time. Classic excess pw.

Secondly, "adding more air" costs money. And time for the hood to be up with things being physically changed out on the engine.

Lastly..... if the problem really is a part-throttle, then a bigger charger setup might actually worsen the issue if they don't come up in the mid-range as well, and it never fixes a mismatch between desired rail vs pw for a given pedal position! Truck would still be smokey and doggy with rail trying to chase the pw all the time. It also would do nothing to fix the extra resources being drained from the injection pump due to the injectors being held open too long!

Money, money, money and never actually hit the real issue, just keep chasing it with hardware.

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

All in saying is I'd rather make a tune change than a nozzel change. Smarter not harder. Atleaat that's what they teach you in engineering school...

My point being its a bandaid ( halfass ) fix and defeats the purpose of having a larger nozzle to begin with.

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

One last time and I promise I will not waste any more bandwidth.

You seem incapable of understanding that reducing pulsewidth on a larger nozzle does NOT produce the SAME power! A larger nozzle can make MORE power run COOLER and have LESS smoke while using NO MORE pump!

This is because it injects the SAME amount of fuel much QUICKER...

Fuel quantity determines your pump demand and subsequently your rail sustained. However, injection DURATION determines the efficiency of that burn, all else constant.

A larger nozzle allows you to run the SAME quantity, with better injection window timing. And by dumping the excess and DETRIMENTAL pulsewidth on the end, you would simultaneously stop running his single pump into the ground, regain a proper rail to pw ratio possibly make even more power than he's making now if rail's dropping horribly, or worse case only lose a bit of power compared to where he's at now while bringing EGT right in check, costing nothing aside from some time on a keyboard and requiring no work done to the truck.

In fact, truth-be-told, he would probably be better off with a small charger setup if he had BIGGER nozzles than he has now!!! He could shorten the injection window even more and give the fuel even more time in the hole to burn with the available air!

This holds true to the point where the larger holes eventually produce such large droplets that efficiency starts to drop again for that reason, or when in the process of making the holes larger, the efficiency of the hole to atomize fuel is killed, like with EH where the hole is smoothed out too much and you get to much laminar flow instead of the turbulent flow needed to bust the fuel up.

If a larger nozzle can make the same power as a smaller one while smoking less, using less pump and running lower EGT how do you figure that would be "treading water"?

Lowering EGT, raising rail pressure and controlling smoke are important things. Millions of dollars have been spent toward those goals alone.

Never once denied it wouldn't make more power, it won't be much more and certainly not what the nozzle is capable of.

What you're missing is its a waste of having the larger nozzles to begin with. Why live with only a fraction of what it can do and call it good? Why not follow through and do it right? Maybe my work ethic and pride in workmanship is higher that yours I dunno. But if it were me I'd follow through all the way.

Besides, what other big power 6.4's are running around out there under aired with their PW dialed way back to make it livable?

I'd have the air to match the fuel and make it just as liveable and run much stronger. Unless I missed it I didn't read any where that he said he was broke and couldn't swing a turbo upgrade. Low pressure drop in's are are relatively cheap and would do a far better job of curbing his egt's and make more power.

I'm done arguing about it, its not my truck. I could care less at this point.

Good night.

 

[Charles]

Never once denied it wouldn't make more power, it won't be much more and certainly not what the nozzle is capable of.

So if you don't totally stretch every nozzle all the way out until you're damn near spraying fuel out the exhaust valve with a 5 story wall of smoke behind you you're just not doing it right or what? If the stock nozzle on a 6.4 is capable of over 600hp why do you suppose they were selected for an engine that only produces mid 300's??? Why on earth did the 6.4 come with a nozzle selected for 350 or so hp that you and yours could stretch out to 600+??? Because in order to make that 350 efficiently, the nozzle didn't need to be spraying over a massive window trying to melt the pistons into the ground, spraying all over the cylinder walls with timing trying to get the event kicked off early enough and rolling coal in a stock truck just trying to run rated power like a moron.

What you're missing is its a waste of having the larger nozzles to begin with. Why live with only a fraction of what it can do and call it good? Why not follow through and do it right? Maybe my work ethic and pride in workmanship is higher that yours I dunno. But if it were me I'd follow through all the way.

Picking up power, lowering egt, lowering smoke, increasing how crisp the truck responds.....

Yeah, that sounds like a waste, lol. Gee, why not just leave the stock nozzles on and drive around smoking like a train and running hot and doggy attempting to make the same power. Obvious answer? Because most people like power to be higher, not lower, egt to be lower, not higher and smoke to be lower, not higher. Captain obvious right?

You on the other hand want to take the new nozzles that CORRECT the problem the stock nozzles had of being too slow and dick them into the ground just like you had your stock nozzles dicked over by stretching them out as far as you can, possibly to the point of actually LOSING power compared to lower pw values and then blaming the charger setup over and over again. The only reason the pw values run on the stock nozzles were run was to compensate for the nozzles being too small! Not because more injection window makes more power!

Besides, what other big power 6.4's are running around out there under aired with their PW dialed way back to make it livable?

I already said you people must be tuning poor because so many of you try to fix tuning problems with hardware. Secondly, increasing power doesn't seem to be the problem. I mean why are you not running 1500+hp all the time? Just half-assing it or what? Obviously a setup and state of tune are put together to match a power goal. Your idea seems to be to drain your bank account upping components. Do you depend on your bank account to pick a power goal for you? Most people pick a power level they feel they can support maintenance-wise in terms of trans, engine and related driveline component failures and failure rates for the intended use. On a DD the acceptable broken sh*t all the time rate usually dictates the power goal. Pick a nozzle efficient at the power. Not one that can be pressed to it's very limit to barely get there while rolling massive coal all the time, but one that can do it as easily as possible while still delivering the most acceptable idle and part-throttle driveability.

I'd have the air to match the fuel and make it just as liveable and run much stronger. Unless I missed it I didn't read any where that he said he was broke and couldn't swing a turbo upgrade. Low pressure drop in's are are relatively cheap and would do a far better job of curbing his egt's and make more power.

I'm done arguing about it, its not my truck. I could care less at this point.

Good night.

How does a turbocharger fix the overtaxing of his injection pump? How does it get the rail to pw ratio back in control so that he can finally move his right foot and get some rail without killing everything off with the program also calling for pw that cancels it right back out????

It doesn't. Because the turbo isn't the problem. The turbo just helps mask it.

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

Who said that? I'm saying using 25% ( for example ) of the nozzles ability vs 75% of its ability is pointless. Just swap the stock ones on at that point. If you need to dial the fuel back to keep it happy you have either too much nozzle or not enough air. Pretty simple.

 

[Charles]

Who said that? I'm saying using 25% ( for example ) of the nozzles ability vs 75% of its ability is pointless. Just swap the stock ones on at that point. If you need to dial the fuel back to keep it happy you have either too much nozzle or not enough air. Pretty simple.

Who would choose to run a nozzle that runs hotter, smokes more and makes less power for a given engine setup?

You really are being a moron.

:morons:

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

Who would choose to run a nozzle that runs hotter, smokes more and makes less power for a given engine setup?

You really are being a moron.

:morons:

The cart was put before the horse, too much nozzle and not enough air to burn all the fuel it can put out. I suggested adding more air to balance it out ( completely logical BTW ) and that makes me a moron.... Got it.

Mean while you suggest turning the nozzle down to the point of an almost stock like tune and leave the air situation as is. But you're not the moron for wasting the point in having a larger nozzle ( using its potential ).

So in summary, you say its hot out so put on a jacket. I say turn the AC on and that makes me a fool.

Well enjoy that logic, you know walking through life stubbing your metaphorical toe on everything.

 

[Rubenk]

I know I'd much rather reload a tune over changing nozzles and/or buying and installing a turbo...

Now obviously his upgrade path is laid out, but maybe more mechanical changes aren't available right at the moment? Adjust the tune then add air when budget and time allow.

You're both correct IMO.

 

[97stoker350]

Both offer up an option... Just one makes worlds more sense than the other...

 

[Charles]

The cart was put before the horse, too much nozzle and not enough air to burn all the fuel it can put out. I suggested adding more air to balance it out ( completely logical BTW ) and that makes me a moron.... Got it.

You can't understand that for a given charger setup a BIGGER nozzle will make more power because it can get the required fuel in the hole quick enough that it has time to make use of the available air. EGT will come down, power will go up, smoke will go down. Running the stock nozzles in his case would drag the event out requiring all that pw his program has in it and dooming the setup to be low powered and smokey.

On the flip side, if a compound setup for instance is sized appropriately for an engine it will usually be running around HALF of it's available pressure! So if you drive around with a compound setup running 60 to 70lbs of boost instead of the 120 to 150 or so the setup could EASILY produce and be happy, does that do the same thing for your brain? Do you just want to do a solid machined block, fire rings and full bitch everything else or do you set the gate so the charger setup is EFFICIENT and makes the desired power??? Is a compound setup where each compressor could loaf and do 120+ just a total "waste" and "pointless" when operated at 70psi???

That's your logic with nozzles. Your logic applied to turbocharging would be that if you're not spinning the compressor to the point of near overspeed with flames coming out the discharge then it's just a waste..... yet for some reason with turbochargers your brain doesn't fail like it does with nozzles. With turbochargers your brain can handle the fact that a set with more capacity when strung all the way out is actually very efficient when run in the heart of the compressor efficiency islands as opposed to overdriving a smaller set near choke. Have the turbocharging department in your brain talk to the nozzle department if you would.

Mean while you suggest turning the nozzle down to the point of an almost stock like tune and leave the air situation as is. But you're not the moron for wasting the point in having a larger nozzle ( using its potential ).

You really can't understand that there are two, 2, II, dos, deux dimensions controlling the fuel in the hole. One is duration, and the other is pressure. In your mind there's just a "FUEL" knob somewhere that gets twisted to the right or the left, lol. For whatever reason you refuse to understand that the larger nozzle can inject fuel QUICKER!!! The problem is not more or less fuel, it is injection duration with respect to crank angle travel. With a larger nozzle you can reduce the engine timing and pop the fuel in the hole right where you want it giving the engine a timing break and a thermal break because the fuel has all that extra time to be BURNING, not sitting behind the nozzle waiting it's turn to even get INTO the cylinder to START burning before the exhaust valve opens!

The point of a larger nozzle is to inject fuel quicker! As power comes up, you have to get the fuel through the nozzle faster and faster. The only reason that programming ever even dials the pw UP in the first place is to try and drag power out of a nozzle beyond the point where the nozzle was quick enough. Trust me, the OEM engineers didn't pick the injection window they did because it was NOT efficient for that engine!

You don't need to "turn the fuel down".... you need to undo the *** up which was "turning the fuel up" that happened on a stock nozzle before you started changing hardware.

Changing hardware was the correct approach to pick up power to begin with, but you dragged out the pw in the program instead of doing it right and going to a bigger nozzle when you wanted more power when the truck was otherwise STOCK! The truck smokes, runs hot and efficiency is down.

Then once you exhausted that approach you finally go to larger nozzles but forget to set the injection window back to a suitable duration, so things are still ***ed up on the larger nozzles now. But since the larger nozzles are CAPABLE of flowing much more fuel, the programming that was purposefully dicked over to force the stock nozzles to try and work back when you were half-assing it and should have been upping nozzle not pw in the first place now kicks the sh*t out of your pump, and sprays fuel so late and inefficient that you start blaming the charger setup.

But for some reason you can't use tuning to correct the larger nozzle back to an appropriate injection window, you say it's a hardware deficiency, yet the only reason the pw is so high in the first place is because to begin with you made a program change dialing in pw on a truck INSTEAD of correctly making a hardware change and increasing the nozzle size!!!

lol.

You ***ed up the software when you should have been making a hardware change, then refuse to correct the software after finally making the needed hardware change!

That's what's so funny. You talk about half-assing it, yet you half-assing it is what got your program so ***ed up in the first place back when you did intake, exhaust and a chip, then drove around hot and smokey for that power.

So in summary, you say its hot out so put on a jacket. I say turn the AC on and that makes me a fool.

Well enjoy that logic, you know walking through life stubbing your metaphorical toe on everything.

Using your example, above the reality would be it's cold in a room, but the weather is fine outside so lets open the window. Problem is the window is too small to keep the room comfy, so you crank on the heater. Fine, but you're wasting energy when all you needed to do was install a larger window in the first place, but whatever. So you really want it a little warmer than the heater can make it so you finally get around to installing a larger window and now whoa.... it's waaaay to hot in here, so your answer? Well, better crank on an AC unit now to cool things back off..

All I'm saying is just turn the G'damn heater off that you shouldn't have ever turned on in the first place...

 

[SEABEE08FX4]

I've said all there is to say, carry on. Watch your toe Charles.

 

[StrokiNDieseL]

One last time and I promise I will not waste any more bandwidth.

You seem incapable of understanding that reducing pulsewidth on a larger nozzle does NOT produce the SAME power! A larger nozzle can make MORE power run COOLER and have LESS smoke while using NO MORE pump!

This is because it injects the SAME amount of fuel much QUICKER...

Fuel quantity determines your pump demand and subsequently your rail sustained. However, injection DURATION determines the efficiency of that burn, all else constant.

A larger nozzle allows you to run the SAME quantity, with better injection window timing. And by dumping the excess and DETRIMENTAL pulsewidth on the end, you would simultaneously stop running his single pump into the ground, regain a proper rail to pw ratio possibly make even more power than he's making now if rail's dropping horribly, or worse case only lose a bit of power compared to where he's at now while bringing EGT right in check, costing nothing aside from some time on a keyboard and requiring no work done to the truck.

In fact, truth-be-told, he would probably be better off with a small charger setup if he had BIGGER nozzles than he has now!!! He could shorten the injection window even more and give the fuel even more time in the hole to burn with the available air!

This holds true to the point where the larger holes eventually produce such large droplets that efficiency starts to drop again for that reason, or when in the process of making the holes larger, the efficiency of the hole to atomize fuel is killed, like with EH where the hole is smoothed out too much and you get to much laminar flow instead of the turbulent flow needed to bust the fuel up.

If a larger nozzle can make the same power as a smaller one while smoking less, using less pump and running lower EGT how do you figure that would be "treading water"?

Lowering EGT, raising rail pressure and controlling smoke are important things. Millions of dollars have been spent toward those goals alone.

But most importantly, your continued response of just "adding air" totally ignores the fact that he hasn't mentioned the truck being low on power, unless I missed it. He says it's way too hot, especially at part throttle. That is classic tuning. If he said the chargers were really doggy that would be different, but he said they were coming up fine, it's just hot all the time. Classic excess pw.

Secondly, "adding more air" costs money. And time for the hood to be up with things being physically changed out on the engine.

Lastly..... if the problem really is a part-throttle, then a bigger charger setup might actually worsen the issue if they don't come up in the mid-range as well, and it never fixes a mismatch between desired rail vs pw for a given pedal position! Truck would still be smokey and doggy with rail trying to chase the pw all the time. It also would do nothing to fix the extra resources being drained from the injection pump due to the injectors being held open too long!

Money, money, money and never actually hit the real issue, just keep chasing it with hardware.

Thanks for your time & education. Trucks not patty at all just 1/2 throttle is see increase. Jayson

 

[StrokiNDieseL]

I know I'd much rather reload a tune over changing nozzles and/or buying and installing a turbo...

Now obviously his upgrade path is laid out, but maybe more mechanical changes aren't available right at the moment? Adjust the tune then add air when budget and time allow.

You're both correct IMO.

I'm thinking about this route.