Independent Injector Comparison

[kyle43335]

This is at 3600 RPM, 1000 shot.. Max P/W

Let the responses come "flowing" in..

whats the max p/w and icp pressure,that these were tested at?

 

[windrunner408]

This is at 3600 RPM, 1000 shot.. Max P/W

Let the responses come "flowing" in..

What am I looking at?? Dont mean to be difficult but what is what in this pic?

 

[hawgdoctor]

It's a video. Click on it....

 

[DevilDocTater]

Jared pm sent

 

[golfer]

(volume) cc's has nothing to do with nozzle size.

(FLOW RATE) cc's PER TIME has everything to do with nozzle size.

for those not familiar with a HEUI injector...

the (7.3L & 6.0L HEUI) injs are basically a syringe...a tube of caulk, if you will...

regardless of how large a HOLE you cut in the end of the tube of caulk...it's still only 24 ounces...

the size of the hole (nozzle size), the force on the plunger(ICP pressure) determines how quickly that volume will empty...or not empty...in a given time (injector pulse width).

I'm not at all arguing that a larger nozzle will not increase the flow RATE of an injector...but for someone to say that changing nozzles somehow affects the total displacement (max cc rating) of an injector is 100% incorrect.

I could weld closed 5 holes on an injector nozzle...leaving only one hole to flow on a "200cc" injector...

it's still a 200cc injector...but it would just take a long time to empty

cutting the nozzle completely OFF of the injector (think single 1/4" orifice, LOL) also would not change the internal maximum displacement of the injector...it would still only flow 200cc's...it would just be flowing it at a fraction of the TIME of the 'plugged' nozzle...

but I could set up a flowbench to flow these injectors (one tiny hole...one HUGE hole) side by side in a flowbench...and I could make them flow exaccccctlly the same amount of fuel in 1000 shots...but the requested DURATION (pulsewidth) would have to be long enough for the plugged up nozzle to empty.< think 7-8ms LOL...

cc rating is an injs maximum capacity
nozzle determines the rate.

it's that simple.

 

[kyle43335]

(volume) cc's has nothing to do with nozzle size.

(FLOW RATE) cc's PER TIME has everything to do with nozzle size.

for those not familiar with a HEUI injector...

the (7.3L & 6.0L HEUI) injs are basically a syringe...a tube of caulk, if you will...

regardless of how large a HOLE you cut in the end of the tube of caulk...it's still only 24 ounces...

the size of the hole (nozzle size), the force on the plunger(ICP pressure) determines how quickly that volume will empty...or not empty...in a given time (injector pulse width).

I'm not at all arguing that a larger nozzle will not increase the flow RATE of an injector...but for someone to say that changing nozzles somehow affects the total displacement (max cc rating) of an injector is 100% incorrect.

I could weld closed 5 holes on an injector nozzle...leaving only one hole to flow on a "200cc" injector...

it's still a 200cc injector...but it would just take a long time to empty

cutting the nozzle completely OFF of the injector (think single 1/4" orifice, LOL) also would not change the internal maximum displacement of the injector...it would still only flow 200cc's...it would just be flowing it at a fraction of the TIME of the 'plugged' nozzle...

but I could set up a flowbench to flow these injectors (one tiny hole...one HUGE hole) side by side in a flowbench...and I could make them flow exaccccctlly the same amount of fuel in 1000 shots...but the requested DURATION (pulsewidth) would have to be long enough for the plugged up nozzle to empty.< think 7-8ms LOL...

cc ratiung is an injs maximum capacity
nozzle determines the rate.

it's that simple.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[windrunner408]

:whs: that is what I was trying to get across.

 

[windrunner408]

It's a video. Click on it....

Got it. Thanks man.

So yea just like the predictions. At a given pulse width with two identically sized (capacity wise) injectors, the larger nozzle will flow more fuel. I guess this also makes sense as to why the 175/stock injectors barely flowed more than a regular stock injector.

 

[T_HOFFR11]

(volume) cc's has nothing to do with nozzle size.

(FLOW RATE) cc's PER TIME has everything to do with nozzle size.

for those not familiar with a HEUI injector...

the (7.3L & 6.0L HEUI) injs are basically a syringe...a tube of caulk, if you will...

regardless of how large a HOLE you cut in the end of the tube of caulk...it's still only 24 ounces...

the size of the hole (nozzle size), the force on the plunger(ICP pressure) determines how quickly that volume will empty...or not empty...in a given time (injector pulse width).

I'm not at all arguing that a larger nozzle will not increase the flow RATE of an injector...but for someone to say that changing nozzles somehow affects the total displacement (max cc rating) of an injector is 100% incorrect.

I could weld closed 5 holes on an injector nozzle...leaving only one hole to flow on a "200cc" injector...

it's still a 200cc injector...but it would just take a long time to empty

cutting the nozzle completely OFF of the injector (think single 1/4" orifice, LOL) also would not change the internal maximum displacement of the injector...it would still only flow 200cc's...it would just be flowing it at a fraction of the TIME of the 'plugged' nozzle...

but I could set up a flowbench to flow these injectors (one tiny hole...one HUGE hole) side by side in a flowbench...and I could make them flow exaccccctlly the same amount of fuel in 1000 shots...but the requested DURATION (pulsewidth) would have to be long enough for the plugged up nozzle to empty.< think 7-8ms LOL...

cc rating is an injs maximum capacity
nozzle determines the rate.

it's that simple.

Thanks for clearing that up! We were not planning on getting that detailed. All we are trying to illustrate is that at max pw(2.4) for a 6.0 using a 75% nozzle on a 175cc displacment injector allows you to flow more fuel than if you were to use a stock nozzle on the same 175cc injector. We have had a lot of questions from customers wondering why we will not use a stock nozzle on our performance injectors like some other companies choose to use! That was the purpose of the video...Hope it helps out!:thumbup:

 

[golfer]

Thanks for clearing that up! We were not planning on getting that detailed. All we are trying to illustrate is that at max pw(2.4) for a 6.0 using a 75% nozzle on a 175cc displacment injector allows you to flow more fuel than if you were to use a stock nozzle on the same 175cc injector. We have had a lot of questions from customers wondering why we will not use a stock nozzle on our performance injectors like some other companies choose to use! That was the purpose of the video...Hope it helps out!:thumbup:

no problem...

I guess I'm a little unclear on the 'max pulsewidth of 2.4ms'..is that the limit of the flow bench you were using?

I wouldn't call that "max PW"...I would simply call that 2.4ms pulsewidth....duration.

but nice to injectors being tested!

 

[Dave]

They will both flow 175 cc's of fuel.

The 50% nozzle with just empty faster.

(volume) cc's has nothing to do with nozzle size.

(FLOW RATE) cc's PER TIME has everything to do with nozzle size.

for those not familiar with a HEUI injector...

the (7.3L & 6.0L HEUI) injs are basically a syringe...a tube of caulk, if you will...

regardless of how large a HOLE you cut in the end of the tube of caulk...it's still only 24 ounces...

the size of the hole (nozzle size), the force on the plunger(ICP pressure) determines how quickly that volume will empty...or not empty...in a given time (injector pulse width).

I'm not at all arguing that a larger nozzle will not increase the flow RATE of an injector...but for someone to say that changing nozzles somehow affects the total displacement (max cc rating) of an injector is 100% incorrect.

I could weld closed 5 holes on an injector nozzle...leaving only one hole to flow on a "200cc" injector...

it's still a 200cc injector...but it would just take a long time to empty

cutting the nozzle completely OFF of the injector (think single 1/4" orifice, LOL) also would not change the internal maximum displacement of the injector...it would still only flow 200cc's...it would just be flowing it at a fraction of the TIME of the 'plugged' nozzle...

but I could set up a flowbench to flow these injectors (one tiny hole...one HUGE hole) side by side in a flowbench...and I could make them flow exaccccctlly the same amount of fuel in 1000 shots...but the requested DURATION (pulsewidth) would have to be long enough for the plugged up nozzle to empty.< think 7-8ms LOL...

cc rating is an injs maximum capacity
nozzle determines the rate.

it's that simple.

Take a 3 milliliter syringe and fill it. Did it hold more than 3ml? Nope.

 

[wetnsloppy4x]

This is at 3600 RPM, 1000 shot.. Max P/W

Let the responses come "flowing" in..

This is also at 2.46ms p/w for those questioning

So 2.46ms is the max pulse width in the ECM?

If that is the case, I think a real world race tune p/w at a real world race tune RPM redline would be a little more informative. I'm talking a tune that is set up for "perfect world" conditions using the right size of stick and nozzle, not a bandaided tune trying to compensate for less than optimal parts for the setup.

Don't get me wrong, it's no brainer that the larger nozzled injector will empty quicker given the same p/w. I think it would be usefull info to know where the crossover point is in relation to injector size and p/w.

Say your tune needs a p/w of 1.8 ms @ 4000 RPM for an optimal injection event (made up numbers). What % of nozzle does the 175cc need to empty in that time. What % nozzle would a 190cc to empty in that time? What about a 205cc, and so on. See what I'm getting at?

The way I understand it, the optimal p/w is the optimal p/w regardless of injector size. The injection event needs to happen in the optimal desired window of crank angle regardless of injector size. What we need to know is what each partiular size of injector needs for a nozzle size in order to empty in that optimal window and still maintain good atomazation.

A guy can throw 100% nozzles at 190cc sticks all day long, but does it need that 100%?

Am I articulating my thoughts in a way anyone else understands?

 

[windrunner408]

I think they were saying that 2.4ms is the max pw that a 6.0 can do. I agree though, just call it 2.4ms of pw and be done. JMO.

 

[JAP]

Is it just me? Or is it weird that this is JUST coming up?

 

[windrunner408]

yea I would have thought that this would have been discussed years ago. Something new everyday.

 

[windrunner408]

Don't get me wrong, it's no brainer that the larger nozzled injector will empty quicker given the same p/w. I think it would be usefull info to know where the crossover point is in relation to injector size and p/w.

Say your tune needs a p/w of 1.8 ms @ 4000 RPM for an optimal injection event (made up numbers). What % of nozzle does the 175cc need to empty in that time. What % nozzle would a 190cc to empty in that time? What about a 205cc, and so on. See what I'm getting at?

The way I understand it, the optimal p/w is the optimal p/w regardless of injector size. The injection event needs to happen in the optimal desired window of crank angle regardless of injector size. What we need to know is what each partiular size of injector needs for a nozzle size in order to empty in that optimal window and still maintain good atomazation.

Makes sense that in order to get the highest amount of power with the least amount of cylinder pressure that there would be an optimal PW. I am not sure how to go about figuring that out.

Thinking out loud it would seem that you could increase PW for a given rpm and monitor power and cylinder pressures as the PW goes up. When power stops going up and cylinder pressures jump up, then I would say you hit your optimal PW. But doesnt folks who do live tuning do something similar so that they end up with the most efficient power?? Hope I am making sense.

 

[Pizza pig]

Thanks Jared for this post man, just proving to those that if youre upgrading your injectors, replace the darn nozzles and do it right. Cant afford it, dont mod your truck :blitzed:

 

[windrunner408]

Cant afford it, dont mod your truck :blitzed:

:whs: AMEN, words to live by. :blitzed:

 

[wetnsloppy4x]

Makes sense that in order to get the highest amount of power with the least amount of cylinder pressure that there would be an optimal PW. I am not sure how to go about figuring that out.

Neither am I. I would wager that the top tuners (Eric, Matt, Vivian, RCD, etc.) know what this number is though.

Somebody get Charles in here. I imagine he'd have some insight as well. At the very least, he could likely give a well articulated explanation of how to get in the ballpark. I seem to remember him discussing the relationship between crank angle, RPM (piston speed), and p/w.

 

[T_HOFFR11]

no problem...

I guess I'm a little unclear on the 'max pulsewidth of 2.4ms'..is that the limit of the flow bench you were using?

I wouldn't call that "max PW"...I would simply call that 2.4ms pulsewidth....duration.

but nice to injectors being tested!

Yeah I was just saying Max pw(2.4) for a 6.0 FICM.

And to answer some of your other questions our 175/75%...180/75%...190/100%...205/100% and so on...