Options for Compounds with a 38R

[TARM]

What are your HP goals?

Your engine's heads, are they using studs only or are they fire ringed as well?

 

[DocBar]

I'm all about 400/400 injectors and getting a do everything setup - BUT ARE YOU SURE that you are willing to put in the time, headache, frustration, of dialing in a set of these injectors for daily duties? I'm well aware of some of the issues that you have had getting your current setup dialed in and keeping it there and wish to express my concerns about such an ambitious setup without very intimate knowledge about the functionality of the systems as well as the tuning aspects.

In other words - I believe what you want can most certainly be done - but take note that the only people that HAVE done so also happen to do their own tuning to make it happen to a level where they are happy with it.

Just my 2 cents.

Much appreciated 2 cents. I'm approaching this much more carefully than my original build and will be much more involved with building it, if I don't end up doing it all minus the tuning. I simply don;t have the knowledge to tune yet. My plan includes a fairly liberal budget for live tuning to help with this. I won't actually put anything on my truck without being able to spend the time to get it tuned up properly and be in the area of the tuner for a bit. I'm actually considering getting a toy hauler 5er so I can load my tools, welder, air compressor, etc up and take them with me. I'm not bad at wrenching, but I hate to do it without the proper tools.
I might even try to go to the University of PHP while I'm only 2 hours from Bill's shop and learn some tuning before I do this. That would probably be a good idea, eh?

What are your HP goals?

Your engine's heads, are they using studs only or are they fire ringed as well?

I'm looking for ~650+ (start there with room to grow)for racing/dyno's. I'm just using studs on the heads.

 

[Groomzybanshee]

Go with a 350-200 from cass you'll be glad you did.

 

[DocBar]

Go with a 350-200 from cass you'll be glad you did.

Is the biggest difference with them in the tuning? I was planning on the 400/400's to allow for room to grow. I'll definitely explore all of the options. I'm not 100% dead set on anything yet.

 

[PowerstrokeJunkie]

you are looking to grow TO 650 hp, not to 1050 HP. go with the 200% quit being stubborn

 

[TyCorr]

you are looking to grow TO 650 hp, not to 1050 HP. go with the 200% quit being stubborn

Dont ya think a 300% nozzle would be.better there? Be pushing things pretty hard with 200% to get 650. For 650 Id want, personally speaking, a 300/300...

 

[PowerstrokeJunkie]

Yet again, reasses your goals.. go ride around in a truck with actual streetable 650hp (much less find one) and then realize you dont need 650.

 

[TyCorr]

Yet again, reasses your goals.. go ride around in a truck with actual streetable 650hp (much less find one) and then realize you dont need 650.

Well, its probably not going to gave one big charger. First issue. I dont like the things you.have to.do with hpo to.get into that territory. Dual hpops never appealed to me.

 

[Groomzybanshee]

Listen to junkie..

 

[V-Ref]

Docbar- interested in how you finally obtain your goals.

What are they exactly again?
Power level-
Highest altitude-
Heaviest towing-
Cold(est) Wx-
DD%/towing%/sled pulling%/drag racing%-

My 2 cents would be as specific as you can when determining your use for your truck, as I think this will allow you to be very specific on the route you take to get you there.

Is there a dialed in 650 hp compound 7.3 you could ride in while your in the SE USA?

 

[DocBar]

you are looking to grow TO 650 hp, not to 1050 HP. go with the 200% quit being stubborn

I said I wanted to get to 650 with room to grow, not end at 650. :slap:

Yet again, reasses your goals.. go ride around in a truck with actual streetable 650hp (much less find one) and then realize you dont need 650.

I've been thinking about this. I'm extremely happy with how the truck is running right now. Matt has the truck running like a stock one til I stab the go pedal. I'm not a big fan of a touchy pedal. Having said that, I'm putting down 500RWHP in Matt's hot tune, according to Bill's dyno, and I'm pretty bored with it now. Everybody I've talked to has sang the praises of compounds, so they seem like a natural progression to me. Maybe I should reassess the HP goal and just add the atmospheric turbo, go to 200% injectors and call it day with what I have and be in the 550-600hp range? That would save money, be fairly practical and I could still have all the fun that goes with compounds.

Well, its probably not going to gave one big charger. First issue. I dont like the things you.have to.do with hpo to.get into that territory. Dual hpops never appealed to me.

This is an areea that concerns me. I like the theory of dual HPOP's and dual IPR's, but what kind of headaches will they produce? It seems like a crapshoot with them. Some love them, some hate them.

Listen to junkie..

Could you expound on your ideas about my plan? I'd really like to hear them.

 

[TyCorr]

I said I wanted to get to 650 with room to grow, not end at 650. :slap:

I've been thinking about this. I'm extremely happy with how the truck is running right now. Matt has the truck running like a stock one til I stab the go pedal. I'm not a big fan of a touchy pedal. Having said that, I'm putting down 500RWHP in Matt's hot tune, according to Bill's dyno, and I'm pretty bored with it now. Everybody I've talked to has sang the praises of compounds, so they seem like a natural progression to me. Maybe I should reassess the HP goal and just add the atmospheric turbo, go to 200% injectors and call it day with what I have and be in the 550-600hp range? That would save money, be fairly practical and I could still have all the fun that goes with compounds.

This is an areea that concerns me. I like the theory of dual HPOP's and dual IPR's, but what kind of headaches will they produce? It seems like a crapshoot with them. Some love them, some hate them.

Could you expound on your ideas about my plan? I'd really like to hear them.

I mostly notice.that diagnosing hard starts and issues with hpo can be tricky, especially if.you arent well-heeled in hpo systems. Im not, for one. So that would be my sole concern with duals not.knowing.enough. Im sure you'd learn quickly standing inside.the fire.

Putting 200% nozzles on your sticks and adding a stage to what you already have is.going.to make a huge difference. Id attempt that first. If you want more you simply order bigger inj's and source a set of duals and start over again.

 

[DocBar]

Docbar- interested in how you finally obtain your goals.

What are they exactly again?
Power level-Depending on the chip, I'm between 500-560 right now. Realistically, my HP goals are flexible as far as what's realistic for my uses.
Highest altitude-I could be anywhere in the country at any given time. I travel 100% of the time and never know where the next job is.
Heaviest towing-I tow a 12,500# 5er right now(that's loaded with all my stuff) but I'm considering getting a toy hauler for tools and stuff. I only pull this from job to job, so it might be pulled 3-4 times a year max.
Cold(est) Wx-I could be at -40 or +120.
DD%/towing%/sled pulling%/drag racing%- 95% DD,2% towing, 3% drag racing. I've never hooked up to a sled. It looks like fun but also a good way to break things.
My 2 cents would be as specific as you can when determining your use for your truck, as I think this will allow you to be very specific on the route you take to get you there.

Is there a dialed in 650 hp compound 7.3 you could ride in while your in the SE USA?

I'm about a 1/2 from Garmon's Diesel in Griffin, Ga and ~2 hrs from PHP, so I'm hoping I can get some good research in on this between the two. I also plan on picking Bill's brain a bit when I make it up there for a live tuning session on my current set up. I've learned a decent bit by having different tuners work on my truck as far as what I like and don't like. That's not to say that other tuners I've used were bad. My truck ran strong in all of them once my electrical problems were worked out. There are just little things that each do differently. That's one reason I'm taking Jason's words to heart and I'm going to start my tuning education while this is going on.

 

[Groomzybanshee]

My puller with a 3.0 charger and 350/200s was Making in the 650 range... It was not a smokey pig either... Go with twins 350/200s and you'll have a fun clean truck very capable of 650.. If you want more power at the truck add a single stage... Just my opinion..

 

[Charles]

I may have missed it, but did anybody pull 650rwhp on fuel with a 200% nozzle on a 248C?

If so, good work. If not, we might lay off the 200% bandwagon when it comes time to actually make 650hp.

I've never done it myself, so I won't pretend to say what it takes.

 

[DocBar]

I may have missed it, but did anybody pull 650rwhp on fuel with a 200% nozzle on a 248C?

If so, good work. If not, we might lay off the 200% bandwagon when it comes time to actually make 650hp.

I've never done it myself, so I won't pretend to say what it takes.

I haven't seen it. When are you going to cleasn out your mail box so you can get PM's? I'm working an hour south of Atlanta and would love to meet up with you and discuss some of this stuff.

 

[Groomzybanshee]

I may have missed it, but did anybody pull 650rwhp on fuel with a 200% nozzle on a 248C?

If so, good work. If not, we might lay off the 200% bandwagon when it comes time to actually make 650hp.

I've never done it myself, so I won't pretend to say what it takes.

I never made it to the dyno but I made 593 with a smaller charger and 250/200s the truck ran quite a bit better with the big turbo and 350s... So I guess I have no proof of it being 650..

 

[TARM]

Looking at the 4718 I seem to recall Charles having issues with drive pressure once total boost climbed to around 70 psi. Now granted he made 650 so that already would meet these goals. But that got me thinking. The 4718 has a very good comp map as a medium sized amtosphere charger but the turbine wheel is backing things up. What about going with the gt5518 which is basically the 4718 comp map (same wheel size'trim, and comp a/r with the 55s 111mm high flow turbine wheel. You can use the vband housings up to 1.40a/r 80% effiency vs 69% of the gt47 and about 20lb more air/min on the hot turbine side.

With the larger turbine of the 5518 I would think you could stay with a 1.0 housing on the 38r and gethe slightly faster spool up.

Looking at the maps without the drive issues with the larger turbine you could max the system out with 120lb/min with PRs of up to 3:1 on either turbo for up to 120psi. But the sweet spot looks like 55-80psi and 80-100lb/min with PRs from 2-2.5:1 each charger. Plenty far from either edge of the mapand the center efficiency islands.

As I do not have any hands on experince with compounds does this make sense or am I way off. To me it looks like a great mid sized street/tow/do all combo.

 

[DocBar]

Looking at the 4718 I seem to recall Charles having issues with drive pressure once total boost climbed to around 70 psi. Now granted he made 650 so that already would meet these goals. But that got me thinking. The 4718 has a very good comp map as a medium sized amtosphere charger but the turbine wheel is backing things up. What about going with the gt5518 which is basically the 4718 comp map (same wheel size'trim, and comp a/r with the 55s 111mm high flow turbine wheel. You can use the vband housings up to 1.40a/r 80% effiency vs 69% of the gt47 and about 20lb more air/min on the hot turbine side.

With the larger turbine of the 5518 I would think you could stay with a 1.0 housing on the 38r and gethe slightly faster spool up.

Looking at the maps without the drive issues with the larger turbine you could max the system out with 120lb/min with PRs of up to 3:1 on either turbo for up to 120psi. But the sweet spot looks like 55-80psi and 80-100lb/min with PRs from 2-2.5:1 each charger. Plenty far from either edge of the mapand the center efficiency islands.

As I do not have any hands on experince with compounds does this make sense or am I way off. To me it looks like a great mid sized street/tow/do all combo.

Arrrrggggghhhhhh!!!!! Turbo maps make my head hurt. I'm reading all the stuff on Garrett's site, but I'm a slow learner on some stuff. ointlaugh:

 

[TARM]

I started with Garetts site and all their tech info. Then onto boo with Maximum Boost I found the best. Finally conversations with Pius of(f Bell turbos and Jose @ forced inductions (goes by DrTurbo online). It takes a bit ans sometimes I still have to backup and start over as I get back to front but I have come a long way than a few years ago when I didn't even know what a the various turbo terminology was let alone what it meant or how it worked. I am still severly lacking in hands on experince but am working on it. So far singles gtp38, gt38r, a couple OTR pulloffs, gt4294, and the one 8 am curently running a gtx4294r. Working on compounds and electronic control wg systems now. Can make your head hurt agree.

What is frustrating to me is the lack of maps for many of these wheels and the complete lack of public access of complete turbine maps other than these basic single line graphs.